costpenn

Have rebuilt the carb myself, no improvement, sent it off to Sparky's and still having issues.

455 4V will not start when the engine is cold. If I don't pump the carb, if I pump the carb, if I pump it a lot - no difference. It does not smell or act flooded. If I spray some starting fluid in, she starts right up. New fuel pump, lines, gas tank and pick up. It sounds like/feels like when I manually work the throttle cable that the carb is dry. It starts well when warmed up. Any other ideas?

gearheads78

After the car sits take the air cleaner off and have someone start pumping the gas pedal while you are looking down the carb with a flashlight. You getting any fuel from the squirters?

Grace Stinespring-Welch

did you drop your tank and change those lines?

oldcutlass

Or, if you don't have a helper you can manually operate the throttle by hand while looking down the carb.

Grace Stinespring-Welch

i never saw fuel go through squirters before.

Allan R

Joe, try using the GM starting procedure for the 72 outlined on P16 of the owners manual. Pumping the gas is not the recommended starting procedure. You have a 7042251 Qjet on it, right? You've checked the float in the fuel bowl for proper adjustment? Hard to believe you've run into such problems with this beast.

This is a frame off restoration that was just recently completed, so all the parts are new.

Sampson

Wow Allan! Is that really you? Good to see,you back and hope you are well

Sampson

Joe sounds like the float level in the carb is off. No fuel in the bowel equals no fuel to the accelerator pump equals no fuel to the squirters. When you rebuilt the carb did you check the float to make sure it didn't have a hole and leaking? Or sinking?

455 Olds 442

Hi I have been experiencing exactly the same problem. Thanks for the ideas everyone.

Richard

rocketraider

I'm convinced a lot of cold start issues we have are because of modern fuel formulae. My Custom Cruiser behaves the same way if it has sat a couple days. I think the newer high-volatile fuels evaporate out of the fuel bowl quickly.

I've started spinning the engine over for a few seconds to prime the fuel bowl before pressing the pedal to set the choke. Still kinda clumsy, but it will usually start after doing that. That's not saying it will always stay running... Second attempt is almost always successful.

rocketraider

Good to know next time I have the squirts!

Octania

Leaky well plugs or something wrong with the fuel level in the carb. Leaky float would make for excessively high fuel level, right? You should have fuel produced at the accelerator pump discharge nozzles anytime the carb is actuated, so that's the 1st thing to check, when cold. Hold the choke plate open so you can see, illuminate as needed, use a mirror if you wish, and verify that opening the carb causes fuel to flow from the AP nozzles into the engine.

On a cold engine, one press of the gas pedal should set the choke and make her ready to run... my 403 starts immediately using this procedure. Takes a couple of blocks to get the fast idle to come down, but I can live with that.

costpenn

Thanks for all the replies. I'm beginning by changing out the fuel filter to a GF-471 - the long paper one WITH the check valve. The one in the carb was the non check valve type. Will report back with if this makes any difference.

BILL DEMMER

the check valve usually causes more problems than it solves(if it actually solves any).
when your engine is cold, does the choke snap shut completely when you depress the gas pedal once, before you turn the key to "start"?


bill

costpenn

Well the check valve filter didn't do the trick, but I figured out what was the problem. Pulled the carb off, and the accelerator pump cup had come completely off the shaft. Was not getting any squirting action happening and now know why. Have read some stuff on the Internet about the ethanol content causing, in a very short period of time, the rubber to swell and fall off. Going to call Sparky and see what he says.

Grace Stinespring-Welch

i hate when that happens. it sounds like a easy fix. good luck.

MDchanic

So much for a "professional rebuild," eh?

- Eric

72 w29 all green

Did Sparky install one that isn't affected by Ethanol? The last kit i used came from Cliff Ruggles and the rubber seals on the needle and accelerator pump are supposed to be Ethanol-safe. Time will tell.

