New Olds serpentine setup - ClassicOldsmobile.com


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Old March 12th, 2014, 08:10 PM   #1
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New Olds serpentine setup

Here are some pictures of a project Iíve been working on for a while, with the help of several people. The Olds engine has never had a premium aftermarket serpentine accessory drive that met my requirements for use, so I decided to try to make one. The Chevy serpentine bracket conversion is a reasonably priced option (details here: http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic252.html), though it has some challenges in a G-body. I made several prototypes out of MDF, here is the final layout shown on a BBO. The design is currently in the process of being turned into a computer model for rapid prototyping and machining. Things like cross bar location may be moved for aesthetic or functional purposes. A huge thanks to Larry and Bill for the help so far, especially with block dimensional information.







Iím putting this information out at a high-level to survey the market and get some preliminary feedback from people who are potentially interested. This setup will use a CS130 alternator (140 amp easily available), a Type II GM power steering pump, a reverse-rotation water pump and an R4 A/C compressor (or delete pulley).

This setup is nowhere near ready for production, and the first setup will be on my car for testing prior to any availability. I am not interested in collecting deposits from people or giving away setups to test (since I doubt more than a handful will even be interested). If you are interested in being an early tester, let me know, just know it will cost the full amount (possibly more), as parts will have no volume production efficiency and Iíve already sunk plenty of money into buying parts for development purposes.

I anticipate that the whole setup with new accessories will be in line with what other companies charge for a premium serpentine setup. Iíd put a budgetary cost in the low-$2k range, but the final price is TBD. The materials bracket machining process isnít cheap, and the accessories are quality parts. Buying cheaper accessories may be able to bring the price down some, but I canít tell you how much. Some of the uncertainty is being driven by using production car pulleys vs custom pulleys, which hasnít been finalized at this point.

Hereís what I need from you. If you are interested and a willing buyer at the targeted price point, please let me know in this thread, via PM or via email. In your response, please state whether you would be using an R4 compressor, A/C delete pulley, or a Sanden compressor (R-134a conversion), AND what harmonic balancer you would be using. There will be no financial commitment on your end, but the responses I get will determine some of the final design details. If we are making 4 of these, thereís no point in going over the top with some of the design details and cost reduction efforts. If we get interest to 10+, we can try to make a few things more efficient. If Larry and I end up as the only two people with this setup, weíre cool with that too. If someone wants a Sanden A/C compressor version, and has a compressor I can borrow to model, that would also be a huge help.

Flame away. I'll put some more details in the next post...

Last edited by 83hurstguy; March 13th, 2014 at 08:18 AM.
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Old March 12th, 2014, 08:10 PM   #2
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Here’s what I anticipate the most common questions to be, and some answers:

Why choose this over V-belts?
• Serpentine belts use less energy to bend and flex due to their thin cross-section.
• Accessories are significantly more compact, leading to a cleaner engine compartment.
• Automatic tensioning, no more squealing or ruined bearings from over-tensioning.
• Because it’s cool.

Why choose this over the Chevy bracket conversion?
• Compact spacing, no hood clearance issues with high alternator bracket.
• Rigidity, plan to require no braces.
• Works on both SBO and BBO with no differences between the brackets.
• Clearance between P/S pump and box on G-body, don’t need to overdrive P-pump with small pulley.
• Finding aluminum diesel water pumps may turn into a scarce resource.

What water pump is that?
• I’m currently keeping that information proprietary until the design is complete. It is not a production car application, though it is also available from a few sources. The water pump is better than most stock replacement Olds pumps because it has a machined high-flow impeller. Going with a regular rotation water pump would require two idler pulleys, one on each side of the water pump. Look at Chrysler serpentine setups from Billet Specialties for an example of what the extra idlers would look like. To keep the system simple and low-drag, I went the reverse rotation route.
• It should have provision for both the water pump bypass and heater hose suction, pending final design decisions.

Does it work with a mechanical fuel pump?
• No. The positioning of the Olds fuel pump requires the A/C compressor be placed high or far from the block to work. Using a RobbMc mechanical pump was one of my original goals, it’s just not going to be possible.

