Holy @3#$!!! 69 Judge convertible
December 9th, 2012, 06:39 PM
#121
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Location: Chi-town
Posts: 4,511
I'm jumping back in
I could care less about what car has a bigger following or whether it deserves it or not (and I believe the Judge does deserve it that's why I said earlier it would need a 100K restoration and still be worth 200k+). I tend to like what I consider the over-the-top cars just as much as the sleepers or less liked cars of the general audience.
For instance I like the Judge, Superbird and the Hurst Olds, I also like the Charger, GS, AMX etc just as much as a Grand Prix or a Wildcat. My car preference obviously starts with Olds but I understand a car like a Hemi Cuda or a Judge will be desired more or valued more than a 442 - I get that.
What I disagree with is that the Judge is more of a different car from a GTO than a W30 is from a 442. To me they are the same thing you just had a better following, then and now, with the GTOs. That's ok. To me it doesn't matter which one had more ordered or how you ordered it. It is what came with both. I brought up the Rallye 350 as to me its basically the same "type" of option as the Judge. Is it the same kind of car? No way (no disrespect to owners of Rallyes) as it is a Cutlass with an appearance option - the Judge was still a GTO. To me as I read through this thread that's what seems to be repeated the most, the judge was an appearance package on top of what could be ordered on any GTO. And it doesn't make it any less of a car.
Steve-Hoog brought to the table what Ram Air added to a GTO but from what I gather the Judge option didn't automatically carry a Ram air option.
Now that I think of it, is the Judge to the GTO what the Superbird is to the Roadrunner and the Daytona is to the Charger. I think not, but would be interested to hear others opinions on that.
I could care less about what car has a bigger following or whether it deserves it or not (and I believe the Judge does deserve it that's why I said earlier it would need a 100K restoration and still be worth 200k+). I tend to like what I consider the over-the-top cars just as much as the sleepers or less liked cars of the general audience.
For instance I like the Judge, Superbird and the Hurst Olds, I also like the Charger, GS, AMX etc just as much as a Grand Prix or a Wildcat. My car preference obviously starts with Olds but I understand a car like a Hemi Cuda or a Judge will be desired more or valued more than a 442 - I get that.
What I disagree with is that the Judge is more of a different car from a GTO than a W30 is from a 442. To me they are the same thing you just had a better following, then and now, with the GTOs. That's ok. To me it doesn't matter which one had more ordered or how you ordered it. It is what came with both. I brought up the Rallye 350 as to me its basically the same "type" of option as the Judge. Is it the same kind of car? No way (no disrespect to owners of Rallyes) as it is a Cutlass with an appearance option - the Judge was still a GTO. To me as I read through this thread that's what seems to be repeated the most, the judge was an appearance package on top of what could be ordered on any GTO. And it doesn't make it any less of a car.
Steve-Hoog brought to the table what Ram Air added to a GTO but from what I gather the Judge option didn't automatically carry a Ram air option.
Now that I think of it, is the Judge to the GTO what the Superbird is to the Roadrunner and the Daytona is to the Charger. I think not, but would be interested to hear others opinions on that.
December 9th, 2012, 06:41 PM
#122
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,620
All Judges had Ram Air, by the way.
December 9th, 2012, 06:54 PM
#123
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Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Posts: 28
The Judge option in 69 mandated these:
1. Judge Stripes and Decals
2. Glove Box Call Out
3. Spoiler
4. Ralley Wheels no Trim Ring
5. Wide Oval Tires (could be changed I think)
6. Hurst T Handle with M20
7. Ram Air (but upgradable to IV)
8. Blacked Out Grills
And now that I think about, Blacked Out Grills along with the Stipes, Spoiler, and Glove Box Call Out are the four things that could not be ordered outside of the Judge Package.
1. Judge Stripes and Decals
2. Glove Box Call Out
3. Spoiler
4. Ralley Wheels no Trim Ring
5. Wide Oval Tires (could be changed I think)
6. Hurst T Handle with M20
7. Ram Air (but upgradable to IV)
8. Blacked Out Grills
And now that I think about, Blacked Out Grills along with the Stipes, Spoiler, and Glove Box Call Out are the four things that could not be ordered outside of the Judge Package.
December 9th, 2012, 07:02 PM
#125
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Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Posts: 28
December 9th, 2012, 08:45 PM
#126
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chi-town
Posts: 4,511
so is ram air the ram air hood or the ram air IV engine or both on a Judge? If its the the hood then I would argue its mostly an appearance package though technically maybe you can argue the hood added to the performance. Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered one of the holy grails of muscle cars but goes in line with what I would argue makes it less different from a GTO than a W30 is from a 442.
Though come to think how different is my automatic W30 from a standard 442 - 5hp - that's either bs from the factory or not enough difference to warrant the upgrade in the first place - That's it I've had it, I'm going out and buying a Prius
Though come to think how different is my automatic W30 from a standard 442 - 5hp - that's either bs from the factory or not enough difference to warrant the upgrade in the first place - That's it I've had it, I'm going out and buying a Prius
December 9th, 2012, 08:58 PM
#127
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,620
Speaking for 1969 (because earlier years could have different definitions):
The Ram Air motor that was standard on the Judge and optional on the GTO was known at Pontiac as the 400 HO Ram Air, but it became to be known as Ram Air III. It was an upgraded motor plus ram air, so the air induction was not just an accessory (like on the W-25, for example).