BILL DEMMER

never had an out of box defective part in your life, eh?


bill

BILL DEMMER

cliff is getting his parts from the same place as sparky, i'll bet. there is only 1 manufacturer left for carb, parts, the market is that small.


bill

MDchanic

Point being that if it was bad out of the box, someone who's done thousands of them should have caught it.

- Eric

Octania

Post #2:
"You getting any fuel from the squirters?"

proper troubleshooting. A quick press of the acc pump shaft [w/o actuating the throttle] would then lead right to the culprit.

MDchanic

Post #2, 3 July:Post #15, 6 days later:Exactly...

- Eric

brown7373

When you sent it off to Sparky, did he check and adjust or did he put in a new kit and rebuild? I have no personal experience with Sparky, but have heard all good things from others on this site. I have always used Cliff, and NEVER have accelerator issues. With parts store kits, I had repeated issues of pumps deteriorating and failing, one the very first day. The rubber would swell, stick in the bore and pull right off the shaft.

As far as only one manufacturer, I don't know. Cliff's kits cost more than parts store kits, but include the float, a bunch of additional parts and most important, better parts.Cliff's kits don't come in a box like "Jiffy Kits", but rather are assembled and the individual pieces are then sealed in a plastic bag, with a check list of the specific parts per the application.

costpenn

Sparky's did an excellent job on the reman. I don't know where he gets his parts from, but he got the carb sorted out as far as installing the correct components for the intended application.

Here's a link to the replacement part I ordered this morning:

http://quadrajetparts.com/rochester-...2435-p-33.html

Hopefully this should do the trick.

Joe

BILL DEMMER

SMH

when I spec'd that carb. out, it was pumping properly and working smoothly. I make sure that every piece is working properly before I let it out of MY hands, and i'm a tough critic. if I don't like it, it gets looked at, right now. it's a check, double check situation at sparky's. what happened to the pump cup later, i don't know, but new parts do fail occasionally after a short time. unfortunately, it seems as though I won't be able to analyze this failure, as the customer is replacing the part himself. however, I will be paying extra attention to all of the pumps in stock from this batch, and forward.

btw, many years ago, i had a tomco accelerator pump break apart after 3 weeks on ernie, when he still had his 330.


bill

and another thing... Sparky and I are damn proud of the work we do. you bet your @$$ i'm taking this personally, and i was just starting to like you, md.

MDchanic

First, Bill, please allow me to apologize to you for any appearance of personally insulting you.
I either was not aware or had forgotten (lots of people, hard to keep track without faces) that you rebuild carburetors. Had this been in my mind, I would have chosen different words, though I will admit that much of my message would have been the same.

While not in any way meaning to impugn the quality of your work, which I am certain is excellent, nor your motivations, nor your personal honor as a craftsman, I do still, in general, believe that in the vast majority of cases, the car owner is better off doing the work himself than he is having someone else do it, for reasons that include cost, education (learning how things work, so as to be able to fix something next time), and the inescapable fact that (with very rare exceptions, such as in your case) nobody is going to care about how well a job on your car is done more than you [the owner] do.

If you have rebuilt a large number of carburetors, and you tell me that the accelerator pump skirt can be "bad out of the box" in a way that is invisible to the practiced eye, then I will accept your word without question, and admit to having been wrong when I said above that such a flaw should have been noticed, but I will also present my opinion that the person who spent several hours rebuilding his own carburetor, and understanding how it worked, would have been better situated to troubleshoot the same problem confidently and successfully.

None of what I say is intended to detract from the expertise of true carburetor experts, such as Cliff Ruggles (and you, I assume), with whom I have spoken, myself.
For specialized applications and modifications, their knowledge is invaluable, though I would say that in the best case, getting their advice (for a fee) and then proceeding, would always be preferable to just having them do the job for you.

