66ninetyeightls

Interesting read!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoo...kruptcy-again/

1969w3155

Depends on how you read it, or if you believe that the author knows his stuff, or has any bias. I believe that he is making comparisions by pulling bits here and there from the car mags without really knowing what is going on.

66ninetyeightls

So what specifically did he say that was incorrect? He clearly states where all the information comes from.

The only reference he makes to a magazine is Car and Driver magazine's 10 Best list. Which is only used as an example of GM's return to their old ways of car design and lack of thought in that design. Pretty much every automotive magazine on the market would agree with the review of the new Malibu not to mention the pathetic sales for the model.

They obviously didn't learn from their mistakes the first time around. The GM design philosophy has always been the "Let pennies get in the way of dollars" approach.

Allan R

Craig, it is an interesting read but I don't think that saying GM is headed for bankruptcy again is entirely fair. The article spins toward a trendy market, consumers and gov't intervention. Too much for one small column. To date GM hasn't shown the huge inroads they wanted after the bail out, but they aren't out of the marketplace either. ALL the competition is grasping to make the innovations for consumer confidence and purchase more lucrative.

Also, FWIW that 10 Best list in Car and Driver is for the TOP 10 Under 80K. No surprise that Audi, Mercedes, Cadillac and BMW took top honors? You can't put cars like the Ford Fusion, GM Malibu, Hyundai Sonata in the same class and hope to find any shade of equality. That's not comparing apples to apples. They should have 2 classes: Cars under 50,000 and cars over 50000. Then you'd see something that the average consumer can grasp at instead of the exotics only market.

But in the 'affordable' market I think GM is holding its own if you look at the number of chevies and trucks on the road. Of course it would likely be ahead of the game if there were more than Chev, Buick, Caddy and GMC being the only nameplates. The unfortunate thing about GM is they haven't really expanded their market offering as much as everyone else has. When they get on the ball with that? We'll see. Anyway that's my opinion...

Wills72455

http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/...-op-ed-pieces/
Sheds some interesting perspective on it.

garys 68

Allen, selling a large number of cars does not equal profitability. Before GMs bankrupcy they were losing money on every car sold (their big SUVs were money makers though). The problem was their production costs as well as market share.
Since the bailout was largely a payoff to the unions, I'm not sure that they've restructured to completely address those problems.
As for market share, I think there may be a significant portion out there that will never buy a GM car until the bailout money is paid back.

redoldsman

I love my old GM products but don't think I will ever buy a GM product again. I won't go into details but they pissed me off when I had a 94 Suburban. I bought a new 99 Expedition that I still have with 160,000 miles on it. It still runs great. My wife has a Lincoln and I just bought a 2010 Flex. Ford did not take a bailout and I think they build great vehicles. Just my $0.02.

Lady72nRob71

Here we go again...........

DeltaPace77

Hard to say, as just about every automaker makes really good cars now. Volkswagon makes no secret about getting more agressive in capaturing more market share, and Hyndai, once producing junk, is now putting out top notch product. Also, GM cut into their own Malibu market, with the slightly smaller Cruze. These are really nice roomy cars, as know a few people having the Eco models, and really do get the advertised 40-42 mpg highway. As for the mention of never buying GM again, I have a late model Corvette, and who else makes a car like this.

allyolds68

He makes his entire case around the Malibu. I'm guessing GM still makes their largest profit margins off their trucks & SUV's.

I'd personally like to see GM go in the toilet but that won't help me get warranty work on my 2011 Enclave

redoldsman

Sorry Rob. I did not intend to stir the pot. And DeltaPace77, you are correct on the Corvette. I just got rid of a 94 and am probably at an age I will not have another one. There is nothing else like them.

tru-blue 442

Ahh, come on Rob, don't you need a
new kia or hundie skateboard?

stellar

If GM continues to make money by being the banker and offering loans to anyone no matter what their financial status is (this is how they sell cars) and the economy continues to tank it will be like the housing bubble when people can't afford the new car any more. Since they now are going after China for a bigger market it may work out. They have opened factories dealerships and R&D divisions there. If they go bankrupt again it will be the
chineese who should bail them out since we did last time and they moved a ton of jobs to china.

