WoofWagon

Looking very seriously at swapping in a 200R4 to get the overdrive so I can run 3.90s in the rear.

My question is the cross member that the 200R4 is going to need. I currently have a TH350 in there, will the current cross member mount up to the 200R4 or will I have to bolt a new cross member into the frame?

Also, does someone make a kit for the GM A-bodies to mount this transmission?

joe_padavano

This is a very easy swap and no "kit" is required, just a properly built trans (a stock 200-4R won't last very long). The 200-4R is the same overall length as the TH350, so your current driveshaft works. You do need to slide the crossmember back to the TH400 position, which is pre-drilled on your frame. Use the throttle valve cable and carb bracket from a 1980s 307 car. Your shift linkage bolts up, but obviously the positions of the gears will be wrong. There is no alternative with the column shift linkage unless you get a custom column or fabricate something using the shift gate from a later model GM column.

The big complication in this swap is the e-brake cables. Since the A-body hangs the e-brake cables off the trans crossmember, moving the crossmember changes the necessary cable lengths. You'll need to get the front and intermediate cables for your year VC with a TH400. These are still available from auto parts stores (NAPA and RockAuto list them). The front cable should be the same for any 68-72 A-body with a TH400, but the intermediate cable is unique to the VC due to the longer wheelbase.

WoofWagon

Joe,

Thanks for all that great information. I was concerned that I'd have to do some frame surgery. One of the great advantages of the GM cars is the interchangeability of parts. I have a local shop who can build up a 200R4 that can handle the torque of this monster I've got in this wagon.

I'll start researching the cables I need based on your information.

Thanks again for the advice, I plan on following it carefully.

WoofWagon

One more question though, with the gear selector: with it only having 3 forward gear positions, is it going to prevent me from shifting down manually to first, i.e. stopping at 2nd gear.

I would think that "D" would then be the overdrive position and "2" would then be Drive, right?

jensenracing77

Joe, i just took the transmission out of a 70 Vista. it looks like a very long tail shaft. are you sure they are the same length? i know the regular TH350 was the same length but not sure about the vista?

alek72us

Should still work, the 200r4 and the t350 are the same length.

when i had my column shift it would still let me put it in first but the red needle would be on the right hand side pointing at nothing.

alek72us

Oh sorry u said tail shaft. i don't know on the one.

oldcutlass

If you shorten the E-brake hook to approx 1", you will not have to buy cables! Just adjust it up!

jensenracing77

i went out and looked. the one out of the Vista is 6 inches longer at the tail shaft than the regular TH350 so i think you will have to have a longer drive shaft by 6 inches.

oldspackrat

I had to have my drive shaft lengthened to do this swap on mine.

oldcutlass

Had to repost, the T350 and the 200r4 are a direct swap except having to move the Xmember back. It mounts in the T400 position as stated above!

jensenracing77

normally that would be right but the Vista has a longer tail shaft from what i have in the 70 Vista i parted out. it is the same transmission as the TH350 but the tail shaft is 6 inches longer.

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WoofWagon

So I'd have to have the drive shaft lengthened?

oldcutlass

Hmmmmm??? Thats new to me! So the shorter one is going in, longer drive shaft!

goatwgn

There is some information on you tube from someone called 'Spiked punk" that has done this swap in a nice Vista Cruiser. I installed one in my '66 Tempest wagon 4 years ago and love it. Just make sure a good builder does the build for you. Hydraulics are very imprtant on these units.http://youtu.be/loYjdg7DGPA

Rickman48

As is TVS cable adjustment - a couple clicks off can torch the trans!

68conv455

The 2004R has a lower 1st gear than the TH350. A 455 with a 3.90 will pretty much give you a useless 1st. gear unless you like tire smoke. If you're 455 is worth anything, I'd consider a rear axle gear ratio in the mid three's.

Rickman48

The two transmissions have VERY CLOSE first gears! [2:48?]
It's the 700r4 that has a 3:08 first!

455man

TH350 1st is 2.52
2004R 1st is 2.74
TH400 1st is 2.48
I'm planning on running a 3.73 rear with the 200 4R when I install it.

68conv455

Woofwagon is looking to put a 3.90 rear with the 2004r. That will feel the same as a 4.24 rear after a TH350. Just math. I think this is too high for a 455.
I have a stock compression '71 455 with a 2004r and a 3.55 rear. A 3.73 is the deepest I would recommend. Just my 2cents.

Vistabrat72

Thanks so much for the kudos on the Spikedpunk stuff on You Tube, that is me actually, I'm glad the clips on the 200-R4 are helping folks out. The drive shaft does have to be changed due to the differences in length, yokes are the same as a THM350, the selector lever indicator drops almost out of sight in 'low' on a column shift, you may have to shim the selector rod pivot on the frame as the 200-R4 is slightly narrower at that point. The other things have been well mentioned by the rest of the forum. The transmission is a total delight on the car. Howie

WoofWagon

68conv455, that is a good point. I don't want the engine bouncing off the rev limiter pulling 1st and then shifting. Not good on u-joints.

J-(Chicago)

A 700r4 or 4l60E would be an easier swap in place of the long shaft th350.

The driveshaft length can remain the same then.
The trans mount will be a little bit off however, so you may have to slide the crossmember back about an inch if I remember right.