The Ram Air IV originally was named because it was to have four air intakes - two on the hood, two in the valence. The latter didn't happen, but it was the successor to 1968's Ram Air II. A case could be make the IV was the fourth ram air motor in the GTO, but even that's not true.
The Ram Air motor that was standard on the Judge and optional on the GTO was known at Pontiac as the 400 HO Ram Air, but it became to be known as Ram Air III. It was an upgraded motor plus ram air, so the air induction was not just an accessory (like on the W-25, for example).
The Ram Air IV originally was named because it was to have four air intakes - two on the hood, two in the valence. The latter didn't happen, but it was the successor to 1968's Ram Air II. A case could be make the IV was the fourth ram air motor in the GTO, but even that's not true.
December 10th, 2012, 09:56 AM
#132
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Posts: 28
Musclecar_Collector
Trust me, if he says it then it is as near a fact as you will ever get with Pontiacs.
Also he said there are exceptions both on Judge and regular GTO's; apparently the line had a habit of running out of Black Out, so to save hold up they would send them out with the regular grills.
Trust me, if he says it then it is as near a fact as you will ever get with Pontiacs.
Also he said there are exceptions both on Judge and regular GTO's; apparently the line had a habit of running out of Black Out, so to save hold up they would send them out with the regular grills.
December 12th, 2012, 07:43 PM
#134
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
$49,400, Reserve Not Met. 39 Bids.
Its not just the Pontiac guys - the whole auto hobby is on crack.
Wish I could get me some. [Where's the "Gettin' High" smiley face icon when I need it?]
- Eric
Its not just the Pontiac guys - the whole auto hobby is on crack.
Wish I could get me some. [Where's the "Gettin' High" smiley face icon when I need it?]
- Eric
December 12th, 2012, 07:49 PM
#135
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 731
December 13th, 2012, 10:21 AM
#139
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,026
Quote from PerformanceYears.com thread on this car....
Diego, not trying to start any chit or anything but I have always thought The Judge to be an aperance package more than anything. As a kid I thought it was nothing more than a wild color, most the time, stripes and a rear spoiler. You could get everything else on a GTO.
My thoughts are the same now as they were when I was 17 on this, I would rather have a RAIV GTO than a RAIV Judge. Well of course unless I was in it purely for monitary value.
And the debate of weather the Judge that stated this thread is worth 50k I say hell yes it is and the sale proves it! Very simple supply and demand.
Just an opinion from someone who has loved GTO's...... and Judges for most of his life.
I would not compare the Judge package to the GSX package. This big reason is that I do agree with others here that the Judge was more of an appearance package. Yes, you got the RAIII motor, but, that was it regarding anything performance related. The GSX was a complete performance package that came with gauges, hood tach, posi, heavy duty suspension, 15x7 rallys with G60x15s and a choice of 4-speed or TH400 as well as the special appearance package. The Judge was not a complete performance package. These cars came standard with no posi, no gauges, 3-speed manual, no suspension upgrade, etc. They were sort of trapped between their original intent of being a stripper low cost performer to compete with the Roadrunners, and being a specialty car. The GSX was complete as were cars like the Hurst/Olds, TAs, W30s, Challeger TAs, AAR Cudas, Boss Mustangs, Cougar Eliminators, and I am sure others. That is the difference. Without the performance options being standard, it was mostly stripes and a spoiler. The hood tach wasn't even standard. Now, don't get me wrong, I still love the Judges and would love to own one. I am just trying to be realistic about what they were.
Diego, not trying to start any chit or anything but I have always thought The Judge to be an aperance package more than anything. As a kid I thought it was nothing more than a wild color, most the time, stripes and a rear spoiler. You could get everything else on a GTO.
My thoughts are the same now as they were when I was 17 on this, I would rather have a RAIV GTO than a RAIV Judge. Well of course unless I was in it purely for monitary value.
And the debate of weather the Judge that stated this thread is worth 50k I say hell yes it is and the sale proves it! Very simple supply and demand.
Just an opinion from someone who has loved GTO's...... and Judges for most of his life.
I would not compare the Judge package to the GSX package. This big reason is that I do agree with others here that the Judge was more of an appearance package. Yes, you got the RAIII motor, but, that was it regarding anything performance related. The GSX was a complete performance package that came with gauges, hood tach, posi, heavy duty suspension, 15x7 rallys with G60x15s and a choice of 4-speed or TH400 as well as the special appearance package. The Judge was not a complete performance package. These cars came standard with no posi, no gauges, 3-speed manual, no suspension upgrade, etc. They were sort of trapped between their original intent of being a stripper low cost performer to compete with the Roadrunners, and being a specialty car. The GSX was complete as were cars like the Hurst/Olds, TAs, W30s, Challeger TAs, AAR Cudas, Boss Mustangs, Cougar Eliminators, and I am sure others. That is the difference. Without the performance options being standard, it was mostly stripes and a spoiler. The hood tach wasn't even standard. Now, don't get me wrong, I still love the Judges and would love to own one. I am just trying to be realistic about what they were.
Last edited by TK-65; December 13th, 2012 at 01:50 PM.
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