Alright, rebuilt 72 350.

- HEI, hooked up to full 12 volt via a wire. I see a spark when holding the plug against the head. Vacuum advance it plugged into the ported vac on the carb.
- Carb is a 71 q-jet, it ran fine when it came off the car two months ago. All vacuum ports are either plugged or connected. Hot air tubes aren't connected due to crossover plugging.
- Timing is installed at about 14. Verified with timing mark and TDC that it's the compression phase and not the exhaust phase that #1 fires on.
- Only wires are a big hot going from + to the big terminal on the starter, a small wire going from constant + to the BAT terminal on the HEI, and a jumper lead going to the block.

In my mind, I have spark and fuel, and compression can't cause this kind of failure, can it? I'm at a loss.

Royal pain in the ***, this is. Pardon my French.

 

Engines need air, fuel, spark. You said you verified spark and if it's cranking you generally have air, so it leads me to believe it may be lack of fuel. Try pouring a small amount of fuel into the carb.

 

If the carburetor's got gas going through it (accel pump sprays gas, etc.), you've got compression on most cylinders, and you've got a hot spark (not a weak orange spark), it should run.

If you have all of those things and it doesn't run, then the problem is probably spark timing, which could be wrong wires to plugs or 180° out of phase (even though you think it's not).
These things are usually something that looked right, but actually wasn't, but was easy to overlook because of that.

I'd spray some ether in the carb to rule out fuel as the problem, then take a deep breath and recheck the cap, rotor, and wires from scratch.

You'll get it.

- Eric

edit: OldCutlass, you were too fast for me!

 

It's funny cause it happens all the time among members. You carefully type out an answer, hit post and... someone else has posted within seconds.

Seff, it's always a simple problem so don't over think it.

 

Thanks for replying, guys, I'm getting gray hairs over here.

I already tried the 180 degree trick, checked firing order, wires, etc. Compression test showed 110 PSI to 135 PSI, which is definitely compression of sorts (the difference doesn't worry me too much, some of the cylinders had oil drip down from priming the oil without valve covers on).

I can tell you, however, that the spark looks very weak. Yellow, in daylight. I tried R45S plugs and R46SZ plugs (normal points and HEI plugs) and both had weak spark with the HEI dist. This was attempted remedied by boosting the battery with another running car, but still nothing. Could the wire running from the battery to the dist be too thin? It's thinner than on my car.

 

The wire to the HEI should be 12ga, if I recall, definitely not "thin," but this should not matter when just starting - it would become a problem after a period of time on the highway, with higher HEI current demand, which would heat up the wire.

If you have a yellow spark, then that's your problem.
You probably have a bad HEI module, or maybe a bad pickup.

If you've got another HEI around you can pull the module from, I'd try that first.

You could also swap in a points distributor if you've got one around.

I'm sure you can't just stop by the auto parts store for a module (or to have yours tested, which is the best way) "over there" like we can over here.

- Eric

 

I tried with my points dist, but no spark at all with that. No other HEI, but it ran a day ago, quite excellently, on the '71 engine. I'll try with a nice thick wire before I worry about something else. Plan B is to swap the points back in and find out that the problem with THAT is.

EDIT: Is there any way to measure my aftermarket points coil to see which wire goes where? All it has is "1" and "15", and then the big plug that goes to the top of the points dist.

 

Seff, this is a question you should be able to answer better on your side of the pond than we can on our side.

1 and 15 are DIN-standard circuit number markings, as seen here.

1: Ignition coil, ignition distributor, low voltage.

15: Switched + downstream of battery (output of ignition/driving switch).

In other words, 15 is the Ignition circuit (+ on the coil), and 1 is the distributor wire (- on the coil).

You've got a European coil there, not an American coil.
Wonder whether is smokes Gauloises and wears a beret...

- Eric

 

It scoffs at all the imperial measurements, and goes on and on about needlessly fine tolerances and so forth.

Thanks for the help, that's one variable taken care of. :P

 

Put on points, verified ignition timing. Made sure the wires were on right. Checked for spark, it's blue (but not very big). Poured gas into the carb, verified that it shoots when the accel is depressed.

Cranked. Nothing. Turned the dist to test various timings. Nothing. Pumped the accelerator. Nothing. All I'm getting is a bit of fire out the ends of the manifolds when 8 and 7 ignite. Maybe my cam is timed wrong? I shouldn't be getting fire in my manifolds, should I?

 

Sounds like an ignition timing question to me - like (once again, sorry) wrong order or 180° out.

You're using points-type wires, not the HEI wires, right?

- Eric

 

Yup, points wires. Check the plug gaps, maybe?

