f-85

Hey guys


Ok i have a friend interested in the 67 W30 http://www.cars-on-line.com/31320.html

I love Olds, but know nothing about cars of this caliber. What can you guys tell me about it before i talk to the guy. I found another add with him asking $60,000 for it. Anybody know this car? Looks nice, but like i said im not sure what i should be looking for.


Josh

rocketraider

For one thing, an airconditioned 4-speed W30 with power brakes is, shall we say, unusual- note the engine picture in which the A/C lines appear to be disconnected for OAI duct clearance. For another thing, 1967 Oldsmobile sport steering wheels were moulded plastic to match the interior color. That's a Chevrolet rosewood wheel.

Even though W30 could have been dealer installed, all these options are highly out of character for a 1967 442, much less a W30. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'm calling bullshit unless the guy can produce complete documentation back to the dealer order form. BTW, Oldsmobile did not have a COPO program by that name. That, again, is a Chevrolet thing.

The VIN and the data plate would be the tale of the tape. My money says this is not a Lansing car. All factory-built W30 are Lansing built with M plant code in the VIN.

Sorry to be so cynical, but there are known fraudulent examples of these cars because of the money they command, and I think some liberties have been taken here.

There's a Yenko Nova here in town. Saw it last night with a for sale sign in the window. He can't produce any documentation to justify his $90k asking money for the car, and knowing where it came from I've always felt it was a fake.

Unless you know exactly who and what you're dealing with, caveat emptor.

f-85

Thanks you for the help. Thats why i posted it here first. I know you guys would come through for me.

The Power brake thing had me thinking too. But like i said im not famillar with 442s, and W30s.

Ill wait and see if anybody else might know this car. Before i call him.

jensenracing77

without documentation i would also have to say bull.

Oldsmaniac

Documentation is manditory with that price tag....."date built" means next to nothing so seller is stretching things for sure......there is a 67 w30 on philadelphia craigslist at 36,000.....unusual with a column shifted auto but I believe this one to be legit....

Allan R

X2 RocketRaider.

f-85,
If your friend is really serious about this car, ask the seller for pics that show the Protecto Plate, Cowl tag information, and Build Sheet. Also ask for pics of the restoration as it progresses. If it's as documented as he says, this should not be an issue. Any REPUTABLE seller will know that you're just trying to confirm what he's claiming b4 you spend any hard earned coin.

The claim of being a frame off and full bolt and nut resto might be true. The COPO statement caught my eye too; it was only used by Chev to my knowledge and stood for Central Office Production Order. Never used by Oldsmobile, and if memory serves, COPO Chebbies didn't start rolling out till 1969.

Little things like changing steering wheels are done a lot by some restorers as a matter of taste. However, if this is being claimed to be a complete resto, the steering wheel is wrong, and would get dinged points at a judging.

I would love to know what the extensive list of options this car has and compare it to it's build sheet/cowl tag/protecto plate.

I'd almost swear this is the same car that gets advertised similarly on ebay with about a 90,000.00 price tag. If it could be proven authentic.........??? As Barrett-Jackson knows all too well, the money only goes so far. You have to find someone with the NEED to buy this specific car, and doesn't care about money.

AC and Power Brakes were an option in 1967 BTW.

f-85

Thanks guys. Its a great looking car, but for $60,000 it better be everything he says. I just emailed him asking for pics of the protecto plate, cowl tag, build sheet, and pics of the restoration. X your fingers. LOL Thanks again guys.

joe_padavano

That sound you hear is the BS detector going off.

First, there were 502 factory-built W-30s in 1967. NONE of these cars were built with power brakes or air conditioning. Other things to look for are the trunk-mounted battery and the O.A.I. holes in the core support being punched, not cut or drilled. The rear axle should be a P-type axle with four pinion gears instead of the normal two. The "numbers matching" comment is interesting, since Olds did not start stamping the VIN derivative on the block and trans until the 1968 model year. Now, the Protecto Plate WILL have the engine and trans numbers, so it is mandatory to get a copy of that.

