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Looking for some advice here. I have a 67 Vista Cruiser with a 330. Engine has about 85K on it. It runs ok but I think I need to do something to it. Or better put, the engine is just not as dependable as I'd like. So that is the goal here, I want this car to be as dependable as I can get so I can take vacation trips without worrying or have the wife take it out knowing she will be ok. So here is the question, do I rebuild the 330 motor or just get a replacement 350? Or, get a short block 350 and rebuild heads. I've done some research here on rebuilding 330 or 350's and it seems like it costs quit a bit to do it and 330's can be harder to get correct pistons. Before I got the car repainted someone did a compression test and wrote the numbers on the underside of the hood. I wish I had written them down but I do remember only one cylinder was low, I think around 70.
Here are a couple of options that I have found
These guys offer a 350 long block with an RV cam for about $1,500 Mabbco Motors 350 Long Block
Whatever you do, If you decide on a rebuilt engine and stick with a small block, keep the crank and flexplate from the 330. It will fit in a 350 and is a stronger crank.
Yes I have heard that about the crank. Are the heads on the the 67 anything special?
Thanks,
Jim
The "best" SBO heads are touted as being either 5 or 6. I think you have 4 heads. The 7 or 7A heads are not fare down and have hardened seats on the exhaust for unleaded fuel where the others do not.
Whatever you do, stay away from 8 heads or 3A heads as they are just above junk.
So to me, if you could find a 71 or 72 350 that needs a rebuild and is a good core, I would use your crank and flexplate and go to town on the 350. You could end up with a very easy and reliable 350 hp and really liven up the old wagon.
Looking for some advice here. I have a 67 Vista Cruiser with a 330. Engine has about 85K on it. It runs ok but I think I need to do something to it. Or better put, the engine is just not as dependable as I'd like. So that is the goal here, I want this car to be as dependable as I can get so I can take vacation trips without worrying or have the wife take it out knowing she will be ok. So here is the question, do I rebuild the 330 motor or just get a replacement 350?
There's no other intermediate option here? Either rebuild the engine or throw it away? That's ridiculous! You haven't told us anything here. What do you mean by "not as dependable"? How is it not dependable? Have you done something as simple as a tune-up? 85,000 miles is not that much, and it would hardly call for a rebuild. I owned a '64 Jetstar 88 back in the 1990s. It had the exact same engine as your car. It had well over 100,000 miles on it when I owned it, and the engine ran just fine. These cars and these engines were as dependable as the sunrise back in the day, and there's no reason they can't be as dependable today. Heck, we owned a '67 Vista Cruiser when I was 10 years old. My parents took us on a cross-country trip in it. Rochester, New York to southern California and back. No problems.
Before throwing the engine away, how about trying the simple, less expensive route of diagnosing the problem and properly repairing it.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Olds motors. I've had two VC's in the past a 72 with a 350 and a 69 with a 400. Both were awesome and I would have gone anywhere with them. This one? not so much. Had a weird issue that I thought that I solved by reattaching the ground wire in the distributor. What I've done for the motor:
Petronix module
New Coil
Plugs and Wires.
Fuel Pump
All rubber fuel lines replaced
Rebuild carb.
Last fall I was having an intermittent issue with the motor cutting out on my under load. Intermittent issues drive me nuts because they wreck you confidence. Not a fan of gremlins.
The car is restored except for the motor. I'd like to detail it and if I'm going to do that, I might as well address the low cylinder pressure and have the heads refurbished.
Ah Gremlins.... Only problem is you could toss that engine and put in a 350 and still have the Gremlins. I would keep at it and fix the Gremlins first. Unless your problems are with engine noise, low oil pressure, using oil, low compression or overheating, all other problems are outside of the engine itself.... I love your car, by the way....
My question is do you like having the original 330 in there or don't really care if its a 350 or a 403? I myself like keeping things original/correct. I like points ignition as well, while electronics are a great improvement they could leave you dead in the water without warning. I guess the same can be said about points but a bad set of points will give warning first that they need changing. You may want to check the sock filter in the fuel tank to be sure its not starving the engine of fuel under load. Its nice having an old car for a daily driver but where I live you can't have anything nice, someone is always cashing into you, parking lot damage happens, and tree branches fall.
