Hreagle

Years ago my Dad was a 442 lover. He had a 1966 automatic convertible, a 1969 hard top, and a 1971 Hardtop. I learned to drive in the 66, and that is probably why I still love Muscle cars today. But here's question I have. I swear that his 1969 442 had a 365hp 455 in it. It was a blue engine with no CAI, and it had a TH 400 transmission. It was faster than hell! I have been told that only the Hurst Olds of that year had a 455 in it. Could this have maybe have been a COPO? What do the experts think?
Eagle

hurst68olds

not an OLDS factory installed 455 in a '69 442

BangScreech4-4-2

Nope.


And if it had one, no way in hell it would have been blue in 1969. What makes you think somebody didn't swap it in?

Hreagle

No one swapped the engine, Dad bought it new from a local Oldsmobile Dealer and he was not a gear head who Modded anything, he just loved his 442's.. As I remember it, it did not have a dark blue engine, it was more of a lighter silvery blue. I was working for Oldsmobile back then and my remembrances from the time was that it was a 365 HP 455. I believe it had those specs on the air cleaner. Somewhere I still have the window sticker so I guess I should find it and see what it says. I know there were COPO chevies like a Nova with a factor 427 so I'm wondering if Oldsmobile could be ordered with an upgraded engine.It is for sure a mystery. If I can find the sticker I'll scan it and post it.
Eagle

scottv442

light blue 455 in 1969 was a Toronado engine color. if your correct in your memory, this engine could have been swapped in at the dealership for many different reasons.

are you certain it was a 1969 and not an earlier delivery of a 1970 442?

joe_padavano

Look, this is easy. All factory installed engines were required by federal law to have a VIN derivative stamp on the block in 1969. Either the stamp on the block matches the VIN of the car or it doesn't. If not, it's not factory installed.

joe_padavano

No Oldsmobile from 1964-1990 ever came from the factory with a decal that had HP rating on the air cleaner (displacement, yes, but not horsepower). Only the 1967 cars had the sticker on the valve cover with HP and torque:

Koda

Not 66, too, Joe, on the VC sticker?

Chevy was allowed a little more BS than Olds, but I don't think any "non big car" got a 400+ cubic inch engine other than the Corvettes and rare oddities like Hurst Olds vehicles. I think the Corvettes were tooling around with 427s until 1970.

I think the odds of a 442 coming with a Toronado colored 455, when that engine was not permitted in them that year, are low. I would believe a red non-Toro 455 a little more.

BangScreech4-4-2

Joe, I think OP is referring to a car he no longer has access to.

joe_padavano

As with most stories of one-of-none cars...

Travlr

GM did some odd things back in the late sixties/early seventies. My father had a brand new 1969 factory 454 Chevy one ton pickup. It burned oil and the engine was replaced under warranty at about six months. There was a stink because the dealership that sold it to my dad didn't believe it was the original engine until they looked up their own paperwork and verified it was a 454.

Over the years I've heard of some other stories too. Chrysler put some oddball drivetrains in some of their products too. At least a few of them were special orders.

joe_padavano

Well, considering that the 454 Chevy motor didn't exist and wasn't installed in any vehicles until the 1970 model year, I can imagine their surprise...

The "anything was possible" story is frequently used by people trying to justify an unbelievable price on a one-of-none car. These stories never offer any proof that such a vehicle existed or was factory built. Time for a little common sense here. Vehicles sold by GM to the general public came with warranties. They had to be serviced by the dealership service department. Parts needed to be available through the parts organization. Engineering documents needed to be created and documented. A factory-built vehicle will always have some sort of corroborating documentation.

Factory parts books document the use of the 455 in the 68-69 H/O cars (and no others). Dealer service bulletins and press releases document the mid-year release of options and configurations not initially covered in other documents. Parts books were updated throughout the year and sometimes parts were superseded. The fact remains that all of these items are corroborating documentation for unusual configurations.

Yes, Oldsmobile DID build one-off cars outside the normal production line. These were NOT available to the general public nor sold commercially. Sometimes these prototypes were given to the motoring press for stories, but they always came back to Olds and usually were crushed when their usefulness was over.

