Diego

Um, you simply don't get it.

That's okay - not everyone is willing to understand.

MDchanic

I would submit that in a rational world, a price differential of, potentially, several hundred thousand dollars should not hinge on "getting it."

I will also note that I am the proud owner of a 1970 Chevelle SS, original LS6 car, which I bought in 1980 and used as my daily driver for ten years (no, it ain't restored, and yes, it is a crapheap, but it's registered and entirely drivable, and not even remotely as bad as the GTO in question), and I don't subscribe to this BS either - I've driven and stripped a number of other '70 Chevelle / Monte cars, as well as a few other A-bodies, and I can assure you they all look the same under the paint, rust, bondo, and dirt - I doubt that if you stripped the paint off of that Judge you'd hit gold.

- Eric

Diego

Money has nothing to do with the identity of a vehicle.

MDchanic

I think we've defined the point where some of our opinons diverge.

I am glad that these cars make some people so happy.

I admit it: I will never understand.

There are many things I will never understand, though, including women and the little guy inside the icebox who turns the light on and off.

- Eric

Diego

I see it as a brand bias rather than a simple divergence of opinions.

If one can't see the difference between a GTO and Judge the same way I see the difference between a 4-4-2 and a Hurst/Olds, then it's much more complicated than subjectivity.

TK-65

Ive read this whole thing and I think youre wrong. H/O came with an engine that could not be had in any other A body Olds. The Judge did not, same engines that could be had in a regular GTO. Yes both were the ultimate in muscle for each make in 69, but thats where it ends. Id say the H/O was more so than the Judge, because the Judge only offered tape stripes and badges. H/O had stripes, scoops, spoiler, and engine that broke GMs 400 cubes limit.

Diego

TK, it doesn't have anything to do with the engine - it's all about image. The 1969 H/O was an outrageous car with an extroverted paint and stripe scheme plus a spoiler. The Judge was no different.

oldspackrat

On a slightly different note, I have a friend who, not too long ago sold a GTO very similar to mine. It was a '69 GTO convertible RA IV 4 spd with many options. He had the thing torn very far apart & it was one of the rustiest cars I've ever seen, but he had the PHS documentation to prove what it was. Even without an engine or trans & in a thousand pieces he sold it for $8,000.00. It was not a judge, but restored, I would think it would bring at least $75,000.00. But it would probably take $60,000.00 to restore it.

slantflat

The H/O wasn't a totally internally built Oldsmobile. The A-body Olds was sent to Hurst and was, transformed, for the lack of a better word, into something different than a 442, and with parts you couldn't get on a 442. Are you saying the Judges were sent out as basic A-body Pontiacs and transformed by a different company?

Diego

It's irrelevant where it was built - Daytonas and Boss 429s also had cars farmed out to contractors.

Besides, the engine was installed in Lansing.

Intragration

Spoken like a true professional.

stevengerard

Diego, I get where you are going but..... then I think if it is not about the engine, then does the 70 Rallye 350 equate to more value than a 70 W30 because it had a wild paint job and a spoiler? I also am ok with anyone saying a convertible Judge RAIV is worth more than a W30. Some makes and models are just worth more than others, sometimes logically, sometimes for no rhyme or reason. And put me down as another one saying its dumb how much these cars are worth.

DennisG.

Sadly it all boils down to an investment instead of being enjoyed like it was meant to.

TK-65

It all depends on how you define enjoyment. Someone may get a lot of enjoyment out of restoring it and having it in their collection. Someone that can afford to restore it will probably have other cars he can drive to get that type of "enjoyment". Its the difference between car guys and car guys with money.

ent72olds

Diego, I respect your opinion and your work. But, I have to agree with TK and others that the H/O , with the engine option and also, outrageous paint scheme in both '68 and '69 , was more of a difference from a 442, than the Judge to the GTO. But, as stated in the beginning, the comparison was with the W-30. So, in summary, and since somehow, the H/O was dragged in, the H/O was on a different level than the Judge....the engine options prove this. The w-30 and Judge are more likely comparison. Correct me if I am wrong, but, where the Judge gets the w-30 is rarity. Now, image, I believe, is in the eyes of the beholder....isn't it?

stevengerard

In 1969 yes, but not by much, there were only 121 1969 W30 convertibles. I still contend that the W30 which came standard with the OAI hood and the bold stripes. side view mirrors and a UNIQUE engine in to itself was more of a package than a standard Judge.

BUT.... the GTO has always, and I believe deserving, have had a reputation for performance and an insane following. Add to that the Judge package and I see where the value skyrockets. Again this hobby is finicky, there were more LS6's made than LS5's but we all know what's worth more.

Rarity, looks, HP, and drivable don't always add up to desirable... and sometimes it does.

Diego

There was little to distinguish a W-30-optioned 4-4-2 from a regular one. If you didn't know to peek under the bumper, you would have thought it was "just a 4-4-2...."

Sorry!

