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I recently bought a 1967 442 out of a warehouse where it was parked since 1981. It is pretty highly optioned and seems untouched. The odd thing is that it has a 1968 engine. Even stranger is that the numbers match the protect-o-plate. Build date is 3rd week of May, and sale date of Jan 29 1968. Was this common to install newer motors into older car? This is my first toe dip into the Oldsmobile world? Anyone ever hear of this practice? I've included pics of how car was found and the plate
Olds did not have a time machine and did NOT install engines that didn't exist at the time the car was built. Any substitutions on the assembly line were well documented in factory literature. These cars carried a full warranty and Olds needed to be able to support claims and service at the dealerships and through the parts network. Random installation of non-specified parts would have made that impossible. As an example of the way the factory DID document substitutions when they happened, there were 750 1967 330 motors built at the very end of the 1967 model year using 1968 block and head castings. This is fully documented in both dealer service bulletins and in the parts book. Again, this was the 330 motor, not the 400.
As for your car, the more likely scenario is that the car needed a short block. The 1967 engine unit number is on the passenger side cylinder head, which readily bolts to a 1968 block. Your air cleaner apparently also came from the same 1968 as the short block. Have you looked for a VIN derivative stamp on the block? What's the model year of that stamp? It won't be 1967 because Olds didn't use VIN derivative stamps until the 1968 model year.
These cars are over half a century old. A LOT has happened to them after they were built. As an example, my 1967 Delta 88 has a "numbers matching" engine, despite the fact that it has a 455 short block. Only the one cylinder head with the engine unit number stamp is original.
Mabey I missed it, but what leads you to believe it is a 68 block? Olds did not use Julian casting dates like other GM divisions. They only had the day of the year the part was cast.
Here is my Feb built 68 toronado block casting date. Cast 30th day of 1968 for a car with a build date of the third week of February:
As a comparison, Here is the build date on a 68 427 block I built for my 66 chevelle. Cast the 19th day of August 1967.
Thanks for the quick reply. Both the block pad and head pad are blank, but the filler neck has the stamp which matches engine # from protect-o-plate, warranty info and original sales info. Engine #is 8000162 which I believe indicates the 162 engine of 1968 series. 2nd owner purchased car on 7/29/1970. I am 3rs owner. Was sold new on Pittsburgh and never left a 30 mile radius. Unfortunately previous owners have passed and obviously dealer no longer exists. Just trying to figure out why a 1068 engine is in my 67.
Thanks for the quick reply. Both the block pad and head pad are blank, but the filler neck has the stamp which matches engine # from protect-o-plate, warranty info and original sales info. Engine #is 8000162 which I believe indicates the 162 engine of 1968 series. 2nd owner purchased car on 7/29/1970. I am 3rs owner. Was sold new on Pittsburgh and never left a 30 mile radius. Unfortunately previous owners have passed and obviously dealer no longer exists. Just trying to figure out why a 1068 engine is in my 67.
First, what is the block casting number above the water pump?
Second, if the original heads were transferred to a new short block, they might have swapped sides. Look on the back of the driver side head for an engine unit number.
Third, the number on the oil fill tube is definitely a 1968 engine unit number.
I have to admit, the 1968 unit number on a P-O-P with a 1967 VIN is puzzling. That P-O-P format looks like a 1968 also. I wonder if this was some sort of demonstrator or executive car that got a blown engine and was redone to be sold?
Unfortunately car is at body shop getting rust repair for bottoms of 1/4s and fenders, so I can't go check on stuff. I've done considerable amount of research online at all of the usual sites but have not found anyone in my situation. I know the stamp pad on back of head is also blank as is the block. I figured this was due to them not putting vin on block in 1967. I believe she does have a G block with C heads. I did consider a warranty replacement may have occurred early in her life, bit that still doesn't explain the 1968 called out on P-O-P. I'll go grab some better pics tomorrow after Snowmageddon passes. I really do appreciate the input.