Those 330 heads are as good as any 350 head. That $1500 350 long block will have huge 24cc dish and short on compression height means you be under 8 to1 compression even with your 330 heads. What are your goals and budget for your build? You have many options, offset grind your 330 crank and use SBC 400 pistons and small journal rods in a 350 block. Or do the same with 350 sbc pistons and small journal rods in your 330 for a few more ci. Or you could get Cutlassefi to build you a stroker short block with his new crank. He did a 9 to 1 iron head 422 ci motor, the mild roller cam pulled 18" of vacuum but still produced 400 HP and 500 ft/lbs of torque. Good luck and many options.
Rebuilding the engine is not going to make the car more reliable based on your described issues. the exception is if one cylinder really is at 70, then you have an engine problem. Rebuilding your engine vs a 350 is your decision. For a driver either is fine.
It could be an issue with the Petronix unit itself, some have had issues with them. If you find a mid 70's 350, the HEI distributor or even the cheap Chinese HEI are well made. I upgrade the module and coil but they are probably fine as is.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Olds motors. I've had two VC's in the past a 72 with a 350 and a 69 with a 400. Both were awesome and I would have gone anywhere with them. This one? not so much. Had a weird issue that I thought that I solved by reattaching the ground wire in the distributor. What I've done for the motor:
Petronix module
New Coil
Plugs and Wires.
Fuel Pump
All rubber fuel lines replaced
Rebuild carb.
Last fall I was having an intermittent issue with the motor cutting out on my under load. Intermittent issues drive me nuts because they wreck you confidence. Not a fan of gremlins.
The car is restored except for the motor. I'd like to detail it and if I'm going to do that, I might as well address the low cylinder pressure and have the heads refurbished.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim,
How was the engine running prior to the replacement of parts and Carb rebuild listed above?
Does the engine still cut out under load periodically? Does this happen on short runs or longer runs?
Are all the battery cables, grounds etc nice and clean/tight?
Is the radiator in good condition, the core, little to no build up around the inner tubes looking inside the filler neck?
Can you hear any vacuum leaks around the carb etc? How is your fuel pressure since all the lines/pump have been changed?
How is the timing/idle? Does it fire up/idle well both cold and at operating temperature? Have you checked the backlash on the timing chain?
As others mentioned, all the above and several other components should be checked and corrected prior to considering a rebuild. These gremlin's will not disappear by just dropping a new engine in the car.
Many of us could certainly assist with some diagnostics to help you make a good decision on which way to go if you could provide more information. Take the plugs out, post a pic of them, a video of it idling with a vacuum gauge hooked up etc.
This will give many of us an pretty good indication as to the health of your current engine, Timing chain, rings, compression, fuel supply etc.
First thing I would do is check the compressions again, better still, do a leakdown test.
If it shows a leaking valve maybe a head job is all you need, if it's rings then pulling the engine for a teardown may be needed.
None of which will fix your intermittent fault.
What use will you put the car to?, if you plan plenty of miles then hardened valve seats would be a good idea, either replacement heads or have your heads worked on. If you just want to go to local cruise ins and shows then it might not be necessary.
Intermittent cutting out is either fuel or ignition related, you have an old car so rust in the fuel tank, a clogged sock, bad fuel lines, a weak pump, or a carburetor issue are all possibilities. Ignition problems boil down to is the wiring sound and are all the components in good order?. On an old points ignition car that's something any shade tree mechanic could handle.
The most reliable car is one that is completely stock and properly maintained as the factory intended. Factory engineers spent millions of dollars and several years developing and testing the car before it was released to the public for sale. That testing included driving under a far wider range of conditions than the typical owner will ever see, including hot, cold, rain, sun, snow, ice, and flood, with the car full, empty, etc, etc. NO engine swap or modification will have anywhere near that level of testing and development work, period. No matter how good you think you are, there will ALWAYS be weak points in whatever mods are made. If you are looking for an excuse to do an engine swap, don't kid yourself that it will make the car more reliable than stock. It will not. If the car is not reliable today, find and fix the problem. Don't think you can band-aid it.
