A72CUTLAS

Hey guys, I've seen this Atomic EFI on several of the classic car shows on Velocity channel and wondered if anyone has any experience with it yet? Seems to be an easy bolt-on but wanted to seek the advice of more experienced heads. Looking forward to you guys thoughts. Here is the link to their website.

http://www.atomicefi.com/home.aspx

BTW I have a stock 350 rocket in a '72 Cutty

jensenracing77

I am sure cutlassefi will see your post but I think he is the most experienced here with EFI. If he don't show up I would send him a PM. He will tell you the ups and downs of most any efi system. You can do a search on efi and you should find some good info.

captjim

The following is just my humble opinion;
That looks like basically an "electronic carburetor". I see no real benefits, other than perhaps cold starts, over a well tuned carb. EFI is great, especially port fuel, but it requires the entire system, O2, coolant, MAP, etc and it works in conjunction with the timing curve. I'm not saying it won't work or run good, I just don't see the benefits for the cost. $400 will get you a very nice Q-jet or Holley

firefrost gold

cap im sure if you dive into the instructions he will have to add a electric inline fuel pump or sump with maybe a return maybe not and then a regulator . But you dont have to weld bungs on .

captjim

I don't really understand this post? Of course you need a constant fuel pressure (electric pump) and not sure how you mount the O2 sensor without the bungs??

cutlassefi

O.K. I'm sure you all have been waiting with baited breath for my answer.

Facts;

Yes Jim is right, the throttle body stuff is essentially an electronic carburetor. It has advantages, i.e. cold starts, consistent running quality etc. but they're also susceptible to the same inherent issues as a carb if mounted on the same intake, fuel puddling, uneven distribution etc.

MSD has some spark control, comes with a bunch of flexible fuel line, pump, regulator etc. However what they don't tell you is that if anything goes wrong with the MAP, TPS, or IAT sensors, or the injectors you have to send the whole unit back to them. It's a sealed unit and if you try to tamper with it it voids the warranty.

FAST EZ, very simple system, no spark control at all. And if this system was so good why did they feel the need to have to introduce the 2.0? Hmmm.....

Holley Terminator - probably one of the better TBI systems, but it's still a TBI.

Hope this helps.

Killian_Mörder

Had I known that Quadrajet prices would skyrocket, I would have bought all the $25 Quadrajets I could unbolt from every junkyard, back then

jensenracing77

You can still get them for $25 or less all you want but they all need rebuilt and reconditioned. To do it right, many time you will have $400 or more in them.

ostie13

I put a FAST EZ EFI on my Toronado.Fast was one of the first system out there.So far I love it.The car starts right up.I haven't been able to get it out on the road because I am having brake issues.Hopefully I will get that resolved today and I can get it out on the road so the ECU can learn.Its very simple to program and it has a hand held unit to make adjustments for fine tuning. It has an O2 sensor so it will need to connected to the exhaust.

garys 68

I think you should define why you want efi. If it's to match the performance and mileage of new cars, you wont even be close.
As is pointed out in new cars it's fuel injection, spark control, head and cam design, transmission and gearing....pretty much the whole car that works together.

olds 307 and 403

I see you need a $400 distributor to control the timing on the Fast 2.0, surprised their is one for Olds. The Holley terminator does look much improved over their old set up. It says small cap HEI to control timing, assuming one could adapt the CCC distributor off a 307 also? Pretty much the same inside, are they not?

A72CUTLAS

Thanks for all the information, I've seen this system advert'd so much I figured I'd check into it some more, mainly looking for a little more mpg's and easy start. What I have now is a 350R with a QJet carb, and the only complaint I have is the constant tuning and hard to statr due to the fact that I don't drive it very often.

I did find a HOT ROD article from a few years ago that installed it on a '65 Malibu SS small block(350?). They tuned the Rochester carb and after 100 miles the swapped the EFI system on. They ended up getting more than 5mpg's more. Heres the link:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...em_conversion/

Wondering if the system has gotten better over the years?

Found a more recent article in HOT ROD, this time testing the Holley Avenger efi system.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...s_avenger_efi/

M-14

I know that GM efi systems have a program in their ECMs that allows for lean running when there's a lot of manifold vacuum & small throttle opening. They also run leaner at hotter temps.
I had an S10 truck that I kept a close eye on mpgs, a 180 stat got me about 22mpg, a 195 got me 25, & a 210 stat got me nearly 27. In the winter the spread would be even worst because the 180 stat wouldn't get over that rating in the cold air.

captjim

"Constant tuning" and "Quardajet" don't usually go together.