Olds_71_442

So.......a set of multi colored stickers makes it a different car?

oldcutlass

OK, remember this number, 1 of 108, broken down even less based on option package. It's a matter of supply and demand. The muscle car market is strange on what some circles deem extremely collectable and rare.

Intragration

Exactly. At Oldsmobile, they didn't do anything for the W-30, except for air intakes, a special axle, a unique select-built motor, body bracing, limited insulation and a special body stripe with a tasteful metal badge. The Judge had everything necessary for a new and unique identity: a sticker, a spoiler, a special shift ****, and powertrain options that were available on every other GTO. /sarcasm

I like Oldsmobile, and I like Pontiac, but we are witnessing the attempted rewriting of history as the result of too much Kool Aid. Judges are rare and valuable and bring a lot of money at auction. They are not special or unique in any other way that W-30s are not. There has been zero evidence to the contrary, despite repeated requests. I have looked for this evidence elsewhere myself, out of curiosity. It's not there. My opinion, and the opinion of many here apparently is that the W-30 and the Judge, in terms of what they actually ARE, are performance packages on top of the 442 and GTO respectively. That's not a slam, that's not "brand bias", that's just a fact. What we're being told is that somehow the Judge is special and uniquely different in a way that the W-30 isn't. Pontiac obsession aside, this isn't reality and it's not supported by the evidence.

tru-blue 442

^^^Very well put!

kjr442

x 2

Olds_71_442

I wrote that because I completely agree with you. I know it looks like I'm biased because I own an Oldsmobile, but I love Pontiacs, too. I'm just not as crazy as some of the usual Pontiac lovers.

But then again, maybe it's because we all don't get it?

11971four4two

Intragration

I know, the part where I was replying to your post was in sarcasm. No jab intended. I like Pontiac too, but there were some inaccurate statements that had been made previously about Pontiac AND Oldsmobile, and that doesn't do anyone any good. I figure someone would set the record straight on a Pontiac board too.

Diego

The Rallye 350 had everything necessary for a new and unique identity: a sticker, a spoiler, a special shift ****, and powertrain that was available on every other Cutlass. /sarcasm

tru-blue 442

^^^ I don't think they can. Maybe this is why.
They didn't have a "Doc Watson."
The W-30's were enginered with the intakes,
heads, dist's, cam's, trannys, rears...
Food for thought.
It is a shame that the 68-69 400 was such a dog though.

Steve-Hoog

Hello Olds guys

I came to your forum because of this thread; and wanted to share something with you about the seller of the Judge.

But first I would like to say that I have always been a huge fan of the 442 and variants that you have discussed in this thread. I like them all and don't set one above the other at all; W-30, Judge, and even the GSX.

Back to the seller; he is a great guy and personal friend, I promise you he means no harm to Pontiac fans or Olds fans by putting this car for sale. He is simply getting some of his cars on the market for others to enjoy; and who wouldn't want the best price they can get after all.

The funny part and why I am here is to show you what else he has that will certainly interest all of you in great depth; hopefully he will give these a good home soon as well.

Enjoy!

MDchanic

** GULP **



- Eric

aliensatemybuick

That settles it, its all about the stripes. The Camaro pace car proves it.

Diego

I hope they don't butcher some Cutlasses in order to make those H/Os whole again.

stevengerard

I'm on my way in a helicopter and a giant claw, maybe I can grab one of those from the air.

tru-blue 442

Shouldn't be to hard. There's only THREE!
ARGGGG!

Intragration

Ha ha that's why they called it the "Rallye 350 Appearance Package". You seem to be fascinated with new and unique identities. Do you have any secrets you'd like to share?

I too hope no other Oldsmobiles are harmed in the restoration of those Hurst/Olds. (I wonder if Lemans quarter panels could be made to work...kidding, kidding ) And despite the fact that there are probably already more Hurst/Olds in circulation than were made originally, I also hope they go to homes where they will be loved and driven, not shuffled onto auction blocks like antique dressers.

sammy

Grab two!

That makes my heart sink...they could be in somebody's garage......hopefully he does sell them

tru-blue 442

X2!

Diego

Funny, as Oldsmobile disagrees with you.

Intragration

Oldsmobile disagrees with me about what? If you're talking about the definition of a Rallye 350 as an "appearance package", I'm looking at the Oldsmobile salesman's price guide, dated January 1, 1970. Page 4 "W45 Rallye 350 Appearance Package". Page 6 "W45 Rally 350 Appearance Package". Sounds like it was an appearance package to me. Maybe you're getting your information from the same place you got the Judge information from?

In your defense, or maybe my defense, it does say "Oldsmobile reserves the right to make changes at any time, without notice, in prices, colors, materials, trim, equipment, specifications and models, and also to discontinue models."

Whatcha got?

Diego

You're all wet. Do you consider the Trans Am to be a different car than the regular Firebird?

Intragration

You tell me I'm all wet and then instead of giving a reason, you ask another question? Ok, I'll raise you one. I think you've made a number of inaccurate assertions, and you've never acknowledged this when you were shown evidence to the contrary. Why not, and what's your definition of "different"?