Does anyone know weather or not the convertable 442s from 68-72 used the rear frame triagulating braces that went from the forward lower control arm to the forward upper control arm?

 

bump

 

Ok I'm confused. Are you talking about the body braces that were used from the lower rear controls arm and braced to the body? If you are, any vert ordered with an FE2 or F41 suspension would have them.

 

Rear frame braces were not used with any suspension in 68. The assembly manual doesn't even show them. I read somewhere that they didn't start until 70 and were used with MT cars and (maybe) convertibles.

 

Mike, you're right they weren't on 68/69. They did start in 1970. Not sure if it was a requirement of MT though. The 70 AM says for 455 engines except for 4800. 71 AM says for 4400 and 35L32. 72 AM says with models 32,36 and 4200 with 35L32. Maybe you can fill in the blanks for 70 and 71. For 72, it makes sense. Rob pointed out to me that 35L32 was the W30 option which was available on Cutlass, Cutlass S and CS in 72.

 

But My 69 4 speed Vert had them on there, I do not think they were added afterward??? just sayin..

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie Hansen

But My 69 4 speed Vert had them on there, I do not think they were added afterward??? just sayin..

The original assembly of these cars seems to follow the assembly manual pretty closely. The discrepancies usually come when certain option packages required certain other options as "standard" (like the W36 stripe on the 68 W30's). Neither the 68 or 69 assembly manuals show the frame braces. I'm not saying it isn't possible but at least one of the guys I know that worked in Lansing in the late sixties & early seventies said basically "If it was in the assembly manual, that's the way it was put together". I'm sure they became a pretty popular option to add on because (in theory) they help resist the the rotating and bending of the upper frame cross member which is basically what takes place during wheel hop.

 

My 68w30 originaly came with them and my 69 442 4 speed also came with then, I know a guy that bought his car new and it is a 68 442 4 speed and it came with them as well

 

My convertible does not have them. I would consider adding if anyone has noticed a real improvement.

 

I put them on mine but I honesty have never dumped the clutch on the car to know if they actually do anything. I get wheel hop when I get on it from a dead stop but I've never really pushed it to see how bad it gets. I always wuss-out and get out of it as soon as it gets loose

 

well i do not have much to say about the frame braces but the pic that allan put up is SWEET! he,he,he,

 

Glad you like it. I am not above stealing pics from anyone to make a point. I kept it in my picture file because I have a set to put into my car and needed a visual reference. Nothing better than the real McCoy. You know you're going to be a go to guy if I have any problems with mine, don't you?

Far as the frames go, if they were the same from 68-72 in all A body lines, why wouldn't there be provision for the body braces?

I looked really hard for any information on these and the only stuff I could come up with is in the AM's and the SPECS booklet. FWIW 68 and 69 do not show anything for an FE2 or F41 suspension anywhere I looked.

I accept on good faith that if someone has a 68/69 Cutlass or 442 that has the body braces from the factory, the 68/69 AM could be wrong . So far though the only ones who have claimed them are owners of 442s and W30's with 4 speeds.

 

Not sure what you meant Allan...but no "provision" required on the frame itself as these were a bolt on part.

 

Allan (and all, for that matter), ya gots ta use all of the resources ya got. And yup, its on Wild About Cars for all to use!
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=26
Note the are '68-'69 are not included. These braces we "retrofitted" in big numbers on older (older the '70) cars over the years as a suspension upgrade. Even modifying to add to '66-'67 frames.
So it is not surprising at all to find them on '68-'69 cars. To this point, I've seen no evidence that they came on any factory car prior to '70.

 

Like Allen (& Wmachines) said, the 68-69 assembly manuals don't show frame braces. The detail for frame braces was added to a page in the 1970 assembly manual that is about 3 or 4 pages after the page that details the rear end. The detail was inserted into a spot that was blank in the 68 and 69 manuals. (the pages of the 68, 69, & 70 manuals are almost identical except for the page numbers).


FWIW I did a search over at www.chevelle.com and there's a recent three page thread on it & none of them could agree if it was a factory installation prior to 70 either.

 

From a true researcher's point of view, something doesn't exist until there is evidence that it does. The fact of braces being on older cars is not "evidence that they came that way". So at this point *based on the evidence*, they're not factory prior to '70. And the parts book listing is pretty strong evidence in this case. If the braces were, say, late in the '69 year additions and didn't show up in the Assembly Manuals available, then they still *should* have shown up as applications in the '72 parts book. And they don't. That is pretty strong evidence. A Chevy forum is not.

