bobb

Back in the late 60's and early 70's we all know a variety of things killed the muscle car. But where was Olds headed before that happened? Seems everyone else had a plan.....Buick had the Stage 2, Chevy had the LS7, Pontiac had Ram Air 5.....so what did Olds have waiting in the wings?

regards,
bob

olds425

They had a couple experimental engines, one was a hemi type I think. IIRC it was 4 valves per cylinder and a total redesign, boy would that have been something.

redoldsman

Olds had the W-30 and the Hurst Olds.

rocketraider

Two words. Hemi Olds.

If insurance, emissions, and Chevrolet whining hadn't done it in, lord knows what we'd have seen from Lansing.

Now- if modern EFI and engine management can make Chrysler and Japanese hemi-head engines pass emissions and still run like a raped ape, then there's no reason the Olds design couldn't also.

We just don't have a car to put it in.

joe_padavano

W-43, to be exact. Get your hands on a copy of the May 1971 issue of Hot Rod Magazine for more info on what might have been.

bkeese

I think there were only three things that killed the muscle car, EMISSIONS, Detroit's unwillingness to spend R&D money on emissions and the fickle comsumer! In 1971, the way that the first emissions standards were written, emissions were measured based on volume of gas comsummed. So if you comsumed more gas you could pollute more. Detroit figured that lowering the compression and retarding the timing would consume more gas and that's how they passed emissions tests, the W31 couldn't pass and therefore was dropped. What could the American public do about it, buy Japanese cars? They didn't think so. Then came the 1973 oild embargo and long lines to buy gas somewhere north of 50 cents and you couldn't give away muscle cars. I had my best man try to sell his 1965 Mustang convertible K code HiPo 4 speed in great shape and finally accepted $200. Man I wish I had a time capsule back them. We both bought vans and built platforms in the back covered with shagg carpet. Now we are looking for those cars that someone did put into a time capsule and pay dearly for them.

I'll have to look in my boxes of old magazines for the May 1971 Hot Rod, I bet it's a good read.

Oldsguy

THE biggest reason in my opinion. Sad, sad story behind all that.

rocketraider

Yup. As soon as they got the price where they wanted it, there was more gasoline than you could burn. 100+ octane too. Manufactured and contrived gasoline shortages are nothing new.

And there I was with a 66 442 that got 8 mpg going downhill with a tailwind. Baby would roll though...

Am I the only one noticing pump prices creeping up over the last few days? Most here has upped by 8-11 cents a gallon in the last week or so, nearly 20 cents at some branded stations. Oh, that's right- it's heating oil season!

Any lame excuse to jack it up.

Oldsguy

Yes, they are going up here too. My wife thinks it is because a local grocery is running a promo that if you buy from them they will give you a discount card for fuel, so the prices for fuel have gone up accordingly......................................i t is much bigger than she realizes and not a local incident/reason behind it.

71supreme

Current Situation: dollar val. down, oil price up = higher gas prices

What I don't understand is why no one ever realized that a more efficient engine runs better and cleaner, and focus efforts in that direction.

joe_padavano

Muscle cars were declining in popularity several years before the 1973 oil embargo. The main issues were emissions requirements and insurance surcharges. Apologies to Rallye 350 fans, but face it, that was one of the first all show and no go "muscle cars" - all the looks of a W-30 with none of the pesky extra horsepower. From there is was a slippery slope to the screaming chicken Trans Am and the Mustang II King Cobra.

jensenracing77

very true. not much go but i fell in love with the show at 15. i wanted a W-30 but when i seen the Rallye 350 i said heck with the W-30.

toro68

Super lame excuse is right!
Maine is about $3.03/gallon (87 octance) at this time.

toro68

One of reasons for Oldsmobile, being behind the cuvre, this division was only getting $100,000 per year for thier racing program, and Chevolet had an open checkbook from GM.
This ticked off Dale Smith to no end!

I often wondered, if Joh Beltez( one of the movers and shakers of the 442 and Toronado), did not died of cancer in 1972 and/or moved up teh ranks to General Manger of Oldsmobile a few years soon, would teh W-43 Hemi seen the ligh tof day? Would be in better shape in 1990s?
Would Oldsmobile still be around today?

cutlassjoe

I can go one better than that. I live in Windsor Ontario, Canada and Work in Detroit Michigan. I filled up the Charger RT on Friday at 2.97 a gallon for 87.