Troys Toy 70

The writer also needs to note that Honda and Toyota plants suffered because of the Sunami, production numbers way down. 2011 market share for those companies were down, which allowed GM, Ford, and Chrysler to gain marketshare last year. This year things went back to where they were before the Sunami,maybe slightly lower for the big 3. Bottom line the Big 3 are never going to have the huge market share they use to enjoy, as noted too much good competition.

w-30dreamin

Member Stellar is correct.

GM no longer cares about it's measley 15 or so % market share in US auto sales,they are in the process of moving operations to China where they can grab a much larger market share of auto sales.

A very interesting youtube video.

Allan R

Very interesting but disheartening video. Guess my plans for a new car won't include a chinese chevy or buick.

ah64pilot

I hate this debate...it brings to light all of the shady deals the governments of the world make behind the backs of the people that support them.

No matter, I would never buy a new GM product anyway...I don't feel like they build a quality product. And now that I know they are focusing their attention on a foreign market like China...it wouldn't matter if they did.

Diego

This is an Op/Ed column. Experience has taught me that people in the mainstream media know nothing about cars. I find the writer's characterization of the Malibu is inaccurate on a number of levels. To wit:

- 2008 comparo test fails to mention what engines the cars had - 4 or 6? Chances are the comparo would have had evenly matched cars, and chances are that the winner with one motor may not be the winner with the other motor.

- Using the 2013 Malibu Eco as an example of GM's crappy cars is a poor scenario to highlight, not to mention the writer fails to explain why C&D felt the car was in last place. The Eco is a specialized model that is maxed to achieve high MPG for a non-hybrid - hardly the bread-and-butter sedan that most people will be buying. How would have the "regular" Malibu fared? We don't know. And how many points behind was the ECO from the winner? Again, this is not explained, even though the author explained the point difference in another comparo.

- The writer seems to depend on C&D's opinion to support his. I trust C&D, but I've read enough magazines to know that each one will have a different opinion on which car is best.

- The writer continues to make a comparison with VW in 1965 that ends up being superfluous and irrelevant.

- Lastly, the bailout was initiated by Bush, which is not explained by the author.

Unfortunately, Detroit has become a political football, and plenty of people use it as rhetoric to support their own unfounded views on economics. Certainly the bailout was unfair to some, more fair to others, but reading comments about the auto industry in a forum is like me asking my mom if she prefers Ronnie Wood in the Jeff Beck Group, the Faces, or the Stones - she doesn't have a friggin' clue.

ah64pilot

Diego watch the other video about GM in China and decode that one for us...would you?

Diego

I saw it a few months ago - my Friday night is not going to be spent watching that stuff. GM is a global company, for better or worse. This is the world we live in.

TK-65

therobski

DIEGO it sure is. Have you read or noticed that mortgage company's (forced by the current administration I guess) are offering 0 percent down AGAIN and will work with people that have no business owning a home. In the Dallas area DR Horton and other builders are going crazy once again building. It's a total cluster " F$$$," There is another Sh$$ storm coming soon to a theater near you. We can't people, even dumb asses like me can see this happening????? Sorry to bring politics into our Club.

Diego

….and the CEOs in Wall Street are now receiving a gazillion dollars in bonuses once again, even though their predecessors were complicit in contributing to the economic meltdowns.

Yeah, it all sucks, but I don't get my economic information from car web sites, just like I don't get my automotive news from Forbes.

brown7373

I saw an article the other day that said 70% of GM vehicles ere now made in China. Maybe those numbers are skewed because they are selling large numbers in China. And from a profit standpoint, government pressure/influence to build cars like the Volt, that are selling in very small numbers, and discouraging selling the vehicles that sell better and make profit, was hurting GM long term. And although we the tax payers are holding GM stock, as security (or repayment) for the bailout stock price would have to DOUBLE to bring it up to the cost of repaying the bailout.