The most reliable car is one that is completely stock and properly maintained as the factory intended. Factory engineers spent millions of dollars and several years developing and testing the car before it was released to the public for sale. That testing included driving under a far wider range of conditions than the typical owner will ever see, including hot, cold, rain, sun, snow, ice, and flood, with the car full, empty, etc, etc. NO engine swap or modification will have anywhere near that level of testing and development work, period. No matter how good you think you are, there will ALWAYS be weak points in whatever mods are made. If you are looking for an excuse to do an engine swap, don't kid yourself that it will make the car more reliable than stock. It will not. If the car is not reliable today, find and fix the problem. Don't think you can band-aid it.
Joe, most of us agree with this. I personally think Oldsmobile and their V8 were the most reliable cars on the road. I saw few failures from their V8's even after high miles. What did fail was an HEI out of the blue and the supposedly indestructible TH350, seen a few mid 70's TH350's fail, one with not that high of mileage. The TH200/C was a joke and even the improved 2004R failed around 130,000 km routinely. Of course I got over 400,000 km out of a TH250C but failed after one day behind a 403, beyond it's intended capacity. Ford and Dodge motors and carburetion were way behind GM but their transmissions and some rear ends were better, we owned them all. My point is, some of the components Olds had to work with weren't so hot in reliability and they are what failed. Unfortunately, as we know, many of the replacement parts, like tune up parts aren't what they used to be for quality and aren't routinely stocked anymore due to the age of our cars. I carry a bin full of spare parts for this reason alone and everything is far apart here, even if they did carry the parts I need.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; March 24th, 2019 at 07:19 AM.
Joe, most of us agree with this. I personally think Oldsmobile and their V8 were the most reliable cars on the road.
My point is not that Oldsmobiles are somehow more reliable than other cars, or even that the 1960s cars are somehow better than later ones. My point is that unless one has done ALL the engineering and testing that the factory did, no swap is going to be more reliable, period. Anyone who thinks that is naive or purposely lying to yourself. Anytime you do something that is non-stock, you introduce the risk that you have not properly accounted for the collateral damage. Have you run the vibration tests to ensure that the harnesses are tied down like factory and won't vibrate and rub through? Have you tested for adequate support at harness connectors and plumbing fittings so the parts won't sag and eventually break? Have you verified that the brake lines don't run too close to the exhaust system and boil the brake fluid?
This is why I push retrofitting factory disc brakes over aftermarket kits that combine mismatched parts, as an example. Sure, you can make mismatched parts work, but are you COMPLETELY sure that the system will properly stop the car in a panic situation in the rain with a full load? Same thing goes for engine swaps. Retrofitting a late model EFI motor with computer is a major undertaking. Can it be done? Sure. Will it work for the weekend drive to cruise night? Almost certainly. Are you 100% sure it will work on a 3,000 mile trip cross country with zero issues? Good luck with that. The problem is that people compare a swap with an original drivetrain with 100,000 miles on it. It's the "HEI improved performance of my car" argument. Sure, if you replaced old pitted points and a distributor with worn bushings and a carbon-tracked cap, I'm sure performance improved. On the other hand, if you compare a properly maintained points distributor with an HEI swap, there will be zero difference.
Without a doubt aftermarket parts can wreak havoc for the reasons you mention. But swapping out the 2 speed Jetaway for a TH350 or a 2004R is another swap to be considered. It will help acceleration a lot due to a better first gear. An Olds 350 is a direct swap, as is a 403 for the 330 block, they make more torque period due to cubic inches and more horsepower if built similarly, again due to cubic inches.
Without a doubt aftermarket parts can wreak havoc for the reasons you mention. But swapping out the 2 speed Jetaway for a TH350 or a 2004R is another swap to be considered. It will help acceleration a lot due to a better first gear. An Olds 350 is a direct swap, as is a 403 for the 330 block, they make more torque period due to cubic inches and more horsepower if built similarly, again due to cubic inches.
Obviously, replacing a 330 with an Olds 350 is a low risk, but still, which carb, choke, and intake does one use? If the later intake and Qjet, then the throttle linkage doesn't match up without work. Do these mods, allow full travel of the throttle plates? Does the kickdown switch make contact at the right times? Did the hot air stove get put back on to allow the engine to warm up faster? Is the fuel pump matched to the application? And we're talking about a Vista in this thread. Vistas used the long tail transmissions due to the wheelbase. There is no long tail 200-4R, and finding a long tail TH350 can be a challenge. Using a short tail trans means an overly long driveshaft. Now you've added the risk of driveline vibration. And if you swap in a 200-4R or TH400, did the e-brake cables get changed out or does the owner try to mickey mouse the short cables and change the locations of the hooks?