I'll re-check the firing order and re-check the timing. We agree that the timing mark on the balancer (which hasn't slipped, I checked the little etching on the front of the balancer) at 0 on the little indicator plate means I'm at TDC on #1, and thus that my ignition should have #1 fire about 8 degrees prior to this, yes? That's what I've been doing so far.

The cam was installed dot to dot, for the record.

 

Yes that means it's on TDC, but not necessarily on the firing stroke. Remember that it's every other time around that the TDC is on it's firing stroke, not every time. Take out #1 plug, have somebody bump the starter and when you feel the whoosh of the compression at the time the mark comes around to TDC, then the rotor should be pointing to the #1 cylinder.

 

Couldn't I just set the timing in either setting, then 180 the dist by switching 1 and 6, 8 and 5 etc. (the wires across from each other on the cap)? That's how I 180'd the dist last time - but of course, that didn't work. :P

 

Yes, in theory, that would work.

- Eric

 

Worth a try, tomorrow. It's quarter to one. >.>

 

Do you have the Block grounded back to the battery negative?

 

Yup, a good solid ground too. Otherwise I'd have trouble even cranking, I'd say.

 

Have you turned the dist. as you are starting it. Usually i always have some help me turn the dist a bit untill it starts to want to run we bump it once more then let her run. A quick to find out where your timing really is ., is put it on 0 at tdc on the compression stroke pull your cap off and see where the dist. rotor is. if you are 180 off your pointer will be on the oposite side of where it should be.

 

Got it, I'll try that tomorrow.

 

Just remember it's just minor bumps you will turn the dist. adv. or ret. etc. . I'll try to get a pic of where i have my number one on my engine. usually this is my "sweet" spot" usually my new engines fire up with in a few cranks in the location.

 

And this means what exactly? What does it matter what tower YOUR number 1 is located on? That doesn't mean his is the same and all that means nothing.

Do what 1970 W30 recommended to start with. That'll give you a good reference point.

 

Mark seriously f*** off. Im trying to help the guy have some real world experience by sharing where i put my number one on the dist. where i point it towards. It works for me so it might work for him wtf if your problem. somehow mark my stuff runs great.
#1 is before the batt terminal i mark it on the base. The mark on the intake manifold was when i had it at 16 degrees i held it back to 14 for the street., but you can get an idea of where the number one points etc etc. This location also leaves you enough space to further advance timing with out the canister hitting the fire wall., granted it is an hei and you can put number 1 anywhere but for me this location has worked over and over and over and over again ., this is just how i do it and it works for me it might work for you but i guess mark has a hard on for giving me crap. So setting up the number one towards that bolt on the intake is very very close when you are at tdc. This is how it works for me and i have the video of it running to prove it if anyone cares to question it.

 

O.K like I said, what does it matter where yours is? Are you saying that's his problem? That, if he puts it where yours is it'll magically start and run just fine? Bullshyt.

Well it won't dude. What the hell does it matter where yours is. That has nothing to do with it. You can make any tower you want #1 and if all else is correct it'll be just fine. As usual misleading info.

And be careful about the name calling. Let's let everyone know that you have pm'd me more than once asking for advice. Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Thank you.

 

Yes mark i have pm'd you for advice why should i deny it nor will i ever. Lately you have become a real. well lets just let everyone fill in that blank. any who here are a few videos all were started like i said. the truth is in the proof. I onl;y have one way i do this and it has worked for me over the years.

https://www.facebook.com/coppercutla...type=3&theater

 

I hope this confirms my it has worked on many engines. Im sorry mark sometimes a picture is worth a million words i was just trying to share my experience with successful initial start up's . Im also sorry seff for this whole back and forth with mark but if anyone has noticed he has a thing for kind of giving me crap and i refuse to back down becasue i know my opinions are diffrent from some othesr and im just sharing my personal opinion and experience. As the saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat. Well i just shared how i have done my initial start up's from day one.

 

I appreciate your efforts to help, and you've said nothing that's directly wrong - especially when it's presented as your own experiences instead of universal truths. Mark is also right - I've never seen him wrong - but I assume he's worried that I'll be misinformed. I'm pretty sure I figured it out, though, and I'll give it one last shot before I put my starter back on the car. 180ing the dist and going from there.

 

First make sure you are 180 off. Put it at tdc and pull the cap off. being a tooth off will also prevent it from starting sometimes . Good luck.

 

Take a time out and do this first. Once you find #1 wire it from there. If it back fires out of the carb and does all kinds of weird things it will be 180 out. At this point pull the distributor and rotate the rotor 180 deg's and it will be right.