Also, even if your mileage improves, since you stated that you don't drive it much, will you save enough fuel to justify the expense?

garys 68

5mpg is a bit optimistic IMHO. Don't believe everything you read.
From the article:
"The EZ-EFI system replaced the restored Rochester square-bore"
What's a Rochester square bore?

Killian_Mörder

By now, true. Back then, guys would pitch perfectly good ones into the scrap bins, to make way for a Holley double-pumper

ostie13

If you want fast starts you will get that.Mine starts instantly.

olds 307 and 403

That would be the 4G series square bore, GM's carb before the Qjet. So over a Qjet they would been lucky to see a couple of mpg's. Like Jim said most of drive a few miles a year, 2.5 grand for 2.5 mpg? Now if the cars starts and drives much better in all weather, now it is a worthwhile swap. These cars are supposed to be our "fun" cars, not a PIA. Qjets when properly built and tuned last a long time.

garys 68

Never rebuilt one of those. I noticed they mention a holley 750 too.
Btw, on the 4G, do they use the on/off power valve like a holley (not the best for mileage), or the tapered rods like qjets/carters?

A72CUTLAS

Thats good, you can install remote start. That would be worth the price of admission to me, anyway. I bought my Qjet from a vendor on here, and when I first installed it, I drove it daily with no problems. But when my financial situation went south I could no longer afford the gas. So then I only drove it one weekend a month, and after awhile I had to tweak it because it began to run rich. Every month I have to adjust the mix and idle for it to run properly.

So, does the HOTROD mag massage the #'s that they use when doing a product review? I don't know, but if I can increase the drive-ability of my Cutlass it may be enough for me. I wasn't my intention to ruffle feathers of the Qjet foks, just looking for anyone who thought like me.

Mr Nick

I installed the FAST EZ-EFI on mine this spring, it's been great. My only wish was that it had true "real time" timing control, but I already had an MSD programmable box and am using a map sensor with it, so it runs d@mn well.

My main concern was overall price, otherwise I would have gone with Accel DFI or Holley Terminator in order to have expandality for the future. But the EZ-EFI (version 1) is by no means holding me back now.

jag1886

This post seems pretty negative about these EFI units. I thought the overall drivability would be much nicer with one of these units. I was thinking about getting one of these after I sell my last Harley. Maybe I'd better do some more research.

442scotty

I put a Holley Terminator on the 455 in my 65. I love it and plan to add the Olds computer controlled distributor next summer as well as knock sensors. Didn't gain any MPG but I gained a lot more power even though I had my edelbrock carb dialed in nicely. It is expensive but I wanted to try it out.

Mr Nick

No negativity from me. The three people in this thread that have the self learning Throttle Body EFI units (myself, ostie13 & 442scotty) all like them. Mark can put together a nice Accel package as well, a little more pricey but quite a few more features.

Many of the self learn units can also be upgraded to Multi-Port injection too.

Killian_Mörder

That has less to do with luck and more to do with the amount of lead in one's foot. My Q-jet ran comparably economical, until I put the secondaries to work which was something I couldn't help do

Fun71

All I can say to that is I don't understand why you would need to adjust the carburetor mixture or idle on a regular basis. I typically park mine for 3-4 months during the hottest part of summer and it starts right up and runs. I haven't adjusted the mixture screws for as long as I can remember, and I mess with the idle only when I "tune" for the annual emissions test (decrease initial timing so increase idle speed). I just can't see how a carb could "go out of tune" like that.

455man

I'm thinking that the OP needs a tune up instead of looking at EFI. You should not need to readjust the A/F mixture constantly. A set of headers and free flowing exhaust will gain some mpg's. Lightening the weight of the car helps.

captjim

To me it isn't negative or which is "better". The question is, "is it a cost-effective upgrade"? For the miles he drives and cost, it does not seem like it to me. EFI is great, it just isn't cheap and many of the kits offer no performance gains. A quality carb can be purchased new for $400 and installed in a few minutes, if the carb truly is the problem. Like Mark, I, and others stated, cold starting and cold driveability are benefits. But, I live in FL!! LOL

garys 68

I gotta agree. Too many people think adding EFI on an old, tired motor (or even refreshed one) will get them the kind of performance and mileage of a new LSx end up disappointed. Most would be impressed by a good distributor recurve, tuneup and carb rebuild. Actually Qjets were designed not to be tuned. And the screw adjustments only tune the idle circuit.
When I looked at options, $2k for efi wasn't that much less than an iron block LSx motor with all the new technology....for a daily driver anyway. I'm running an 05 5.3 L59 in my 72.

