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Paint/Filler/Rust removal. Best methods for my situation.
There appears to be a ton of body filler on my car, as if most of it was coated with a 1/4" layer like it was used as a quick way to smooth out the whole body rather than lining up the various panels. Also, my car was a vinyl top in its past life and it looks as if the vinyl was removed and the paint applied right over the glue... A majority of the interior metal, particularly on the top sections, has an even film of surface rust. It's like the car was stored in a hot, humid environment and the moisture collected in the upper parts of the roof and quarter panels. Other than sections of the trunk pan and the right quarter panel, it looks like a majority of the metal will be ok. BUT, I'm concerned about how to remove all the body filler without warping the sheet metal or making it too thin by the time the paint, filler, and rust are removed. I contacted a media blaster who quoted me $1200 to do the whole car and they typically use garnet as a blast media. What input do you all have about the best way to strip everything? I could have it dipped, but that's much more expensive and I'm concerned about residue leaking from all the crevices. Also, how do you handle surface rust inside of all the bracing of the roof, hood, trunk, etc.? I'm throwing a lot of questions out here, it's overwhelming between all the choices, what to trust, and what to use where...
Surface rust is the least of your worries. What's likely most critical is the roof area. Especially, that a vinyl top once covered it. If you hadn't described it to detail, I would have recommended posting images.
If you want to avoid warping, it'll be much more work, since you would otherwise be poking around in the dark. warping can always get straightened out and since the final phase will require filler, if you're not doing it the Old School way with lead, minor imperfections won't really matter.
The way I would go about it is, first of all, do it off-frame. There's no point in doing this half way.
For removing all Bondo and finding all thin spots, I'd apply an oxygen-acetylene torch. Once the sheetmetal stops sputtering, popping and melting, you've then found sheetmetal in its original thickness. When you're done, it'll look like Swiss cheese. But, after that, if you do things meticuluously, you shouldn't get unpleasant surprises afterwards down the road. Where you can get access to outter panels for bumping them straight again, I would braze in new metal. Brazing will give you the guaranteed seal that you're not guaranteed when using electric, ijn which case, you would then need to confirm a perfect weld using ultra-sound.
If you're not about to replace complete rocker panels, then there's no way out than to use electric methods
dipping is best but if $ is a concern get it media blasted and clean well or sand sand sand . and by the way there is no place for brazing in body work, metal should be welded in , nothing sticks to braze, not filler or paint ,not to mention the extreme heat and warping caused by brazing ,unless you want to see your body work and paint crack and bubble up
I sandblasted a couple of cars years ago myself. It's difficult to not warp the metal though possible. Worse areas are the large panels like roof or hood. Messy, sand everywhere for months. I'm currently working on a project that was sandblasted 10+ years ago, has been at two other shops that did work, and now that I have it, I'm still getting sand fall out of it as I flip it around.
I have chemically stripped cars with good success and then use a small sandblaster to get a few rusted spots. As you're only blasting small specific areas, it's easier to control where sand goes. Messy but effective and lot of work.
I've used strip disc's and sanding disc's, lot of work and dusty. Need to be careful not to get the metal hot and warp it.
I've seen mixed results on dipping depending on the rinsing method to remove all the chemical residue and/or if they have the capability to phosphate and E-coat dip. Personally, I don't think I would have one dipped though some folks on the site may have had good luck with it and recommend it.
Personally, I wouldn't apply any more heat to the metal than was necessary as it will warp the panels unless you are skilled at shrinking and working metal. As someone else stated, brazing is older school and was never really liked. Any brazing I've come across, I've had to cut out and mig weld repair (tig weld probably being a better choice but I've gotten use to mig).
Some shops will use a skim coat of filler all over the body to get it perfectly flat. This coat of bondo is sanded and usually ends up being completely removed to paper thin to about 1/8th inch in spots. Some shops use glazing putty which I don't like because it shrinks and can crack over time.
The difficult and hard to reach places that won't be seen which have surface rust (roof bracing, etc.) I would suggest knocking as much off with a wire brush manually or on a drill, blow off and coat with Por-15. I've used this stuff and it works great for me to stop rust.