There is exactly ONE example of a non-Hurst built with a 455 in the 1968-69 timeframe that has been documented. This was a 1968 Vista Cruiser with the 68 H/O drivetrain and suspension. We know this car was built because it was featured in Car and Driver Magazine in 1968 in an article entitled Son of Boss Wagon (the original Boss Wagon was a 1966 Fury wagon). This Vista was not a regular production car and was not ever sold to the general public, but it was built by Olds.

The other thing Olds did that many people are not aware of is that they offered engine combinations in Police packages that were not otherwise available to the general public. This is well documented in the Police Equipment part of the SPECS booklet. For example, throughout the 1960s, police departments could order the 400 BBO in nearly any Cutlass, F-85, or wagon with either the B01 or B07 police package despite the fact that this engine was only available in the 442 otherwise. Even better, the L77 400 motor was rated at 350 HP with an automatic whereas the 442 motor was only rated at 325 HP with an AT. In none of these cases was the 455 available in an A-body, however.

This page from the 1968 SPECS booklet is an example.

Travlr

[QUOTE=joe_padavano;1063978]Well, considering that the 454 Chevy motor didn't exist and wasn't installed in any vehicles until the 1970 model year, I can imagine their surprise...

The "anything was possible" story is frequently used by people trying to justify an unbelievable price on a one-of-none car. These stories never offer any proof that such a vehicle existed or was factory built. Time for a little common sense here. Vehicles sold by GM to the general public came with warranties. They had to be serviced by the dealership service department. Parts needed to be available through the parts organization. Engineering documents needed to be created and documented. A factory-built vehicle will always have some sort of corroborating documentation.

Exactly Joe... and that is why the dealership replaced the 454 in the '69 pickup under warranty. I was there. I drove the truck. I put oil in the warrantied engine before it was replaced. I was a party to the conversations at the dealership. And eventually the dealership did the research and verified the 454 in the '69 truck. But if you choose to believe otherwise, nothing will convince you.

And of course the 454 "existed" before 1970. Besides the fact that '70 trucks began manufacture in mid '69, the engine had a development period before it was approved for general use.

Carshinebob

Here we go. Joe Padavano is right but there are a few exceptions. The number one and two pace cars (originally in the budget for the pace car program at Olds marketing) from 1970, 1972 and 1974 were sold to the public though dealerships as was the 1970 engineering parts runner (a red and white w-30 convertible). Prior to 1975 models, an engineering test car or a marketing car had to be purchased by each department. So if a car could be put back to stock and resold as a used car or demonstrator, the selling price could be put back into the budget for each department. This I learned when having dinner with Bob Jarboe sometime in 1999. So about the O.P.s question. In my opinion it could have been possible a 69 was built with a 455, however most times a car like that went to someone well connected with Oldsmobile (possibly in house or racing) and would be highly unlikely to be sold to an average customer. ~BOB

Travlr

And that's what we are talking about... the exceptions. Jeeze guys, call me a liar if you want but I know two vehicles from personal experience that had drivetrains from the factory which are not documented by the general specs claimed for their years.

BangScreech4-4-2

I would never call you a liar. But for some reason, peoples' memories become especially unreliable when it comes to stories about cars. Just ask me about the '68 Camaro SS I had that was built with a special order L-79 327, or my '68 4-4-2 W-30 that the factory neglected to put red inners on.


Merry Christmas.

Travlr

[QUOTE='69442ragtop;1064031]I would never call you a liar. But for some reason, peoples' memories become especially unreliable when it comes to stories about cars. Just ask me about the '68 Camaro SS I had that was built with a special order L-79 327, or my '68 4-4-2 W-30 that the factory neglected to put red inners on.


Well I didn't imagine the arguments with the dealership, or how they apologized once they investigated their own sales records and warrantied the engine. Nor did I imagine having to use my own '55 truck for work while the '69 was getting the new engine.

Travlr

Doing a little surfing about COPO cars I ran into this posted on the Supercar Registry on yenko.net, a forum discussing oddball car orders..