jag1886

I'm not looking at it as a performance upgrade but a drivability upgrade. I would think it would improve cold and hot driving smoothness and I would think it would help with elevation changes. It's hotter than hell hear in Boise and depending on which way you go out of town some of the passes are 6000-7000 ft to get out of this valley.

cutlassefi

Here let me help you with that, don't assume.

http://efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8128

Even the FAST XFI multiport doesn't have what it should, 2 map sensors so you don't have to cycle the key on and off to reset it for altitude changes. (Turbo Nova is an instructor at EFI University and a FAST dealer. He's also on their payroll for the school, which is sponsored by FAST....hmmmm.). He mentions leaving the correction limits high so that the system can correct for altitude changes before you have a chance to reset it. Elsewhere he recommends keeping correction limits tighter to help drivability in constant altitude conditions...... hmmmmm).

My point? The better systems (Accel, Holley) give you full tuneability, with spark control, and can compensate for just about anything.

Again don't assume.

Killian_Mörder

The only possibility would be worn out throttle body bushings. Otherwise, he's got a vaccuum leak somewhere or the intake valves are on their way out

cutlassefi

What? If the valves are "on their way out" it'll cause a whole lot more than a vacuum leak.

A72CUTLAS

This is my first old skool car and I'm learning as I go, so maybe I haven't explained it right. When I first bought this car it had the factory 2bll. After asking here, I bought a restored 4bll from a member. As a daily driver it was all good, but it got too expensive for that so I parked it. After sitting for a month or two at a time, I would get a strong gas smell as I drove not to mention the 15-20 pats to get it started. I was told by my neighbor that that meant it was running rich. He showed me how to adjust the screws to even it out. Now if that's not "tuning it" I do apologize.

The only reason I posted to begin with was to A) see if anyone had installed this on their car and B) to see what their experience had been, whether they would do it again. And from what I gather the 3 that have it like it. And if I could get 2-3mpg's extra, I could maybe go back to full-time Detroit iron.

Rocket Richard

I think you need to do the math for your situation. At an extra 2-3 mpg it will probably take years to break even with the cost of going efi. What kind of milage does your daily driver get in a year?

You could also switch back to the 2bbl if it will help you save on gas, right?

I'm thinking like garys 68. If I really wanted to have an engine that behaved more like a modern one, at the price of those efi kits, I'd want to consider an LSx swap. Not to say that I wouldn't like getting an efi kit and seeing what it can do, but that would be for kicks more than economics.

Mr Nick

As one of the few guys here that has EFI on their Olds engine, my honest opinion is to NOT get EFI if your primary reason is to save money based on improved fuel mileage.

Some optimistic math... If you drive 10,000 miles per year, and compare 12mpg to 15mpg, at $3.50 per gallon. You will save $583 per year. So it will take you 4 years to break even on an EFI system that costs around $2,000.

If you drive 5,000 miles per year, and get 2mpg better instead of 3, you will save $180 per year and it will take over 10 years to break even.

--------------

15-20 pats to get it started after sitting for a while. Do you mean depress the gas pedal 15-20 times before it will start? A few is normal, 20 is excessive.

Also, a strong gas smell while driving could mean it's running rich, but could also be other things. (timing, fuel leak) There are NO screws on a Q-Jet you can turn that will adjust the fuel mixture at cruise speeds. The two screws on the front baseplate only adjust the idle fuel mix. So unless you take the top of the carb off, or change the secondary needle/seat, you aren't doing anything that will fix the strong fuel smell while driving.

Alex72cutty

I'm having a 383 Stroker build and I'm adding the atomic efi system on my car.. I also have a friend that has the same system on his car and on road trips he gets 19-23mpg... I'm not sure what he gets in the city. I've driven his car and witness how the system learns your driving habits..

455man

I'm assuming that the pats are tapping the gas pedal. It sounds normal to me if the car has been sitting for a few months. With electronic fuel injection you have a electric fuel pump that starts pumping gas when you turn the key to ON. With these old cars it's a mechanical pump that starts pumping gas when the motor turns over. If it's dried up in the carb and the fuel lines you might be pumping gas from the tank to the carb. It could take a while to get there. Your first 14 pats are probably doing nothing. The final pat squirts fuel because the gas finally reached the carb.

Mr Nick

Are the well plugs epoxied?

cutlassefi

You're exactly right.
I did mine because, after driving my '72, my wife would tell me I smelled like "Car".

The only way to make old Detroit iron remotely efficient is thru EFI. I can run mine lean enough to run cats without surging etc., so I added cats to the exhaust system years ago.
Now I have nostalgic looks and a much cleaner running car. Imo the best of both worlds, and it has the original motor in it. Icing on the cake.