Does it work with aftermarket balancers?
• Good question, haven’t gotten that far yet. It eventually will, somehow. There’s no problem here that more money can’t fix.

Why are you using a junk R4 compressor?
• Because it’s for my car, which is still running R-12. The V-belt to serpentine pulley/clutch assembly should be interchangeable (to be attempted soon).
• There are readily available A/C delete pulleys available to replace the R4 compressor, so this design will work for the A/C delete cars as well.
• If there is enough interest, I will design them for Sanden compressors.

Will it work with aftermarket heads?
• It should.

Can I tie this into a halo girdle for bottom end support?
• Definitely, as long as you weld it.

Can you make a cheaper version?
• No. That’s why this has taken so long… the Chevy conversion will suit the budget market, there’s no other efficient way to make this setup compact, rigid and cheaper.

Why isn’t your car done?
• Because I keep wasting time on stupid things like this.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 01:03 AM   #3
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I think its great your developing components and support your interest in the Oldsmobile community, keep up the nice work.
Pm me, I might be able to help with the design/engineering aspects and production of the components.

Brad@
Wise Performance Engineering

Last edited by Wise Performance; March 13th, 2014 at 01:08 AM.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 05:58 AM   #4
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Thanks Brad. I have Pro/Engineer, so I'm doing the design myself, and Larry is going to be doing the machining. I'll let you know if anything comes up and we need a hand.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 06:16 AM   #5
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Nice work. I think it's great that this will be offered as a complete kit with all the accessories included. Also very smart to have an AC delete option. Are you planning on having a billet pulley upgrade option? I also think you're doing a smart thing by testing the product on your own ride to work out any of the bugs before you bring it to market. I think a lot of guys are going to choke on the price, but in my eyes, anyone who is serious about performance upgrades shouldn't have an issue. The only thing that would concern me about your idea, is people that will spring for this set up will want a warranty on the compressor, alternator, power steering pump, tensioner, belt and pulleys. Now you've just become a middle man, and opened yourself up for problems, that you don't have any control of. Who's going to pay for the shipping, in the event of failure?
Just a thought, but maybe you might want to consider selling just the pieces that you manufacture for this upgrade. That way you will not be responsible for someone else's product.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 06:52 AM   #6
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Me personally I wouldn't buy it. It is overkill for a 350 2bl. I do think it is neat and you should be thanked for trying to bring more things to the olds community. Good luck with it and hope you make some money.(at least break even)

Larry
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Old March 13th, 2014, 07:27 AM   #7
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I think it's pretty cool and I would definitely consider buying it. It looks nice and simple. I have seen some of the other setups that people run and they look worse (I didn't think that was possible) than the original. I hate the design of original brackets, they could hold a jet engine in place. This would eliminate a lot of problems in my continuous efforts to clean up the engine bay. Keep up the good work.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67 Cutlass Freak View Post
Nice work. I think it's great that this will be offered as a complete kit with all the accessories included. Also very smart to have an AC delete option. Are you planning on having a billet pulley upgrade option? I also think you're doing a smart thing by testing the product on your own ride to work out any of the bugs before you bring it to market. I think a lot of guys are going to choke on the price, but in my eyes, anyone who is serious about performance upgrades shouldn't have an issue. The only thing that would concern me about your idea, is people that will spring for this set up will want a warranty on the compressor, alternator, power steering pump, tensioner, belt and pulleys. Now you've just become a middle man, and opened yourself up for problems, that you don't have any control of. Who's going to pay for the shipping, in the event of failure?
Just a thought, but maybe you might want to consider selling just the pieces that you manufacture for this upgrade. That way you will not be responsible for someone else's product.
Thanks for the feedback... that's already the plan. I'm not interested in this being a business or a middleman. The kit would be brackets and pulleys (billet pulleys eventually), potentially also the water pump. Instructions would provide the applications and part numbers for replacement parts available anywhere, and accessories will be purchased by the buyer. I estimated the high end accessories from vendors when producing the low $2k number. If you bought parts store alternator, p/s pump and used production pulleys somehow, it could probably dip down to $1600ish total.