I did the reverse of that swap in my 95 chevy work van. The 4l60e blew up, and I threw a th350 long tail in it from a 75 impala derby car that I had.
I just drilled and tapped a 1/4" piece of plate steel for the mount to move forward about an inch.

The 1995 was a bastard year, so the only thing that would replace the 95 trans was another 95. With 230k on the van, it wasn't worth searching for an exact replacement.

Ed Carpenter

Will the 200R4 take the same speedo driven gear and if so, will a rear end gearing change use similar driven gear colors/teeth?

Vistabrat72

Ed, the speedometer cable, previously on the Turbo-400 in my wagon screwed right onto the unit of the 200-R4. Inside, however, it is a different thing: If the transmission being swapped into the car was previuosly mated to a car with the same final drive ratio as your car, then all will be find. If not, two options: There are charts on line that give proper drive and driven speedometer gears to use in the 200-R4. The drive gear works off the governor FYI. Or, you can use an adapter to increase/decrease the speedometer cable speed to properly match the original setup's RPM. If you need links, I can dig them up. Regards, Howie

goatwgn

You also won't be able to use the gears out of a TH400 or 350. The gears are physically different in size. The drive gear on the 2004r is on the governor in the oil pan. Slides onto the output shaft on an St300, Th350, or Th400. The driven gear is smaller in diameter than the 300/350/400 units. You will be able to screw your cable right onto the adapter on the case. In my case i told my builder what gear and size tires I were running and he installed the correst gears in the unit. FYI-Jakes performance outside Of Dallas/ Fort worth did mine. Very good (and knowledgeable) builder. I sent it out to him (I live in Chesapeake Va.) Arrived free of leaks or other weird incidents. Nice shift program as well. Not to harsh but a little firm.

pcard

Check these guys out for your speedo questions. They are really helpful.
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/sp...____va.htm#400

therobski

WOOFWAGON, check out this site. This is where I bought my column shift kit and shift indicator lense for my 64 F-85 pro touring build. The lens was originally for a 68-74 Nova, fit perfect. http://www.shiftworks.com/kugel.htm
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tcolt

Howie. I have been watching all your nice Youtube videos since I'm currently also building up my own 2004R to go into my Vista Cruiser. Today, I mocked up the empty casing and only then I realized that the old TH375 (I think?) I had in there was quite a bit longer. My question to you or Joe, Eric(s) or anyone who knows specifically: Is the 6 inch lengthening of the drive shaft an exact number? I just measured the "gap" with the 2004R in my Vista and it looks like 6 to 6.25 inches should be pretty close... Also, should the people who do the work use a completely new drive shaft tube or do they simply weld 6 inches to my existing ds and then weld it to the u-joint? Also, I heard that the ATF cooler lines have to be switched around for the new transmission? I'm guessing this is necessary because the fluid needs to have a certain direction of flow coming out of the transmission and into the cooler? If not, it would be easier for me to simply connect the lines as they line up now?....

I just found a pretty nice second 2004R at my local yard and I may just install it as is to figure it all out before I put in my rebuilt one.

Finally, did you use a higher stall torque converter on your Vista Cruiser, which, like mine (I believe), didn't have any engine work done?

Thanks, Tom

tcolt

Also. I've read that the transmission cooler lines need to be crossed over when you install a 2004R into a TH350 and 400 transmissions. Does the transmission fluid care that much in which direction it travels through the radiator, to get cooled? Is there a good reason why it would be a mistake not to hook up the lines the easier way, i.e. how they line up as the 2004R sits in my VC? I don't want re-invent the wheel or take chances with my rebuilt transmission, but I'd like to keep things clean and simple of there is no good reason...

Thanks, Tom


P.S. I'm pretty sure this is a silly question, but is there any chance that the 1985 Delta 88 that I pulled the 2004R from has a 6 inch longer drive shaft than my Vista Cruiser, so I can use it, instead of having mine re-welded. Or can anybody tell me how long the drive shaft in a 1985 Delta 88 is, before I head all the way back to the wrecking yard to check?

Vistabrat72

Vistabrat72

hi Tom I do have a delta 88 drive shaft in my basement I can measure it a little later on but I will tell you right away it is too short for our Vista cruisers even with using an extended nose yolk it would only leave an inch and a half or two in the transmission and the universal joint yoke way too far back which would be dangerous in my opinion and cause a lot of vibrations. ask me how I know I used this combination just to get my Vista Cruiser from my garage to my friends garage where they had had a new drive shaft made. this was from a long long one I found in beautiful condition that they shortened to fit my car. in hindsight I should have had the Auto Club just flatbed the car for me to the garage. So the upshot is that you know the Delta 88 shaft will not work. Regards Howie.

tcolt

Hi Howie.

Thanks for the quick help. At least now I won't go out to pick up that drive shaft for their 40% off President's day sale. I just called a drive shaft place and they want $375 for an all new drive shaft. I guess it doesn't make sense to reuse any of the old shaft? Is that how you had it done?

tcolt

Just so everyone else knows what Howie came up with. (Thank you!) The Delta 88 drive shaft was 62" center to center.

Does anyone know of an Olds or GM drive shaft that would work in a TH350 and 200 4R, that is 62" or longer center to center? I'd like to keep the cost for the new drive shaft down closer to $100, than $350.

Thanks, Tom