First, what is the block casting number above the water pump? ...........
. I wonder if this was some sort of demonstrator or executive car that got a blown engine and was redone to be sold?
Probable scenario with the "in service" date on the POP 1/29/68 (is there a mileage shown?) & the low sequence number on the oil fill tube points to WARRANTY
If it is a warranty replacement, from what I understand, it shouldn't affect originality or value. I have much of paperwork and sale history, but nothing about a replacement. Still not sure how it is on the POP to the original owner.
If it is a warranty replacement, from what I understand, it shouldn't affect originality or value. I have much of paperwork and sale history, but nothing about a replacement. Still not sure how it is on the POP to the original owner.
A long stroke G-block 400 with a cast crank will absolutely effect originality and value when the original motor was a short stroke E-block 400 with a forged crank.
Let me go to the shop and grab some more info and pics. So I'm wondering if it could have been a demo that was beaten on, engine replaced, then sold new to first owner. Would explain May build date and Jan sale. Its also loaded like a demo missing only power windows and A/C.
Let me go to the shop and grab some more info and pics. So I'm wondering if it could have been a demo that was beaten on, engine replaced, then sold new to first owner. Would explain May build date and Jan sale. Its also loaded like a demo missing only power windows and A/C.
That's my thinking, or an executive car that got blown up.
I don’t know if it matters but the PoP doesn’t use the 68 format. If it did it would have the two letter engine code on it.
I flipped it. I’m not good at reading mirror images.
Here, this is even easier to read.
The line below the engine unit number should be the trans unit number. Is that a Muncie date code? P7E09 would be a May 9, 1967 trans production date, which is actually consistent with the build date of the car now that I think about it.
EDIT: OK, sorry, I should have checked the PIM first. Thing is, the Muncie trans code should be "HF". That looks like "HP".
Joe, I have the metal tags with the POP from a 1964 Cutlass. It has errors in it. Since it has the buyers name on it, I'm thinking they were stamped out at the dealership. If it were an executive car as you guys are speculating, couldn't they have stamped out a POP that matched the engine in the car when sold to the public?
Joe, I have the metal tags with the POP from a 1964 Cutlass. It has errors in it. Since it has the buyers name on it, I'm thinking they were stamped out at the dealership. If it were an executive car as you guys are speculating, couldn't they have stamped out a POP that matched the engine in the car when sold to the public?
OK, I didn't appreciate that. This imprint is nowhere close to matching the metal P-O-P. Besides the "RP" vs "HP" (vs "HF). the engine unit number is aligned differently, and the line under the VIN is reversed ("Y OTF" instead of "OTF Y"). Obviously that imprint is not from the metal P-O-P we have a picture of.
OK, I didn't appreciate that. This imprint is nowhere close to matching the metal P-O-P. Besides the "RP" vs "HP" (vs "HF). the engine unit number is aligned differently, and the line under the VIN is reversed ("Y OTF" instead of "OTF Y"). Obviously that imprint is not from the metal P-O-P we have a picture of.
I agree & was trying to decipher how this may have happened. To me it looks like the "original" P-O-P is "gone"; however, the original P-O-P was, at some point in time, employed to actually "stamp" the Vehicle Protect-O-Plate Imprint. As you indicated, the information is not aligned accordingly between the two. Then, the dealership or some nefarious carbon-based unit produced a second P-O-P - which demonstrates instead of the original RP it had received an HP instead?
Well, this car has had at least two different P-O-Ps.
While I don't believe this particular car has a repro P-O-P, I just came across this website selling bogus P-O-P plates, which disturbs the hell out me, especially this line:
All Protect-o-plate plates are aged and are custom designed for your specific car
Even better is this page from that site:
Thing is, the dealerships typically did not have the metal embossing machines, only the mirror image Dymo tape machines for the owner's info.
On the other hand, the Addressograph stamping machines and typeface dies are on ebay.