There WAS a dealer-installed Track Pack available in 1967. This could have been dealer installed on any 442 - of course it would not have been an original W-30. I will say that the red inner fenders were not included in the Track Pack and are not being reproduced, so if the red inners on this car are real and not just painted red, the definitely came from an original car.

I am always skeptical of completely rebuilt cars like this one. While not impossible, most W-30s were not fully loaded with luxury options like power windows (although, my original 1968 W-30 DOES have all those options) since they were intended for NHRA stock class racing. Since this car has A/C and PDB, it is NOT a factory W-30, unless the seller can produce iron clad factory documentation to the contrary.

By the way, be especially wary of sellers who attempt to document their high dollar 442s by printing out the FAQs from 442.com.

wmachine

X10
Red flags all over on this one. Check the build date on the data tag. All factory '67 W-30s were built after the first of the year in '67, so if it was built before then, you can eliminate all doubt.

f-85

OK Guys

Well he got back to me. This is what his email said.

Hello Josh,
Thanks for replying to my post for my 1967 Olds W-30 and the compliment. I spent over 3 years restoring the car. As the ad mentioned it is a body off, frame up, over the top every nut and bolt restoration. As per your request I have enclosed some photos of the protect-o-plate. The vin number is 338177M318260. There isn't a build sheet because GM/ lansing plant did not use build sheets in 1967. That practice did not start until 1968. The car is from Texas and I am the 3rd owner. It was purchased new from Mossy Olds in Houston. It has remained in Texas all of it's life. It is 100 rust free and has all of its original body panels. The steering wheel in the photo is incorrect but I do have the original. A friend of mine placed it on ebay a while back so you can see additional photos on that web site. Just type in item number 270352505975. Give me a call @ 972-906-7334 if you have additional questions.
Ray






And this is the old Ebay add http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...5975&viewitem=



Sounds like BS to me. "GM didnt do build sheets until 68" LOL Can someone help decode the vin. I think this is just a 442, not a real W-30.

wmachine

The E-bay ad states that it is *not* one the fatory cars.
"In 1967, the high performance package was more readily available through the dealerships, 502 were produced. Although not one of the 502 built, this '67 Cutlass Supreme 442 boasts the performance and cosmetics of the W-30 equipped cars."
Always read *everything* carefully.
Suspicions well founded!

wmachine

So if "GM didn't do build sheets until '68", what does he call this from my '65 Jetstar 1?

You can't id a 442 from the VIN in '67 let alone a W-30. If you would, please e-mail me the pic of the POP and the data plate if you have it. wmachine@shubes.net

f-85

Thanks guys. Thats what i was thinking. I didnt read the whole ebay add. But the tite was only a 1967 442 not W-30. What an *** H*le. Im just glad you guys could help.

f-85

Ok here are the only 2 pics he sent me.

rocketraider

The COPO program existed at least as early as 1965 but it was aimed more at fleet and police car heavy duty stuff- one thing I can think of offhand that COPO could get you on a 65 Chevrolet was a DUAL MASTER CYLINDER (Fed didn't require it till 1967). The tradeoff was you could not get dual MC with metallic brake linings . Seems like that would have been the ticket for high performance brakes back then. You had to have a dealer who really understood the ordering process too.

You learn things like this when you have to assemble documentation for AACA judging, because AACA throws burden of proof on the owner and their guidelines state no dual MC until 1967 when the Fed required it. I've had to arbitrate several judging disputes on this, redline tires and shoulder harnesses over the years. Period factory literature and documentation is invaluable!



AC and PB were optional and popular, but the W30's radical duration cam precluded using either with it. Besides, just that much more weight to tote down the strip.

Oldsmaniac

[QUOTE=j I will say that the red inner fenders were not included in the Track Pack and are not being reproduced,[/QUOTE]

Recently there have been repro red and black plastic inners for the 66 and 67 cars advertised on Ebay.