TK-65

Where exactly did you read this article? I cant name a GM car sold in North America that is made in China. GM builds in China for China. They dont export to NA.

Volt was in the pipeline long before the bankruptcy and loan.

GM sells every truck they can make. Nobody is telling them to make more cars that dont sell and not to make trucks and SUVs.

1969w3155

TK-65 and Diego, both with knowledgable input. GM, like Ford, Chrysler, VW, Toyota, etc, builds cars in China because it is an emerging market, and China told every automaker who was interested in selling cars there, had to build them there.

z11375ss

$73,000 dollars per job saved? Now they want more.? Zero is pulling another fast one on us to reward his union money men.

http://pilogic.net/2012/01/28/update-general-...

Bunser

Union money men? Please explain.
(BTW...it was GDUBYA.)

Eightupman

GM doesn't import back to the US based mostly on DOT regulations. Having lived overseas (Europe) where GM builds Vauxhall, and Opel those vehicles do not meet some of the safety standards as required by the US, and they can build the cars in country slightly cheaper because of it. I can tell you for certain that certain older BMW's (not to get too far off topic) will never be allowed into the states because the glass is not DOT approved, nor is the I beam in the door for the same model year of its US import counterpart. Not to mention the amber turn signal requirement for all vehicles driven (yes DRIVEN, because GI's have to get thier cars modified to pass inspection) in Europe. Most all tires put on cars manufactured overseas do not meet DOT specs, so why would a manufacturer (GM) pay the extra $$ to have those tires installed if the car wasn't made for US roads (and DOT rules) Of course we wont get into the wrong side drive aspect of it, because Chrysler does manufacture DOT spec right hand drive vehicles for mail route purposes... I just cant tell you where.

I just bought my 3rd GM truck. Its a 2012 GMC Sierra 1500 and I have to say its the "sexiest" GM vehicle i've owned to date. Its smooth lines and chrome in the right places. It far outshines the Ford "boxes" that look like they rolled off the assembly line looking like they were headed to the set of the latest Mad Max movie (damn did I just date myself???) I can only base the durability of this vehicle based on the last one with a very similar drivetrain. The difference being a 3:42 ratio and a manually selectable transmission, and the 5.3 with the fuel saver feature. It runs, drive and pulls like there is nothing behind it. GM is doing right by thier trucks for sure. They have thier niche set. Is Ford and Ram doing the same? I don't know. I know of more Ford and Ram drivers that hopped over to Toyota instead of staying brand loyal, but know more GM guys that stick with GM.

Sadly, GM did the right thing (econmically) by cutting lines and vehicles. It made good sense to make 1 million Impala's (for example), instead of 250K of a Buick, Pontiac, Chevy AND Oldsmobile platforms. That eliminated the stock of different parts, and the different finishing assembly lines. So sure.. it sucked when the closed those lines, but all in all it was a smart move to streamline the process.

GM will go down to one truck line, one luxury car, one sport car, and a couple "family" cars before you see it die.

John

1970cs

I happen to live in a GM town (Our Mecca) I happen to support the local people by buying GM products! I will give a rebuttal to the original post.
Circa 2008 bought a 2009 Pontiac Vibe (Toyota Matrix) Nice looking car, but here was the list of issues: overhead console rattled at certain temps replaced 3 times, problem never solved, dealer told to live with it center caps for wheels keep spitting off replaced at least 2, blew a AC line and the charge along with it, auto transmission at certain times coasting down from 55+ severe 2nd to 1st with no joking here a boom and shook the whole car. Dealer could not find or fix, found a post from a GM tech at a dealer with complete list on how to fix the issue! Had dealership pull the post and it fixed the issue. Then we have the recall (Toyota) remove the factory floor mat and trim the gas pedal

Ride quality was very poor and you could hear the rain drops on the roof very tin like, not enough insulation to deaden the sound. 22 months later traded on a 2010 Malibu.