Yes, a swap CAN be reliable if done correctly. My experience is that very few people actually do them correctly, however. Most just do a half-fast job and only put in about half the original fasteners. Heck, how many threads do we have where someone asks "this part is in the way - do I need it?" No, Oldsmobile engineers routinely added unnecessary parts to increase cost and reduce profit. You get my point.
Sorry for the long wait of a reply. NY has finally gotten warm enough to make you want to go outside and work on things. Also, I was waiting for a friend to lend me his compression kit. Anyway, I did the compression test and and also took images of the plugs as I pulled them. They are not super old as I replaced them when I did the wires. So here are the numbers.
1. 125 2. 130
3. 125 4. 120
5. 125 6. 125
7. 125 8. 130
So I have a delta of 10 psi. This is weird since I swear the numbers that were written on the underside of the hood had a cylinder that was low.
Here's the plugs:
Also, since others commented, the gas tank is new as well as the sending unit. I replaced the sending unit when I got the car since they had the wrong one in it.
Lastly, it's odd to me some of the comments I have received. It's as if I'm the first person to ever want to rebuild their engine on this site. I know this to not be true since I have seen plenty of builds. I don't take offense, I just find it kind of funny.
Lastly, it's odd to me some of the comments I have received. It's as if I'm the first person to ever want to rebuild their engine on this site. I know this to not be true since I have seen plenty of builds. I don't take offense, I just find it kind of funny.
First of all, those compression readings are just fine and do not indicate the need for ring job or anything.
Second, people are not opposed to rebuilding an engine. They are opposed to rebuilding an engine unnecessarily. Your very first post gave a very weak reason for wanting to rebuild or replace the engine. You said it was "not as reliable as you would like". I asked it then, and I'll ask it again now. What the H does that mean!?
Rebuilding an engine is not a trivial exercise. It's expensive and potentially fraught with problems. For every guy that comes on this site and talks about how much he likes his rebuilt engine, there is another guy describing all the problems his newly rebuilt engine is exhibiting, such as poor oil pressure or coolant leaks. He's now spent thousands of dollars and doesn't know what to do.
In my opinion, leave the engine alone unless there is a good reason to tear it apart. If your engine has 200,000 miles on it and exhibits compression readings consistently 50 psi low and varying by a factor of two among the cylinders, then, yes, it's time for an overhaul. If the engine is pouring blue smoke out the exhaust and is the scourge of the highways, then, yes, it's time for a rebuild.
But your compression readings are fine. They give no reason to rebuild or replace anything. Don't fix what ain't broken. The symptoms you described, such as the motor cutting out, could be due to many things, none of which would be cured by an engine rebuild. They sound like ignition or fuel-delivery problems. You need to solve THOSE to make the car reliable.
The spark plugs look ok, too, but it would be good to know how many miles are on them.
Are you dealing with a lot of oil leaks, etc on the old 330?
They are actually darn good little grocery-getter engines. With those compression numbers, I would pull the engine and re-seal it with new gaskets.
Another thing you didn't mention is if it is currently a 2barrel or 4 barrel intake engine.
Some great mods would be to pull the timing cover, and install a new cam and lifter set(something with 215 degrees duration at .050 lift) as well as a new timing chain, and then install an Edelbrock Performer or performer RPM intake, along with either a good new carburetor or a nice fuel injection conversion kit.
I would run some good sanderson exhaust manifolds and a nice 2.25 or 2.5 inch dual exhaust system.
With some of these mild mods, you could easily be well over 325hp with a 330.
First of all, those compression readings are just fine and do not indicate the need for ring job or anything.
I agree with you on this. I guess I always had it in the back of my head that I had a bad cylinder due to the numbers I that were written on the underside of the hood, but this doesn't seem to be the case based on the numbers I have taken myself. So I will hold off on rebuild thoughts and fix theses issues.
- Exhaust leak on drivers side. Has new dual exhaust system on stock manifolds and I've replaced the gasket. Still have the leak.
- Every once in a while, a high pitched whistle. I assume this to be an intermittent vacuum leak.
- Small leak on return line of power steering.