330338564347 auction number

joe_padavano

So the fact that it does have the red inner fenders (at least in the photos they appear to be real and not just painted) tells me that the W-30 parts were added during the build up and not as a dealer-installed Track Pack. But them, I'm a cynic. As I've stated before, I'm always very skeptical of highly optioned, body-off restorations, because invariably the rare components and options were added during the resto.

joe_padavano

Wow, the more you look at the ebay pictures, the more it becomes obvious that this car is a total fabrication. The convoluted routing of the A/C hoses around the O.A.I. ducts is why this was not a factory option. The horns are also in the wrong place (they should be on the fender lip). One has to wonder if the disk brakes are correct four piston calipers or not. $60k and "The air conditioning system is not currently fucntional."?! "The original V.I.N. tag is still rivited in the door jamb." - Gee, I sure hope so! And since the car has seen only 17 miles since the resto, clearly this car was assembled solely for the purpose of resale. My gut says this car is a complete fabrication. I'm willing to bet it was an original automatic trans car with drum brakes.

wmachine

Would you please email me the pics? The posted pics are too small and low res to read. wmachine@shubes.net
Thanks!

f-85

Ill send them now.


I emailed the guy again asking some more questions. But he didnt get back to me. Probably because i called him out on the W-30 listing i found. So im sure he just just some hustler looking for a sucker.

f-85

Well i got a responce. Here it is

Hello Josh,
Just curious, what are your thoughts on the car? If you are concerned about the documentation on the car you can call Steve at Fusick Automotive. There number is 860-623-1589. He will verify what I have told you. They are one of the leaders on Oldsmobile restoration.
Ray


I asked for the documentation of the car car for proof. We will see.

wmachine

Good. When someone says they have "documentation" without being specific, ask to see it just like you did. I always add the word "legible". Means nothing if you can't read it/check numbers, etc.
Yeah, easy to drop names like Fusicks. I don't know who Steve is, but I know Mike and and know is justifiably *very* slow and reluctant to endorse or verify anybody's claims. So what exactly does "he will verify what I told you". What are we verifying here? A lot of very unspecific chatter coming from this guy.

f-85

Yeah it sounds like BS. But ill wait and see what he has. I told him that i want a real W30, not a clone. And i asked for proof of the originallity. I also asking in my first email of pics of the restoration. But didnt get that. So we will see what he gives me.

Jamesbo

IMHO

If it walks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck, it's more than likely a Duck.

I would be very skeptical.

rocketraider

It means that they spent a pile of money on repro parts with Mike and Dave. Steve is kinda their day to day operations manager- Dave and Mike are both "semi" retired now. Well-deserved IMHO because they have worked hard for us Oldsmobile enthusiasts for nearly 40 years now.

Like I said, I tend to be cynical on a car like this. If it were a stripper 442, I'd listen closer, but a fully loaded W30 just doesn't sound kosher to me.

Y'all may recall I've started threads on loading a car up with options during restoration, and that I have a low opinion of doing that. This car could be the poster child for why NOT to do it.

"But that's the way I'd have ordered it new!" Bullshit. You can't order what the factory won't build, and I think W30 are good examples of cars that HAD to be built a certain way. Proves to me that the "restorer" really knows little to nothing about the car he's working with.

wmachine

Okay, I think I can pretty much sum things up with this car. Special thanks to Bob (67post) for sending me a nice legible pic of the body tag he saved from the Ebay ad.

1. The Ebay ad was worded truthfully. BUT it was *very* carefully worded with the full intention of totally misleading a buyer. Shamefully clever.
2. The Cars-on-Line ad is outright fraud.
Okay, the car was admittedly (though the truth was obscure) not a W-30. I have more proof it isn't, but no need to go into that.

What was it originally?
Black (black top, no vinyl) with red bucket seat interior
Air Conditioning
4-speed (Sorry Joe) no console.

