98form

I have an electrical problem that I cannot figure out. This happened all of a sudden, and have never had electrical problems before. I have intermittent power to start the car. It will crank for about 2 seconds weakly, then nothing. No headlights, no dash lights, no power anywhere inside the car. I have power at the battery and at the junction on the drivers side fender that goes down to the starter and then nowhere else. Where does the power go from the starter? Could the starter or solenoid be causing this? Wouldn't I still have power for the headlights, etc even if the starter or solenoid are faulty? The connections to the battery are clean and tight. After it cranks for the 2 seconds weakly, then I won't have power again until I try it the next day. Then the symptoms repeat. Thanks for any insight you can offer!

tru-blue 442

Bad battery or starter, possibly the solenoid.

MDchanic

Are you sure your battery connections are clean?

Are they shiny?

Have you checked the connection between the horn relay and the starter, and made sure those terminals are shiny, too, and that the wires are in good condition?

- Eric

oldcutlass

What is your battery voltage? Check your connection at the horn relay junction block on the drivers fender.

Mikes442

Clean your ground to the engine and make sure you have a ground from the engine to the body. Shorts like that happen to your lights if the ground is not grounded at the lights.

My two cents.

Mike

stellar

Sounds like a shorted battery to me. Not uncommon in hot weather.

m371961

Volts at battery with all off and then while trying to crank?

98form

Ok guys...my battery terminals are so clean you could eat off of them. I have 12.87 volts at the battery terminals and at the positive junction on the driver's fender. After reading your responses (thank you), I thought that maybe the hot weather (it had been above 95 every day last week) had gotten to the battery and shorted it out, or that it was shorting out under load from the starter. I replaced the battery with a new one and I'm getting the same thing. I will clean the ground to the engine and file at it to bring fresh metal out, but it looks clean to me now and all of my connections are tight. I am starting to think that it is the solenoid on the starter. The problem is...how in the hell do I change the starter??? I did some research on here about that and the only post I see is about some guy PULLING THE ENGINE to replace the starter. It is really cramped under there...I'm thinking I will at least have to remove the exhaust manifold on the driver's side. Any other suggestions?

MDchanic

You are describing losing all car power after attempting to crank the engine.

This is not a symptom of a bad starter.

As stated above, this is a symptom of a bad connection or maybe a shorted battery.

Just changing parts (like installing a new battery when the old battery read 12.87 volts) is not going to fix this problem.

Current in this car flows from the battery, through the heavy cable to the large post on the horn relay. From there, a heavy wire goes down to the starter, a less-heavy wire goes to the alternator and regulator, and a similar wire goes to feed the rest of the car.

You are having a problem in the area where both the starter and the rest of the car are fed, so the positive or negative battery terminal or the horn relay post, or the ground strap on the back of the engine.
I would check those very carefully, and check them for voltage immediately after cranking, when nothing is working. Check each wire at each position.

If the problem has changed, and is no longer the same as the problem you originally described, please let us know.

To change the starter, you

• Disconnect the battery
• Jack up the car
• Find a sturdy object (toolbox, milk crate) that is nearly as high as you've jacked the car and drag it under there with you
• Unscrew two starter retaining bolts
• Carefully let the starter down and rest it on the box
• Remove three nuts holding three wires
• Remove starter from under car

.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I agree as Eric stated, the starter is not effecting the rest of your electrical system. Start checking with your voltmeter where you stop getting voltage from the battery back.

RandyS

I would try replacing your battery cables, especially if they are original to the car. If you have cable that has a break inside the insulation, with maybe one strand still conducting, you will measure the correct voltage at the horn relay block, but the cable doesn't have enough material left conduct the amperage necessary to start the car or run the lights. Just a thought..........

98form

Thank you all for the suggestions and trying to point me in the right direction. I did some more testing today. I have 12v power at the battery, at the horn relay junction block, at the alternator, at the ignition switch plug. I wanted to see if power was getting into the interior of the car so that is why I checked there. However, I am starting to think this is a ground problem more than anything, as some of you have stated it may be. I looked at the ignition switch in an attempt to identify which wire was connected to what. This is what was stamped into the switch:

Red - BATT
Pink - IGN
Purple - SOL
Brown/White - ACC
Green (2 wires) - GND

With the ignition harness plug unplugged, I used my volt meter to make sure I was getting 12V on the Red wire. I first put the positive lead into the plug on the Red wire terminal and the negative lead into the plug on the double Green wires and got nothing. Then I put the negative lead onto a bolt under the dash and got 12V. So my question is now this: Am I correct that the 2 Green wires are supposed to be the Ground? If so, where do these wires connect to make the Ground? I am still not getting any headlights, etc, so I am thinking that the entire interior of the car is without a ground. The ground that runs from the engine block to the battery is good and tight and I get a solid 12V reading from the battery, from the horn relay junction, and from the alternator 12V while using this ground with the negative lead from my voltmeter. Also, one last question, what is the small square black box that is on the firewall? It says Delco Remy on it and it looks like the wires from alternator go into this box (red, yellow, and blue) and it also has another wire that goes into it, which I think is black or brown. Again, thanks for all of your help.

tru-blue 442

The little black box you refer to would be
your voltage regulator.
Do you have a ground from the back of
the engine to the firewall?

It should be a short bradied wire app. 6" or
so long and located on or below the right side
head in the back to the firewall.

MDchanic

No.


These wires provide a path to ground so that the HOT light will go on briefly while cranking.


I'd be thinking about my headlight switch being bad.


That's the regulator.

Might I suggest that now might be an excellent time for you to get a copy of the Chassis Service Manual, so that you can look at the wiring diagrams and see where the different wires go and what they do, and what the different electrical components are for?

- Eric

oldcutlass

I'd look under the dash to see where the red wire from the junction block comes through the bulk head connecter and follow it. That wire goes to a junction and branches out and feeds the cigarette lighter, ignition switch, light switch, etc...

As also stated it can be a ground failure, you can run a jumper from the negative side of the battery to the body and see if that makes anything work.

Just because you read voltage on wiring with no load it does not necessarily make the wiring good. It can open under load do to a break.

98form

I have 12v under the dash. Where does the ground come from for the interior of the car?

oldcutlass

The ground to the interior of the car should be a braided strip from the back of the block to the firewall.

joe_padavano

The problem you describe is common for an intermittent or high resistance connection, usually at the battery. How are you verifying that you have 12V? If you are using a low impedance VOM, even a high resistance connection will show 12V, but it will NOT flow enough current to start the car. I've had this happen where the lights initially worked, then once I tried to start the car the battery terminal arced due to resistance and then no power. It would be intermittent.

Find and fix your loose or dirty connection in the primary battery cables.

98form

I looked at the battery connections again. Everything was tight. I decided since the battery cables were original, to remove the cable from the terminal connector and cut/remove the old exposed wire back to the insulation. I then cut the insulation back about an inch and put the newly exposed wire back onto the terminal connector, tightened everything down, and whaddyaknow! It fired right up. How frustrating to go through all of that and have it be right there in front of me. I guess the amount of time being without insulation must have deteriorated the exposed wire's ability to conduct current somehow. What a fluke thing to happen. Glad that is over with! Thanks to you and everyone else who helped me narrow down the issue.

oldcutlass

Did you just slip it in there or recrimp it somehow?

tru-blue 442

A set of steel or brass brushes
is an addition to anyone's toolbox.
Glad you figured it out.

MDchanic

Glad you got it fixed!

- Eric