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Me personally I wouldn't buy it. It is overkill for a 350 2bl. I do think it is neat and you should be thanked for trying to bring more things to the olds community. Good luck with it and hope you make some money.(at least break even)

Larry
Thanks. I doubt I'll make money or break even, but I knew that going in. I figured I'd make it for myself and see if there's any interest.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:20 AM   #9
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I think the demand will be much greater than you think... Great Project!
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:22 AM   #10
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Could you remove the idler and replace it with a Pro Charger?? LOL Nice job, Luke, very clean!!
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:26 AM   #11
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One question, How about the AIR pump? Will the setup be compatable with it?
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:42 AM   #12
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Could you remove the idler and replace it with a Pro Charger?? LOL Nice job, Luke, very clean!!
Thanks Jim. That's a spring loaded tensioner so it has to stay. I wouldn't run the 6 rib belt with the blower... but with a custom crank pulley, there is room to run a separate belt. Set it low on the outside of the passenger side, then route piping across front of car for intercooler, then back to the intake. No reason you can't have 6 psi and 40* air coming out the vents.

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One question, How about the AIR pump? Will the setup be compatable with it?
No AIR pump provision... the Chevy brackets will support that underneath the A/C compressor. That design compensates by putting the tensioner up high. I never reviewed an AIR pump that had a serpentine pulley, though I know they exist.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #13
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I threw the V-belt setup on tonight for comparison. Couldn't find my spare V-belt power steering pulley, so you'll have to do without that. The quality isn't great... older iPhone is the best I can do for now.





The A/C compressor spacers and brace to head stud, P/S spacers, alternator bracket that goes to a header bolt, and hidden P/S bolts gave me a good reminder of why I'm doing this again.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 07:40 PM   #14
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That can out really nice
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Old August 9th, 2014, 01:07 PM   #15
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great idea

Great idea man, but if you wanna sell them, your gonna have to get that price down. I need a system now, and I'll probably go with

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/mch-16030

But if you got your kit ready, im definitely interested!!
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Old August 29th, 2015, 05:33 PM   #16
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I figured it's time to bump this thread to display Larry's craftsmanship... here's the first prototype assembled for a fitment check, and everything looks great.





I'm waiting on an extra engine block to get back from cleaning at the machine shop, and I'll have it mocked up, hopefully in a week or so. The next step is to figure out testing...
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Old August 29th, 2015, 07:35 PM   #17
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Nice
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 05:35 AM   #18
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This...is...AWESOME....seriously. I've seen the Chevy pulley setup but it looks really awkward on a car with the alternator being so high. This really is pretty badass.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 06:41 AM   #19
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Thanks guys.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 08:43 PM   #20
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Finally got my empty/cleaned block back so I could mock up the belt drive. This is a BBO, even though it has #5 heads sitting on it.





Pohlcat, here's the clearance behind the alternator to block... I'll have to try to actually measure it tomorrow, but I'm not guessing you'll have luck with that full radius fitting.



Here's why you have no room for a mechanical fuel pump. If you could mount it upside down like several other engine makes, you'd have a chance.



Final glamour shot with the A/C delete pulley.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 08:44 PM   #21
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I also fit up an R4 A/C compressor with G-body A/C lines so you could see how it fit with stock valve covers on a BBO. A SBO will have more room... either way, it's still more room than you have stock. Won't fit huge valve covers with A/C, but you should be able to go slightly taller if necessary.







Dimensional fitment looks really good. A few minor tweaks, but most due to accessory tolerances. Gotta work on some potential sealing details for the water pump, and it should be ready for testing soon.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 01:46 PM   #22
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Looking at the way that A4 compressor fits....would a Sanden even fit in front of the cylinder head?
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Old September 16th, 2015, 02:28 PM   #23
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There's more room than appears in that picture. I just went out to the garage... an SD7 has enough clearance, but would need adapter brackets or design tweaks at this point due to the mounting differences.