What was added?
W-30 parts, obviously
Vinyl top
Black interior.
Power windows (probably part of reason to change to black interior)
Power antenna
Console
All of the above for sure, and who knows what else.
The POP would reveal more, but I haven't seen a legible pic.

So it this car a problem? No, not at all.
I personally think it is a shame that a basic 4-speed A/C car was "modified" (even with correct Olds options) when it appears to have documentation. But it isn't butchered or anything like that.
All the seller has to say is that he is selling a '67 442 4-speed A/C car with a *lot* of options added. And it would all would be fine, no problem.

joe_padavano

I would tend to agree (and as I said originally, the 67 in question is a total fabrication), but my 68 W-30 IS a well-optioned, factory-built car. PW, PSeat, non-A/C, manual drum brakes, 4.33:1 po... er, anti-spin. It was an AT originally but was converted to a 4spd by a previous owner. It also had a Hone overdrive (predecessor to GearVendors) installed but that was gone when I got the car. The car has 27,000 original miles on it, all applied a quarter mile at a time. It then sat in a field for five years before I got it, so it's still pretty rough. It does have some interesting things, like the original factory wire hose clamps with little staples to keep the clamps on the hoses prior to installation on the assy line.

It's possible that this combination of options and W-30 package may have been ordered to hit a specific shipping weight and thus a specific class for NHRA stock.

wmachine

Very interesting aspect, as to how the W-cars came equipped. Especially in the early years.
I'm confident in saying the particularly in '66 and '67, that virtually all of the '66s and the majority of the '67s were not ordered by the buyer (thus equipped to a buyers specs, but were "made to be sold" with the ordering done by Oldsmobile on levels from dealers, to Zone Managers, to the factory itself in the case of special runs like these. I don't believe there was *any* real logic to how they were equipped beyond the speed equipment. "Logic" would have made them all post coupes because they were the lightest. But they certainly weren't. And any options that added weight and/or were power-robbing wouldn't have been included. They were indeed more sparsely optioned, and none of them were loaded, but the option choice was still puzzling considering their intended use. I don't think they were trying to hit a certain weight was their goal, as some were definitely heavier than others. I believe that all this "Wmachine, racing stuff" was still too new for them really to be that focused. And there definitely was a struggle going on between Engineering and Marketing and other departments that would affect the way the cars came.
As another example, I know the there are a number of '67 W-30s with vinyl roofs. Joe's '68 W-30 is a great example.

joe_padavano

I'm going to disagree there, Kurt. In the NHRA stock ranks, since classes carry a factored HP per lb rating, playing mix and match with options is routinely done to slot a particular drivetrain and body combo into the top or bottom of a specific class.

wmachine

Of course what you say is true, Joe. But I don't see how that plays into what actually went down. For instance, all the '66 w-30s were made within a couple weeks in '66. They were run in NHRA C/stock class, I believe. What would multiple weights do for them in that case? I'm just trying to make sense of weight bearing options. (Except for a power antenna, which adds weight over the right rear)

joe_padavano

I'm not suggesting that was the case for the 66/67 cars, but my 68 was definitely an unusual combination.

67post

Speaking of '66 C/stock W30s, you know those guys from MA found that old winner a couple of years ago? Not sure if the power antenna was still there though.

Bob

f-85

Well the guy got back to me again this was his email


Josh,
There is no way to prove that this is a real W-30 since all the records were burned. The only way to have proof is a window sticker and the chance of that is extremely slim. I only know of one car that has the window sticker and it is not for sale. He recently turned down 100 grand for the car. If you are interested in the car make me an offer.
Ray



So i emailed back sory not interest, not at all.


then he hit me with this.