How about OWCO. Or Oldsmobile Wholseale Car order. In 1972`the two hurst olds models could be ordered on one of these forms using a code called Select-A-Unit. Dealers were instructed to use the OWCO form and select code 21 for W-46 or 22 for W-46. Codes w-45 and W46 were used for 1968 1969 1970 (Rallyee 350) and 1972. I am not sure about later years. Oldmobile was not big in the fleet business like Chevrolet (not having a truck division) so the concept of a special fleet division was not as prominent. The SX started as a Turnpike Cruiser option in 1967.

Kind of out of context, but if the factory was making both COPO and OWCO Oldsmobiles for the years 1968 through 1972 then I don't see why some odd cars couldn't have slid through the cracks. But use your own judgement, as you are the only one with a memory of the car.

JohnnyBs68S

Similar things have happened more recently too where cars that "don't exist" in the order books get built. I've been very active on the LS1.com and LS1Tech.com boards since the purchase of my '98 WS6 'vert in Sept of '98. Since then I was able to compile option breakdowns on all of the 4th gen F-bodies ('93-'02) from the VIN / RPO database on CompNine.com (back when it was sill "free" to access), which is tied closely with GM's VIS database. A few oddities that I've found:

1) In '98, the order books for Firebirds would not allow a convertible Formula to be purchased. If you wanted a V8 convertible, you had to step up to the Trans Am trim. Formulas had been available in earlier years in the convertible body, but that stopped in '98. Yet, I had previously seen a breakdown of '98 WS6s that indicated that two Formula convertibles with the WS6 RPO were built. Sure enough, those two cars showed up in the RPO database, both were red, one had a black top w/ a M6, the other had a white top with a A4. The story on these two cars was that a dealership in Kansas had ordered them in '97, and due to delays, Pontiac had to fulfill them with '98 MY cars. One of these showed up for sale and I was able to verify the RPO codes on the door decal matched what was in CompNine's database.

2) There were a small handful of '96 MY Camaros built that contained RPO LS1 instead of LT1. I suspect that these were "mules" that were used for LS1 engine development. I don't know if any of them ever showed up "in the wild", but their existence remains in the database.

3) There were two '98 Trans Am coupes built that had a hard-top (no T-tops), and 2 that were built with cloth interiors (1 was pewter and the other taupe). The sales and order literature indicated that T-tops and leather interior came standard on all Trans Ams, and the only way to get a hard-top or cloth interior was in a Firebird or Formula trim. I do not know for sure if the same two hardtop cars were the two with cloth interiors. Yet, there exist promotional photos of one of these cars (can't confirm the interior from the photo). Again, I suspect that that they were pre-production "mules" that were built prior to Pontiac finalizing the order sheet and used for promotional photos.

joe_padavano

My point is, those cars are documented. Also, they did not use "unavailable" drivetrain combos. Yeah, the engines were hand built, but the basic parts were available to the general public as RPOs. There are far too many BS cars being sold to unsuspecting buyers as "special order" or "you could get anything" cars that are totally fabricated. I'll be the first person to tell you I'm the farthest thing from a Chevy expert. On the other hand, I do know that Olds developed documentation for these sorts of cars. I remain skeptical of any such stories without corroborating evidence. The fact that someone clearly remembers something after half a century is not proof, considering most of us can't remember what we had for lunch. As an example, I did some construction work here on the farm that I swore I did in 2010. I just checked the date code on the digital photos and it was 2011. Memory is not a reliable witness.

timholliday

I believe the Fouranado had a 455 in '68, but I'm not sure if Hurst or Oldsmobile installed it. Also the '68 and '69 H/O convertibles had 455s put in from the factory.

BangScreech4-4-2

Exactly. Thanks, Joe.

joe_padavano

George Hurst built the Fouranado. The factory had nothing to do with it. If you read this thread from the beginning, the whole question was, were there any 1968-69 A-bodies with 455 OTHER THAN the H/Os.

allyolds68

The fact that no one has ever shown any factory Olds documentation for these one-off claims raises suspicions.

How many times have we heard about:

W30 Vista's
Factory produced el oldsmanino's
Factory two door vista's
etc.