My next project I think I will use the dustless media blasting. The media used is a type of crushed glass so it's not as abrasive and sprayed with air and water to reduce dust and heat. It gets rid of paint, body filler, and rust. Though I've never used it, I've checked it out on the web and looks to work pretty good. I'm sure some others here have had it done and will be able to chime in on actual results.
Each of us have our own opinions of the best way and I suggest using what makes you feel comfortable. Good luck with your project!
My plan was to do a complete tear down and have the metal stripped by a business. It sounds like warping panels is really easy. Maybe I will chemical strip the hood and roof myself then turn the rest over to the media blaster. My main concern is the media blaster ruining the metal by spending so much time carving out the body filler. Is this a valid concern or will it just come right out without issue? I am also concerned about getting the rust out of all the tight seems in the body panels. Once I get the body back from the blaster, should I POR the entire interior first, or just in the seams? I am assuming that there will be some metal that will need to be replaced. The less the better however. I got most of the trunk stripped yesterday. I'll get started on the interior today.
Having learned the hard way, be extremely careful with the hood and roof. They are both very easy to deform and most difficult to smooth out satisfactorily. So large and mostly flat that any imperfection shows right up. I would agree with using a strong chemical paint remover first on those areas. Fenders can be blasted with no worry of distortion due to their profile which adds lots of strength. Once you get it down to the bare metal, I would suggest spraying on an Epoxy Primer. Much faster than brushing on Por15, will give you a smoother surface to work from, and will seal well against further rust.
Last edited by RandyS; June 20th, 2020 at 02:23 PM.
i use aircraft remover.good stuff and neutralizes with water.it will soften putty to where you can take a putty knife and scrap it off.just don't get it on ya as it burns like hell.
Dustless blasting works well and does not create the heat like reg media blasters. It also uses a fine media that leaves a nice finish for a primer to grip. It would be best to have body on a rottisserie to expose and easily reach all areas. Ideal to do it on a dry sunny warm day. Important to have the additive in the mix that prevents flash rust. If you blow out the water from all the crevices and spray everything down with a spray bottle of a product called after blast by eastwood it should prevent any flash rusting. Once dry, you can go over the whole thing with a scotchbrite pad as best as possible and maybe spot blast any areas missed. Paint the whole thing with epoxy primer to seal it. Then begin metal and body work. Just my experience.
May want to ask for references on the media blaster you found and talk to a few guys that have had their cars done by them. A company that blasts big trailers and backhoe buckets is not the one you want blasting the sheet metal of your car. Even if you have to transport the car a couple hundred miles would be better for piece of mind.
May want to ask for references on the media blaster you found and talk to a few guys that have had their cars done by them. A company that blasts big trailers and backhoe buckets is not the one you want blasting the sheet metal of your car. Even if you have to transport the car a couple hundred miles would be better for piece of mind.
Gotcha. How do you deal with spot welded seams that you cleaned rust around from? If the panels are lightly rusted and you get it all sandblasted off, I would think that there would be some level of rust in the seam that you cant get out. Will epoxy primer prevent it from spreading? Or is there some way to treat it prior to the primer? It seems unrealistic to completely disassemble every piece of metal on the car to get the unseen stuff. If the rust is heavy I can definitely see having panels replaced/repaired but otherwise... My OCD will have me rebuilding the entire car with new metal without guidelines...
...Any brazing I've come across, I've had to cut out and mig weld repair...
Either corrosive chemical reaction between the flux used for brazing and the sheetmetal took place (if it even does) or a full hermetic bead wasn't brazed in. The bronze used in those rods certainly isn't subject to corrosion
Originally Posted by MI68442W30
...nothing sticks to braze, not filler or paint...