Josh,
Good luck in finding a documented 67 W-30. Out of about 130 cars produced there are only a hand full that still exist. The last one I saw that was documented was on ebay and it sold for $55,000 and it was unrestored. My friend has one that has the window sticker and he turned down 100 grand. Unless you plan to buy and flip the car documents shouldn't mean that much to you. The market has gotten squarely over documents. Oldsmobiles are next to impossible to document. I am sure you have found that out.
Ray



what an ***.


Well we are going to buld a fun street/strip car insted. Lookinf for a solid 64-67 car f-85 or cutlass. $10k or less. Must be solid. Good paint would be a plus, bu the rest doesnt really matter.

Thanks again for all the help guys. You saved our *** on this one.

Run to Rund

Power brakes were available on W30s in 67: See the bimini blue car in SS&DI Aug 67 issue and the saffron (yellow) car in High-Perf Cars Oct 67. 398678-9 were the OEM red inner fenders, replaced in the GMPD books 3/1/67 with the steel parts. So, the red fenders were very briefly available through GMPD. Curt Anderson told me the factory 67s were built in Jan and April. In 67, all 442s were based on 3800 series cars (Cutlass), not F85 (3400 or 3600 series). He and I can tell whether a 66-7 W30 car is factory, through the various production details of how they were built to tell for sure in a difficult case. No C60 (AC) or convertibles were built at the factory in 66-7 with the W30 option. Other things were mandatory options like HD radiator, posi, M21, 4.11 in 1966. In 67, of course, the T400 was available, column or floor shift. PB was included with the disk brake option. There was enough vacuum with the 400 engine, although using that cam in the 350 W31 resulted in less vacuum and use of manual disk brakes.

As an aside, the factory intended the W30 Track Pack kit (or in the case of existing racers, the individual parts before the kit was assembled and offered through GMPD) to be added as a dealer or owner installed option in those years. The kit part number was 230195 for 1966, 230309 for 67. In their eyes, the result was not what today is dismissed as a "clone." It was simply a post-manufacturing date installed option, just like even the hard core critics today don't call a car a clone if the owner adds power steering or a radio. Those items were merely options, just like the W30 package, and up through 1967, so was the 4-4-2 merely an option (L69, L78, W29).

The horns were relocated for the W30 package in 67, one to each fender above the hoses.

wmachine

And they went to 4.33s std in '67, but kept the 4-pinion P type 10 bolt instead of using the new O-type Olds rear. Contrary to some indications and beliefs, the 4-pinion carrier was not exclusive to the W30s.
Yes, all '67 W30s were 3800 Cutlass Supremes. Simply because the W30 package required the L78 442 option, and the 442 was only available on the 3800 Cutlass Supremes.

Joe, I "found" some rather interesting '67 W30 info. This will re-write the record books a little. As I told you before, within the last year I've been doing some research in the Olds records at the GM History Center. In a computer printout there is a monthly breakdown of production options by series. It clearly shows that 504 (not the widely accepted 502) were produced, and how many each month. Production started in Jan, the majority were in March, none in April and May, and 1 in June. I have sent this info to Curt Anderson.

f-85

Wow great info guys.

rancher753

Saw this discussion and it was several years ago, but going to take a chance that someone can help. Looking at a 67 442 W30 that was said to have been verified by Curt Anderson. Is there a way to get hold of Mr. Anderson to see if he did look at this car. Or anyone else that can help. Appreciate all the help we can get.
Thanks

Jimi2much

Man , that car has been around forever .
Saw it at the Pavilions ( Scottsdale AZ . ) for sale last weekend .
Price on the handout was 75,000 . 00 . The local listing dealer for the car is Highline Auto . I will probably see this car again this Saturday .
Let me know if you want any specifics to be checked . There will be a large amount of knowledgeable 67 442 people around that evening .
Thanks , Jim Tuma

rancher753

Thanks Jim
I'm in Scottsdale too, so may see you at pavillian. Sure appreciate any help verifying W-30 status.

rancher753

My phone # 432-413-8439. Hope to meet you and other Olds guys this saturday at Pavillion. Would appreciate any and all info you could share. Larry