Not that this applies to a 442 but a similar story is the factory putting a 400 BBO in a regular 68 Cutlass. Supposedly you could select the "police interceptor package". Of course that was technically not possible because they weren't supposed to be sold to the general public. I'm sure (unless they were supplied by Olds at no cost) that old 400G police cars found their way into used car lots just like any other police car does these days. The car supplied by Olds for the September 68 Motor Trend was probably turned back in and outfitted with a 350. Who knows if anyone ever ordered this package. I've never seen any documented proof of it and by the time the Motor Trend article came out the 68 model year was over. Chances would be a lot better to find a 69 with the package.

Facebook makes it even more difficult to prove or refute these claims because as soon as someone reads it there then "it must be true". Pretty soon the post is gone because as it gets rolled into oblivion (unlike forums like these).

There was a guy on FB last week insisting that his 68 delta had a 455 that was painted blue from the factory. Of course he doesn't have it anymore, can't check the VIN, and didn't even buy it new.

Jon442

My father was an Olds dealer from 1966 until they ceased operations. As the years went by, it became harder and harder to order a car that was outside of the spec book. But there was a time when it was possible. Of course, the more outside of spec it was, the higher up the food chain you had to be to get it done. In many cases, a dealer could not get it done, but a high-ranking member of Olds or GM management might be able to do so. Primarily this was done with options or colors, since swapping in an unapproved engine could violate emissions laws. I suppose that in the OP's case, installing a 455 into a late-build '69 could be possible if the person requesting the swap carried enough weight within the corporation. Especially if it was being done around the time the Hurst cars were coming down the line. It would be highly unusual, though, and I would be suspect without a paper trail.

In 1981 I wanted to order a bright red Cutlass Salon with a white interior. Olds did not offer bright red on the Cutlass at that time, but I submitted a request in writing on dealership letterhead to the zone office, and it was built. There was a $210 charge on the window sticker for special paint. So that car could have definitely been a one-of-one, but I'm sure the paint code was documented on the car somehow in addition to the extra charge on the sticker.

I've seen some strange things over the years, but I'm always a skeptic without corroborating documentation.

joe_padavano

Actually, Olds had RPO codes for non-standard paint - this is well documented. RPO Y62 was for Special Paint extra charge (typically for non-GM colors) and RPO Y63 was for Special Paint no charge (typically GM colors not normally available from Olds). There was also RPO Y66 for Two Tone Special Paint.

Chesrown 67 OAI

And then there was the story about a so-called "pre-production" Ramrod..........

Travlr

Well there ya go Jon442... and any reasonable person would have some skepticism, but any reasonable person would also weigh the claim made by the "kind" of evidence presented as memory. Certainly there are weak claims based on memory, and strong claims. I would call your story a strong claim as you bought the car new and made the order. But some people here may think you're a liar. I don't because I've had a similar experience with a vehicle equipped out of the norm. It's hard to provide documents on vehicles you owned decades ago and are long gone. If someone with a failing memory can't remember what they had for breakfast, that certainly doesn't mean another person can't remember something as important to them as your story is to you. Thanks for relating your experience.

joe_padavano

Not to mention the green 1964 Faux Four Two with an Oct 63 built date claimed to be a "pilot car" (naturally with zero documentation), or the notorious yellow 64 Faux Four Two convertible with the "special order" automatic (again with zero proof) that is once again on ebay.

Jacoz70442

This reminds me of working down at GM in Janesville, WI in the 90's. We saw and heard some weird stuff there: 6-door Suburbans, a monster motored 454 tubo Suburban called "Big Red", Dually Suburbans, etc. None ever saw the light of day anywhere, but were around. To Joe's point, there's a ton of "one-off" stuff that got built, but never left the plants or proving grounds for his stated warranty reasons. Built wrong: all the time. Built custom for you by GM off the books: not likely.

Travlr

Well, the discussion is really coming down to what people want to believe. I know the details of my own experience, and of course no one is obliged to believe if they want to be skeptical. It's hard to come up with proof when the vehicle was sold decades ago.