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Old September 16th, 2015, 06:25 PM   #24
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I like it! If it would be in my budget I would be interested in buying a setup.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 06:35 AM   #25
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Quick question, would you happen to know the added distance (from the front of the block or from the front of the OE setup) the setup is over the OE v-belt setup? It's tight up in front for me due to electric fans.

I would consider taking Brad's offer too, see if there's a way to drive the price down, for one.

.

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Old January 16th, 2016, 07:09 AM   #26
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Luhn Performance makes a serpentine setup for Olds (and Pontiacs) that does either a ProCharger or a Vortec, and includes AC.

http://www.luhnperformance.com

Not cheap though, but quality is outstanding. Attached is a pic of the Pontiac one, but think he's several revisions ahead of this pic.

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Old January 17th, 2016, 06:37 AM   #27
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A masterpiece, Da Vinci would be jealous. Outstanding job!!!! Just what we were waiting for.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 11:15 AM   #28
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Quick question, would you happen to know the added distance (from the front of the block or from the front of the OE setup) the setup is over the OE v-belt setup? It's tight up in front for me due to electric fans.

I would consider taking Brad's offer too, see if there's a way to drive the price down, for one.

.
Sorry for the slow response, had to get it out to measure. My mockup engine is being used for all my stock '68 accessories at the moment...

The farthest point of the water pump is 7" from the timing cover. I figured if a stock Olds 7" pump works, this will as well.

To answer your questions from the other thread, studs hold the water pump on. It wouldn't work with a 10/12 SI as those have 12/6 o clock mounting ears.

I wish I had designed this with an SD7 as well. I don't feel like buying one to design around though, as my '68 is non-air, and I don't really want to sink any more money/time on the design side of this right now, at least until I get it tested.

As for the price, a lot of that is driven by being unable to bulk purchase the accessories. Someone would need to take the risk, go manufacturer direct, buy 20 of each part, then hope they all sell. I have no interest in taking that risk, as the return still wouldn't be there (e.g. the retail price would be the same, but you might actually make a few bucks on each one). I burned a ton of money in the development process buying other/cheaper parts and trying to modify them to work so they were all junk in the end. It's a sickness......

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Old January 22nd, 2016, 05:46 PM   #29
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Your mounting design is very impressive. I was not sure if the belt routing in the pictures is final, but most serpentine arrangements I have seen typically have the belt wrap at least 1/2 way around the crank pulley. Most are 2/3 to 3/4. Your design appears to have only about 1/3 wrap on the crank. That may not be enough if all of the accessories are loaded. You might consider bringing the right side of the belt (facing the engine) all the way around the crank to the water pump first and then back down to the power steering pulley. This will give you more wrap around the crank and the power steering pulleys. This may require another idler pulley between the alternator and the A/C compressor to gain some of the alternator wrap back. It would also lower the belt and minimize any bouncing across the top, although it might be okay without it if you don't mind the belt running up high in the open.
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Old May 12th, 2016, 07:37 PM   #30
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What ever happened to this project looks impeccable
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Old May 12th, 2016, 08:18 PM   #31
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Thanks. Haven't tested it yet... the engine for my '68 should be done in the next month or two, so I'll have a running engine to test it on at that point.
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Old May 13th, 2016, 05:31 PM   #32
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What's up with the SBC water pump? Was it easier to make adapters for that than to use the Olds diesel V6 pump?
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Old November 27th, 2016, 06:42 AM   #33
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No rush....any news? ha
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Old November 28th, 2016, 02:24 PM   #34
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No. My 455 is running, and I'm actually in the process of getting an extra car that I can test this setup in. However, I'm also relocating back to the Chicago area, so that's going to be my main focus for the next few months.
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Old March 19th, 2017, 07:26 PM   #35
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interested

I'm interested in how this turns out once you get back to work on the important things!
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Old April 7th, 2017, 08:27 PM   #36
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I'm Interested as well.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 07:27 PM   #37
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Thanks for the interest. I'm looking forward to driving and testing it this summer. All moved, have a test car, been picking up the parts to get it on the road, just need everything to come together. In the process of building the rear end for the car now... I'll keep everyone posted.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 06:25 PM   #38
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I'm interested. Will it work on a '65 330?
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