In my own case, I rebuilt the stock original QJ on my stock-except-for-mild-cam 350, carefully followed the advice from Cliff's book regarding removing the idle air tubes in order to be able to clean the area below them, which he said would be very dirty, and completely destroyed them (yes, I used plenty of heat).
I spoke with him on the phone, in order to order a new set (a trivial profit for him, for having advised me to mess with something I never would have messed with), and told him what had happened. He said he was surprised, that they usually came out easily, and that he would have gotten them out regardless, but seemed very uninterested in the fact that his advice, faithfully followed, had caused someone to mess up a perfectly good part.
I'm certain that he knows his stuff, but I was not impressed by this interaction.
Oh, and by the way, there was absolutely no dirt or debris in the area under the air tubes.

Currently, my carb is working well, but I have a "cold-blooded" condition during the first few minutes after starting that I know should not be there. I have tried manually changing the choke plate position to more open or more closed (the vacuum break is set exactly to spec), but that has not helped. The power valve is down (not open due to low vacuum) when this is happening.
In theory, I could send the carb to one of the experts, or call Cliff on the phone and try to get free advice (which I believe would be unethical), but when I compare the magnitude of the problem with the potential downside of having the carb lost in the mail or messed up by an expert, I can live with it, and will keep it, and wait for the tiny piece of information or inspiration that will allow me to fix it, whenever it happens.

I will keep this on the subject of carburetor rebuilders and not stray to other sorts of mechanics and tradesmen, but I will say that I have heard of and personally experienced a huge number of horror stories from friends, acquaintances, and family members over the past fifty years, and so, when in doubt, I always advise a person that, empowered by information, he can do essentially any job himself at least as well as some stranger.
To repeat, this does not mean that I think anything less of the quality of your own work.

- Eric

brown7373

[QUOTE=costpenn;564111]Have rebuilt the carb myself, no improvement, sent it off to Sparky's and still having issues.


Joe, I did not say or imply Sparky's did anything wrong or improper. You said you rebuilt the carb, then sent it to Sparky. You didn't make clear what Sparky did. Was it for a rebuild or refurbish with new (his) kit or using your parts already installed, or just an inspection and adjustment. There was also no mention originally of what kind of rebuild kit was used. The accelerator pump problem is fairly common with pump cups not designed to work with ethanol.

costpenn

WOW - everybody calm down - I get enough of this at work!!

Sparky's did an excellent job of turning an piece-o-crap giant mistake I bought on ebay - with all the internals not even being close to what I was sold, into a carb that runs MUCH better than what I started with, at a fraction of the time and cost it would have taken me to dial it in. (he rushed it through - at no additional charge so I could make a show I was wanting to attend and only charged me 200.00)

Maybe my initial post was misleading and mischaracterized the situation. I am more than satisfied with my Sparky's experience. The accelerator pump problem might be more of an issue down here because to the heat and ethanol content. I got my own accelerator pump not because Sparky's would have not dealt with the situation (he sent me a private email offering to do whatever was needed to fix the problem), but because I started snooping on the internet, found a solution with the HD pump assy, and bought it. This way, the carb wouldn't have to be sent back and forth and I could have it ready for "summer fun" a little quicker.

I'm not getting paid anything by Greg for saying any of this - the guy was just super great to work with.

oldcutlass

IMHO, $hit happens, Sparky has rebuilt many carbs for people on this site and others. New parts that look serviceable fail right out of the box and most of us have experienced this. I'm glad the issue has been found and hopefully corrected with the new part. I'm not into the finger pointing game for things that are sometimes out of anyone's control.

1970-W30

I'm also a bit puzzled by the fact that the OP never mentioned off idle stumble problems. If there is no pump action at all, wouldn't there be a hesitation or stumble every time the throttle is opened?

MDchanic

Thanks. That is the sort of information that is valuable to all members here.

- Eric

costpenn

I would have thought that too. Didn't seem to have any stumble off idle, but there was a little bog when stepping hard on the gas after rolling. Had not got that far yet in the debugging process in figuring out what was causing that.