But just to throw this in the mix, I just watched an episode of Jay Leno's Garage with the guest vehicle being a '64 GTO. Since the car is claimed to be rare to begin with, and Leno suggested that the GTO was the first real muscle car, they got into a discussion of how the GTO model came into existence. Apparently GM executives didn't approve the idea of a big engine in the mid-size Tempest. So there was a first car produced with a 389 "off the books" by either John Delorean having it made or some other engineers doing the work and showing Delorean the result. After seeing the product Delorean somehow got the GTO package approved as an option. Also, there was a made-famous race between the '64 Pontiac GTO and a Ferrari GTO in which the Ferrari was expected to win... but the Pontiac was the surprise winner. What very few people knew was that the Pontiac did not have a 389 in it, instead being equipped with a 421 which produced over a hundred more horsepower than the 389 option.

So, according to the stories no one can prove, the original GTO was an under-the-table car with an engine not approved for production, and the car racing the Ferrari was also a black ops car.

joe_padavano

Actually, we can. It's well known that Delorean had Royal Pontiac build and install the 421. Car and Driver magazine even wrote about this at the time. No one disputes that the factories made one-off cars for press use. These cars were NOT available to the general public, period. We also know through factory documentation that when a "non-standard" substitution WAS made by the factory in production, it was well documented in dealer service bulletins for exactly the reasons I noted above. Attached to this post it the dealer service bulletin that describes how some late production 1967 Olds 330 motors were built with 1968 350 parts. This is an example of how the factory needed to document such changes.

BangScreech4-4-2

As the pundits like to say, you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Travlr

And I'm not disputing that there was documentation for odd combinations that were produced... sometimes in very limited quantities. That's a given, isn't it?

I know about my own experience with a vehicle many people claim was not produced... and yet the engine was replaced under a new vehicle warranty. Can I prove it after the decades ago truck has most likely long ago passed into a wrecking yard? Nope...

Should I deny my own experience to suit those insisting on proof? Why would I do that? I know what the facts and circumstances were at the time. Do I wish I could provide proof in the form of documentation? Sure. But the sands of time have buried the evidence farther than this discussion warrants.

Those of you that insist documents are necessary to provide proof are entirely correct. Except to anyone that had first hand experience. I merely relate my experience for you, claimed as fact because I know it to be so. Do I expect you to believe? Nope. No more than I would if you told me something you couldn't prove. But I'd certainly listen and file the information away to be used if more credible (documents) evidence surfaced. That's what grown ups do.

Megsy

Back around 1973, my boyfriend and I bought a 1969 Cutlass. It was a metallic bronze/copper color, automatic transmission. We were both car crazy and worked in an auto parts store managed by my guy's father, who was a terrific mechanic. Our world was completely made up of mechanics and gear heads with lots of years on us. Well, we picked up the car at night, drove it home, and the next day, in the light, the garage crew opened the hood and all looked at each other. We were afraid we'd screwed up somehow because it was the first car we bought on our own. No, the guys were gobsmacked because somehow that engine was a 455. And it was not a transplant. And my brother now has that car, though in storage for 30 years. I can't explain it, but I can tell you it was the most glorious car I ever had. I had previously owned a 66 Lemans, which I loved, but the Cutlass, which we just called the 442 after the mechanic "circle" declaration, was just scintillating to drive. And not many women were driving muscle cars back then!

BangScreech4-4-2

If your brother still has the car, do us a favor and have him check to see if the VIN derivative on the engine matches the VIN.

joe_padavano

Ever the optimist...

rcorrigan5

Just for giggles, my very first car was a 1969 4-4-2 holiday coupe that I bought in April 1972 and it had a 455 in it. The dealership was honest in that they told me it was a replacement engine. It had a THM 400 behind it with a 1970 console. I have no idea how the car was originally configured but it could break the tires loose in first and second gears and go like a banshee up to about 85 mph but after that there was nothing!

Randy C.

joe_padavano

Lots of 68-69 cars got 455 replacements when the G-block crapped out.

BangScreech4-4-2

Actually more of a skeptic. I'm not really expecting to hear back from this poster.