List of problems with the Malibu: transmission reprogramed for a hunting problem at highway speeds above 85 degrees ambient temp. Solved.
ride quality is excellent and very quiet on the road and returns MPG within 1 MPG of the Vibe! After 26 months and 32K

jaunty75

Isn't this pretty much where it is now with GMC, Cadillac, Corvette/Camaro, Buick, and Chevrolet, respectively, with Buick and Chevrolet more or less occupying the high and low ends of the family car segment?

z11375ss

In response to Bunser, the uaw got most of the company and the bondholders who by black letter law should have been first paid in the bankruptcy got very little. They were screwed to the tune of billions. The uaw got the lion's share. Read this. It's better than I can do. That's what I mean when I say money men. He rewarded the unions.

http://www.darwinsmoney.com/gm-bonuses-bondholders/

Eightupman

Not really. You still have several variations of trucks from both the Chevy and GMC line from the WT up to the Denali. Sport cars sure the Corvette and Camaro, but the turbocharged Cruize is attempting to make a dent in the compact sports car realm (and failing), And each of Chevy's makes has 4 or more different trim options so there are still a ton of options from GM so to speak. Caddy has the luxury AND sport side covered. If Caddy ever got thier hands on a Corvette... well... I'm thinking something like Bugatti quality...

So no, if you look at the company as a whole, there is still a lot of paring they can do and still be profitable.

John

lazy394

If I have learnt anything its Bean Counters will always kill passion, passion and individuality foster brand allegence. Most people on this site share a passion for cars that have "Something" that appeals.The vast majority of cars made now are little more than transport to the masses and most are deviod of any style or excitement ( this covers most of Toyotas catalogue).The ignorant masses dictate a 5 star crash rating ,big stereo( with Ipod connectivity)aircond , ergonomically correct for our aging population and 20 cup holders. The govt mandate mpg, pedestrian safety and emmisions, while the manufacturers want whats easiest to build (front wheel drive and nothing shiny ). All these things have priority in design and surprise surprise everything kinda looks the same.
The cars that are most coveted come from an era where stylist like the great Harley Earl and Virgil Exners were king and the yearly model change infused excitement and anticipation.
Next time your at the traffic lights surrounded by a sea of white, silver and black cars see what stands out....anything in a "color"
And then wonder why the motor industry is in strife, who gets excited about buying the bride the latest appliance?

ah64pilot

Where have you been? XLR? Cadillac has their hands on a Corvette...they put a 4.6L in it with 320 hp...it's a turd.

http://www.thesupercars.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Used-Cadillac-XLR.jpg

Eightupman

I musta missed the memo when a Corvette came with a 4.6. My unclear thought process to the post above was "Corvette drivetrain". So if the Vette was built with a 4.6, I will admit I've clearly lived under a rock... (and will stay there if that be the case of the 4.6)

John

Diego

The XLR was built in Bowling Green and used the Corvette's platform.

1969w3155

It, as Diego stated, was based on the Corvette platform, but used the Cadillac 4.6L V8 in both the normally aspirated and supercharged version (443 hp) that was used in the XLR V.

Eightupman

Ok so what Im saying is, take the XLR, put in a Z series Corvette drivetrain.... then they woukd be on to something

ah64pilot

Right, but what you said was if Cadillac ever got their hands on a Corvette...and they in fact DID get their hands on one and they made it a turd.

Or we could say if Cadillac ever got their hands on a Corvette drivetrain...and they did, it's called the CTS-V and it is a mildly performing luxury sports sedan...but is nowhere even close to a Bugatti.

So if we put a Z series Corvette drivetrain in an XLR we would get an ugly as sin, sort of fast, piece of junk. Have you ever owned a Cadillac? I've not met one person that owned one that didn't have serious problems with it. I'm not trying to pick on you, but what you said above is never going to happen. Cadillac and quality have never been synonymous with one another. I have a POS Deville sitting in my driveway...these cars are poorly constructed and way over priced. Cadillac is good at one thing, falling apart within 5-8 years.