The braze itself, if done properly, should only take place in between panels, since the molten bronze will follow the heat applied. Any bronze left outside of the joint can get sanded down. If Bondo won't stick to braze whatsoever, there's a possibility that lead will. I've never used lead, since even back then it was a dying art of which nobody taught us in auto tech. Therefore, my hunch on lead possibly sticking to bronze was meant as a question and not to be taken as dogmatic reference on the subject
Last edited by Killian_Mörder; June 24th, 2020 at 10:59 PM.
BTW, I am with you on the OCD. Gets me in trouble a lot!
Everyone has a different view of what will and won't work when it comes to paint and bodywork based on their own experiences and/or what they have been taught. I've been working with paint and bodywork for many years so I can only give my suggestions and opinion based on my experiences (not saying my way is the correct way), just works for me. I haven't had good luck priming over rust, even with 2k primers, it eventually comes back. 2k primer is excellent on bare metal but areas such as the inside of doors or areas inside around the roof where the brackets are welded and may have some rust are locations I use Por 15 Rust Preventative Permanent Coating. As this is liquid, it works pretty well getting into cracks and between seams where metal is spot welded together. I seem to remember something about it not liking UV rays so if you were to use it on the inside of a truck bed, you would need to apply a topcoat of your choice. I suggest going to their website and reading how to apply it if you plan on using it. Again, someone may have a better experience with another product but I've had good luck with this one.
CAUTION: Whatever this goes on WILL NOT come off if not removed within a minute or two. This includes skin! First time I used it, I got some on my hands but didn't think much about it. When I tried to clean up, nope, not coming off. It had to wear off over the next few days. I accidentally dripped some small spots on my concrete floor. Several days later I tried to get them up with a putty knife. Wouldn't budge so I got a hammer and tapped the putty knife. Brought a small chip of concrete up with it! Also, once you use it and get some around the lid of the can, the next time you try to open the can (a few months later), you will probably destroy the can trying to get the lid off...
Anyway, I knock off the rust the best I can with a wire brush, blow it out, wipe down what I can with a prep solvent, or wash it, let it dry, and paint on/in Por 15. Of course, the best way would be to get rid of all the rust either blasting or cutting it out. However, sometimes this isn't practical. Depending on the conditions the vehicle is subject to, there is always a chance of metal rusting, whether it is returning or is popping up in a new area.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by rickman; June 25th, 2020 at 04:53 AM.
Thanks for all the input, I've got most of the body stripped now which leads me to dealing with the body work. The body may sit for a couple months while I get the metal work done, how do I prevent rust from forming on the bare metal after blasting if its going to sit for months? I wouldn't think that I would spray it with epoxy primer first? I would have to grind it all off everywhere I would need to weld. What is the standard for dealing with this? Some kind of liquid rust preventative that would need to be washed off when its time to primer?
Reread #8 . After stripping, paint it with epoxy primer. It can then sit for months without rusting.
you can then start your bodywork over the epoxy primer. Good luck
There is also a rattle can 'Weld Thru' primer available. It will protect the metal from rust, and you don't need to sand/grind it off before welding in new metal. As mentioned, if you are storing bare metal in a somewhat temp controlled (dry) area, you don't need to worry about rust forming.
Alright, I did read post #8 and that is what prompted my clarification. Grinding epoxy primer back far enough everywhere a clean weld is needed sounds like a real pain but if that is the most reliable way then so be it. I would rather do that then deal with more rust. I can keep the car in an enclosed carport but not environmentally controlled enough for me to be comfortable with a no rust situation with all that bare metal. I appreciate all the replies, I had a hard time getting a straight answer with google!
Well, after finishing the tear down I decided that the best way to get all the rust out of all the crevices was to have the whole thing dipped. There is a facility within an hour from me that can do the job. Its really expensive but at least its thorough. $2200 to get the body, doors, and deck lid done for anyone wanting a comparative cost. The fenders are in questionable condition and I will probably be going with a different hood. 4 to 6 week wait, which should give me enough time to finish the frame. I'll post pics on the outcome.
Those dips sometimes turn out to be unpleasant surprise packages. What used to look lie a car, sometimes leaves the tub looking like a piece of Swiss cheese
June 19th, 2020, 11:22 PM