DarrylJ

Can any of you guys get non ethanol fuel? In NY the Fast Trac stations have non ethanol premium that is 91 octane. My cars run much better with this fuel. Plus if it sits in the tank for awhile I am not too concerned. A little off topic but the carbs hate ethanol.

oldcutlass

I cannot get non-ethanol fuel anymore here in Mayberry. Also I run a Holley 3310 and it doesn't care whether I used one or the other. I can set my timing a bit higher with the ethanol but my fuel economy drops about 10%. At 6 mpg 10% isn't that noticeable on my car, but on my wifes Mustang Gt it's quite noticeable. I've been running ethanol in my old cars for about 5 years with no adverse issues.

BILL DEMMER

First and foremost, Thank You! Joe/Costpenn, for trusting Sparky's Carburetor Service, and for the kind words pertaining to us. We truly do value your business and your satisfaction. I know that Sparky contacted you directly-I gave him the heads-up. We apologize for the inconvenience relating to the failed pump cup. We hope that the accelerator pump you obtained will solve your issue with your carb. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us-we're here to help.


Eric, I think we can move past this issue. It takes a bigger man to admit when he's wrong, and you seem to be a bigger man. Apology accepted. I understand that it's possible to lump all professional re-builders into one pile, and occasionally I have thought that way, mistakenly. As in every profession, there are hacks, and there are the good ones(usually few and far between). Now, I understand the frustration that Ron Rothe felt about his situation(somewhat related).

There are people in our hobby that can/do not, for whatever reason, do certain things regarding their vehicle(s). This is the reason that Sparky's Carburetor Service exists, and with many satisfied customers, grows. Word-of-mouth advertising is the best form of advertising, when it's good, and it is how we built Sparky's, from nothing, to where we are today. We don't want to be the biggest-just the best. And then there is the appearance issue, as far as I've seen, nobody else comes close to our results. There are many customers that want their carb. to look like it was made today. We're not getting rich doing this, and we don't want to. We do want a long, long line of happy customers, that makes it all worth it. We want the unhappy customer line to be non-existent, and we work hard to keep that line empty. We also love our Oldsmobiles and we want to see the marque carried-on, even though Oldsmobile is gone.

Accelerator pump cups are injection molded, any appreciable variation in the thickness of the cup can cause them to fold over or tear. They can look/feel good, but until we soak them in fuel(which also varies in quality) for a length of time, and apply pressure and heat to them, we really have no way of knowing. We have to trust our supplier, but they aren't about to tell us if they've had a quality issue. On the soft parts, it's kind of a crap shoot. We're the ones that find out if our supplier has a problem, from our own inspection, or our customer's feedback.

We try not to be strangers, if you're in the area, call ahead and come on over, we'll shoot the breeze with you, give you a tour, and maybe have a beer or 3. And we'll talk about just about anything, especially Oldsmobiles. Sparky even makes house calls regarding our carbs. and customer's cars. We don't think of ourselves as carburetor experts, we'll leave that designation to the engineers that designed them. We'll say we are quite good at getting even the worst carbs. to work as well as they possibly can, the first time we get a hold of them, and if you want, make them look phenomenal too.

Ok, let's get back to work on our Oldsmobiles!


Bill

Sampson

Ethanol gas is a real problem for certain applications. 2 cycle engines are particularly vulnerable to problems. I have had to replace the primer bulb on my boat the past 3 years in a row. Rebuilt the carb once. I think part of the reason is the length of time the boat sits over the winter even though we use stabilizer and high test gas. Same goes for most of our muscle cars. Sometimes a tank of gas lasts a long time even if we start the car a lot. Ethanol works great in the modern computer controlled engines that are used everyday. If it sits more than 30 days you will probably have problems. Just take a sniff of 30 day old gas
Joe glad you got things sorted out and can enjoy your fine ride!

costpenn

Bill, you are welcome.

The new accelerator pump fixed the problem.

oldcutlass

Glad it's fixed!!!! Maybe now you can into the enjoy the car mode for a while.