I had the 442 out on Sunday to fill the tank before she goes to sleep. Sunoco Ultra 94 in Windsor was $1.18 per litre! Cost me about $60.00 for a little more than half a tank. I think I just threw up in mouth a little bit.....I would fill it up in Detroit, but there is no way in heck I am driving my baby through the hood'.

bobb

Hard to believe the W-43 would have ever seen the light of day. Remember the 455 was a torque monster....great for moving all those huge full-size Oldsmobiles around. If the bigger Olds didn't need the torque I doubt Olds would have ever come out with the 455. To be viable, whatever Olds came out with would still have to be based on what they were putting in the majority of their cars.....so offering something like the W-43 that would only be used in the Cutlass wouldn't make much sense. Olds didn't even have a high visibility racing program at the time. Something that just took the W30/W31 thing a bit further would make much more sense than a ovhead cammer that probably wouldn't fit in the engine bays. Now a turbocharged W30......

Would Olds still be around today? Wow....that one will open up a can of worms. My bet would be NO....they wouldn't. Other than the Aurora, Olds wasn't putting out any memorable cars before they were killed. I know everyone on here is an Olds guy........but let's be serious. I was looking for a new car when they got the axe....and I didn't even consider buying an Olds at the time. Neither did anyone else I assume.

CutlassJoe.....sounds like you should fill up the Charger in Detroit, drive it back and syphon it into the 442....then go fill up again. That or bring four 5 gallon containers and fill them up.

later,
bob

cutlassjoe

CutlassJoe.....sounds like you should fill up the Charger in Detroit, drive it back and syphon it into the 442....then go fill up again. That or bring four 5 gallon containers and fill them up.

later,
bob[/quote]

No Bob, what I need to do is to get my wife to move to the USA! Canada is nice the people are great, but the cost of living is out of this world. Especially the important stuff like gas, smokes(don't smoke anymore), and beer (still have a couple now and then).

Here's some examples.

Regular gas 87 - $103.00 litre $4.73 a gallon US /Roughly
Case of Budweier - $43.00 a case / Ya get 28 in the case though.
Smokes - Name brand about $8.00 a pack.
Sales tax in Ontario about 13% on just about everything.

Car cost $25,000.00 Tax is $3,250.00

Rickman48

It's been around $3 a gallon here in the Chicago area for quite a while - more in Chicago proper! I drive through most of the collar counties every week, and it used to be cheaper the farther out you got - not much, any more!!

We proved, back in the 60's, that certain modifications made more horspower, and a by-product was efficiency, and if you kept your foot out of it, mileage too!
Now, all of a sudden, [?] we're seeing fuel injection, turbocharging and supercharging all making these 'peanut' motors get horspower and mileage the same way! Again, if you can keep your foot out of it!
Of course, computers make most of it possible, but the 'hot rodders inguinuity' gave most of the engineers the idea!
And Chevrolet has to be given respect, as the lightweight small-block out-produced the Olds motor about a million to 1, and is still being produced! Not to mention the bodies were about 500-1000 lbs. heavier in most racing years!
Not that I'm a Chevy guy, or an Olds guy, but I've been a G.M. person all my life, and have owned/driven/modified them all, with satisfaction, including Buick, Cadillac and Pontiac!

rocketraider

The Hemi-Olds was ready to drop into the 1970 Toronado until the Corvette weenies started their tantrums. The Toronado being the flagship was to be the first to get it, then the 442 in 1971, then across the board as the big-inch offering by 1973. There was no intention of this being an A-body exclusive engine.

But the best-laid plans of mice and Oldsmobile gang aft a-gley, as me Scots forebears would have said.

olds 307 and 403

Dave H said the W43 4 valve hemi made 400+ horse power with 8 to 1 and .400 lift cams. It made over 500 with 9 to 1 and a hotter cam. With 10.5 to 1, a single 800 cfm Qjet and an even hotter cam made 650 hp!. That or the 700 hp DOHC 455 would have waisted the competition.