- I plan on detailing the engine and will go over all wiring making sure I have good ground contacts.
The car is a stock Quadrajet that has been rebuilt and seems to run well. As far as the plugs, They have maybe 3K on them. I usually take notes but I don't seem to have a mileage timestamp when I did them.
As for cutting out under load.. this can be due to a bad ground. Look for a ground strap between the engine & body/chassis.
If none is there, add one.
I has a similar problem on a 67 LeMans, it would randomly stall when starting out on a hill.
When the engine torqued over, I could see a spark between the transmission lines & frame & the car would sputter.
Rubber lined engine mounts are the only link between the engine/frame & rely on something else to give a ground path.
Thanks for the thought. I was planning on going over all of the wiring. Well your message made me look to see if the was a ground strap. Indeed there is on the the firewall so I pulled it a little to see if it attached and it isn't connected. See image. It is in good shape so I will put it in the ultrasonic cleaner and see how good it looks. Any idea where the other end connects?
Thanks, I looked it up and yes it looks like it is supposed to go to the right head. I can feel a bolt hole there. I will just have to figure out what size to put in. One question I was wondering (This is not an argument against grounding, just curious) if the engine is grounded to the battery, which it is, how could not having the body grounded cause the engine to cut out? Does the ignition use the body ground and not the engine?
Actually I'm not sure... It may not help to connect the ground strap, but it definitely will not hurt.
My '66 also has a ground wire from the battery ground terminal to the body/radiator support bolt, adding another ground connection.
It is a 3/8"-16 NC bolt. Length is about 3/4" from memory.
What ignition system do you have?. Those plugs look like they belong on a modern lean burning engine with very high voltage to the plugs.
If you have points ignition perhaps changing to original spec plugs (& original spec gap) might help.
Maybe so, but I think you have the wrong plugs in there. Don't think sending lightning bolts to the plugs will make the car run better if it is already in good working order. That engine ran perfectly well back in the day on the 5-8k volts the points system put out, In your position I would replace the plugs for original spec ones. It won't break the bank even if it doesn't help.
Truthfully, factory point ignitions suck.
They are obsolete for a reason.
Higher voltage electronic ignitions & fine wire plugs are great technological advancements that increase power & reduce emissions.
There is nothing wrong with that type of plug. In fact the fine wire/platinum plugs perform well with any type of ignition system.
Thanks, I looked it up and yes it looks like it is supposed to go to the right head. I can feel a bolt hole there. I will just have to figure out what size to put in. One question I was wondering (This is not an argument against grounding, just curious) if the engine is grounded to the battery, which it is, how could not having the body grounded cause the engine to cut out? Does the ignition use the body ground and not the engine?
Thanks again,
Jim
If your engine has a good solid ground, anything connected to the engine will have a good solid ground. The body relies on the ground strap you pictured for a solid reliable ground and if it is intermittent then every electrical circuit connected to the body of the vehicle will have an intermittent ground path. You are using a Pertronix distributor that gets its 12V positive feed through the ignition switch attached to the body of the vehicle. If the body is not grounded properly you will have unusual voltage potential differences between the engine and body of the vehicle. If they get too far off electronic things might begin to shut off where non-electronic things would not. Fix that ground and I think you may solve a lot of your "reliability" issues.
I ground mine to a valve cover bolt. I think in 64 anyway thats where it went and the eye hole in the ground fits the valve cover bolt size. It's a ground I believe for the dash lights.
Truthfully, factory point ignitions suck.
They are obsolete for a reason.
And that reason has nothing to do with performance. Point-style ignition systems were replaced with electronic because the EPA mandated that new cars had to meet emissions requirements for 50,000 miles without a tuneup. Points obviously could not meet that requirement. The high energy coils were required to fire these 50K mile crusty plugs and ignite the lean mixtures necessitated by smog laws.
The plugs neither know nor care if the switch that opens to collapse the magnetic field in the coil is a mechanical switch or an electronic one. Yes, there ARE some benefits to high-end electronic ignition systems that take advantage of the electronics to lengthen dwell time, for example, or to be able to tailor spark advance on a cylinder-by-cylinder basis when integrated into a fully computerized engine management system. The typical electronic point replacement system like a Pertronix or even a factory GM HEI distributor do not do that.
March 22nd, 2019, 05:06 PM