Well, this car has had at least two different P-O-Ps.
While I don't believe this particular car has a repro P-O-P, I just came across this website selling bogus P-O-P plates, which disturbs the hell out me, especially this line:
Even better is this page from that site:
Thing is, the dealerships typically did not have the metal embossing machines, only the mirror image Dymo tape machines for the owner's info.
On the other hand, the Addressograph stamping machines and typeface dies are on ebay.
Well, this car has had at least two different P-O-Ps.
While I don't believe this particular car has a repro P-O-P, I just came across this website selling bogus P-O-P plates, which disturbs the hell out me, especially this line:
Even better is this page from that site:
Thing is, the dealerships typically did not have the metal embossing machines, only the mirror image Dymo tape machines for the owner's info.
On the other hand, the Addressograph stamping machines and typeface dies are on ebay.
A guarrantee, eh? I wonder if that misspelling is deliberate and intended as a legal defense.
Not sure if this helps, but these are the two warranty books which were in the glove box. This car has been forgotten n storage since 1981. From old McDonald's coffee stirrers to Mello cup wrappers, nothing in the car is newer than 81.
Two Owner Protection Manuals
(1) Identity of the (I suspect) original Owner Protection Manual Selling Dealer Code No. DOES NOT have a strike-through "RP"; and,
(2) I suspect the Owner Protection Manual identified on the front cover by "501F 442" might be the original Owner Protection Manual which houses the "RP" P-O-P.
(3) The Owner Protection Manual identified with the strike-through Selling Dealer Code No. is most likely not the original Owner Protection Manual, it was issued after modifications to the vehicle and most likely contains the P-O-P identified w/ the "HP".
I might suggest the P-O-P identified by "RP" is the original P-O-P?
EDIT: Correction noted above. Original .... DOES NOT have a strike-through (apparently). I "suspect" when the new P-O-P was made for this car, a new Owner Protection Manual was issued, the Selling Dealer Code No. was listed (written down as the original Selling Dealer Code No.) and someone created a strike-through in an attempt to demonstrate the original Selling Dealer Code No. is no longer valid (or, WAS valid) since a change was made to the vehicle.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; January 18th, 2022 at 06:12 PM.
I guess I need to figure out the dealer code. Car was originally sold at Bradt Oldsmobile here in Pittsburgh and still wears the emblem affixed at dealer on trunk.
I guess I need to figure out the dealer code. Car was originally sold at Bradt Oldsmobile here in Pittsburgh and still wears the emblem affixed at dealer on trunk.
Does the Owner Protection Manual which demonstrates a strike-through in the Selling Dealer Code No. contain the P-O-P plate identified by the "HP" (P7E09)?
I suspect the original Owner Protection Manual demonstrates on the front cover the hand written "501F 442" and this Owner Protection Manual contains a P-O-P identified by the "RP" (P7E09)?
Does the Owner Protection Manual which demonstrates a strike-through in the Selling Dealer Code No. contain the P-O-P plate identified by the "HP" (P7E09)?
I suspect the original Owner Protection Manual demonstrates on the front cover the hand written "501F 442" and this Owner Protection Manual contains a P-O-P identified by the "RP" (P7E09)?
From what I gather the Brant family was large and had several automotive ventures, one of which sold Oldsmobile along with other auto manufacturers over the years in several various locations. There exists a modest history on the Internet replete with newspaper ads, etc.
So this is the "H", it's the book with the writing on the front. Notice that the 6 month Validation Report is torn out. The second book with the "R" still has the printed 6 month tag
Thanks. So the book w/ "501F 442" on front cover contains the strike-through Selling Dealer Code No. and this same book contains the "H". This would appear to NOT represent the original Owner Protection Manual but instead a second Owner Protection Manual. The original vehicle is identified by "R" (P-O-P) and the modified vehicle identified by "H" (P-O-P).
January 16th, 2022, 08:35 AM