There is no such thing as 1 tooth off effecting whether it can be timed as rotating the distributor corrects a timing error. Being 1 tooth off only effects the position of the housing in the block and whether rotating the distributor will interfere with the firewall or manifold preventing you from getting it timed.

There are 2 things you need to do, first, look down into your carb and operate the throttle to WOT, make sure you have 2 solid streams of fuel squirting. Second, connect a 12 or 14ga wire directly from your battery + to the HEI +. Crank the engine and as copper said you may have to rotate the distributor to get it to fire. If it does not fire then check your spark again. If it does start you will need to disconnect the jumper you installed to turn it off.

 

Also, if you have an extra rotor, you can file or cut off the locating pins or tab (depending on ditributir type) and just install the rotor backwards to see if it was 180° out.
If it runs great, then reinstall the distributor with the rotor facing the right way, and install a non-modified rotor (unless you're brave and confident that you'll remember what you did later on, and not accidentally install the rotor backwards again ).

- Eric

 

Look, sorry, but Mark is absolutely correct. You can install a distributor with the rotor pointing anywhere, and so long as the #1 plug wire is in a hole that lines up with the rotor at the right time, the engine will run. The fact that a given motor has the #1 plug wire in the third hole from the left means nothing to a different motor where the distributor may or may not be clocked differently.

Seriously, this isn't really that complex. I just installed an HEI in a 71 Cutlass 350 with no helper. I removed the #1 plug, stuffed a piece of paper towel in the hole, and stood outside the car and bumped the starter until I saw that the paper towel got blown out. That confirmed I was close enough to TDC on #1 to locate the plug wire on the cap, and went from there. Car fired on the first try. Note that you CAN use a timing light while you are just cranking the engine to see if the timing is way off or not.

 

I agree. Alsi never said mark was wrong. I was just posting up a pic that could work as a guidline for seff. I know I go with what has worked for me so I'm sharing how I set mine up. For me for some reason the whole one tooth off if didn't install it right in my configuration I would not have room for enough advance , etc. I'm not saying he should do it my way just sharing how I do it and it works everytime. It is very easy to do. Specially with an hei.

 

I hear all of you on the ease of installing a distributor - managed it on the engine in the car on the first try, got the timing right as well.

I tried the points both with #1 and #6 (180'd) at the TDC mark (8 advance), no change. Did have backfire in one of the settings, fire coming out of the carb.

The carb does have two streams of fuel spraying, and it ran well on the other engine.

I then gave up and put the starter back on the running engine, before I took off the valve cover and tried to get a rough degree of the cam. I figured that if it wasn't firing at TDC or 180 off TDC, but had spark, fuel and compression, then something is majorly malfunctioning.

What I noticed is that the intake valve tops at 12 BTDC on the exhaust stroke. Somehow that seems odd to me.

 

You don't happen to have a cam card with 0.050" lift measurements, do you?
That would allow you to get an irrefutable timing measurement.
I'm no cam expert, but I agree that that seems way retarded.
I don't want to say its time to pull your timing cover, but...
Mark is watching this thread, so I'm sure he'll have something meaningful to contribute.

- Eric

 

I have the card that came with the cam:

It had other info inside, I think. This is the model. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-510011-12/

 

"What I noticed is that the intake valve tops at 12 BTDC on the exhaust stroke. Somehow that seems odd to me."

Huh?
Intake valve starts to open at 12 BTDC at end of exhaust? That would be about right. Maybe a bit late. Maybe even 1 cam sprocket tooth late which is oh 10 cam degrees = 20 crank degrees. I have seen engines RUN with a jumped chain though. Not "fail to start".

 

When I say 'tops', I mean that beyond 12 BTDC the intake valve starts closing again.

 

Seff, I can't help but notice that you have NOT mentioned that you tried my thumb over the #1 hole or Joe's paper towel in #1 hole technique yet. It's simple, effective and gets you the results needed to fire up the engine. Do not make it more complicated then it needs to be. I am not a fan of just helter-skelter moving plug wires around hoping for the right results. 40+ years of experience has tought me not to make mountains out of molehills.... just my 2 cents worth.....

 

I understand the sentiment, but if I set the timing right, test, and then move it 180 degrees if it doesn't work, you can't really argue that I've been at TDC of both the exhaust and compression strokes. Unless I've overlooked something?

 

I don't see any 0.050" checking numbers there (maybe the other half of the card), but it sure looks like the intake peak should be around 110° ATDC (80° BBDC), and not where it is.

Now, 110°ATDC is darned close to being the mirror image of the 12° BTDC that you observed, which, if I'm not mistaken, would point to you being 180° out in your measurements, so I'd want to be absolutely sure of your exhaust and power strokes.

- Eric