 

I'm in agreement with you. I took the time to research each Olds assembly manual from 68-70. My reference to the Chevelle forum was simply a statement that there's a lot of confusion. As I stated above, my belief is if it isn't in the assembly manual or part of a later service bulletin than it wasn't factory correct.

 

All I was suggesting is that the basic frame didn't change. I'd be curious to know if frames from 68/69 actually had the hole in the cross member for the brace (reinforcement) to bolt to. I realize the brace is bolt on (I have a set) to the LRCA and the body. If it does, perhaps the intent was there originally to have the reinforcement as part of assembly. IIRC looking at the chassis, the upper brace location looks like it was specially formed to accept the brace.

Actually I did use the GM Parts manual - The AM for 72 shows the parts number for the reinforcements and I looked them up. Found the same as you. That's why I had posted the info ^^^ in regards to not finding it for 68/69.

Agree. I also point out that Jim W30 claims his came with them when the car was bought new. I have only his word on that. But if he bought the car new and can prove his case (build sheet?), I believe that may also be considered valid evidence?

The only evidence I can find for the reinforcements is in AMs and Parts Manual. I looked at my (big leather bound) 72 Ordering Guide and the FE2 suspension does NOT show or even list the body braces as part of the FE2. It does list HD frt/rr sway bars, HD frt/rr springs, HD frt/rr shocks, HD rr suspension control arms (boxed). So, what this suggests according to the AM is that the reinforcements were only for 455 engines? (35L32 - W30 option)

 

One hole in the brace is attached at the forward lower control arm bolt and the other end is the forward upper control arm bolt. There are no additional holes in the frame required for the frame braces.

Here's a pic of mine (a little closer than the one you posted above and no where near as pretty)

 

Would these be a bolt-on for 67?

 

Thx Mike. That is exactly what I was curious about. BTW, don't know if you read it in the post, but that pic actually is charlierogers car. I just stole the pic to clarify my original question. Charlie has a great looking build going. Yours looks pretty darn nice too! My body (ok, car body) is great but I'd love to have the space to roll out the chassis and blast/coat it. Then I could also run all new brake/fuel lines much easier.

 

Allan, thnx for the compliment. You have a fantastic ride. I notice you rebuilt front end..what brand parts did you use? Did you change steering box ratio?

 

Just went back to check the OP. Does this address your question? Lots of good info presented.

Hey miked!
Thx! I see you're on the planning for retirement stages? You'll love it. At first you 'kinda miss' going to work, but when you get going with all the things that you never had time for before? You're almost busier than when you were working. Oh, and watch out for the 'Honey do" jar. It seems to get bigger and fuller. Just plan your $$$ to match a realistic lifestyle and you'll be just fine! Somehow retirement and laundry are linked. Darned if I can figure out how, but most of my shirts and coveralls seem to have shrunk in the laundry since I retired. Still trying to figure this out ....

Check your frame to see if the rear cross brace looks like the one in the pics we posted. I'm not familiar with the 67 frame. So what we need a 66/67 expert to confirm is whether the RLCAs would be mounted in the same position. The braces are a fixed length and the attachment points have fixed angles. I believe Kurt (Wmachines) may have been referring to a required modification to make them fit 66/67 when he posted My front end build, I relied pretty much on NAPA, In Line Tube (ILT) and Partsource (Autozone in US). NAPA gave me HUGE price breaks - better than buying from R.A. and paying shipping! The only issue I have with the NAPA parts was the PS pressure hose. The metal parts are not shaped as OEM. Too late (after installed) I found I could get them reproduced at Gregg's Distributors for only slightly more. Everything else fits nicely.

The PS gearbox is the original and retains its original gearing ratio. Thought about going quick ratio, but I haven't heard anything really stellar about it from Rob Young. (he installed one in his car. Cost a fair $$ to rebuild).

Doing all this stuff myself was really rewarding. BTW, if you look at the rebuild pics I've put comments about problems encountered, solutions, suggestions etc under them. Will be putting up more pics when I get around to doing the rear suspension/fuel tank and dash mods

 

I think you guys got it all figured out where and when those front and rear braces were applicable, but to summarize, if I may, those braces were strictly for big block cars only and then only on the front of coupes. They had nothing to do with any suspension options. My 71 SX hardtop has front and rear braces and did not come with the factory FE2 or F40 suspension. It was for strength and not handling due to the torque of the 455. Convertibles did not receive the front ones. In the 71 Assembly manual it specifically states 455 coupes only received the front braces. However the section on the rear braces specifically states for 442 and L32 cars (455 SX) receive the braces but does not mention anything different for convertibles. Based on the front brace exception, the rear braces must be applicable for all big block A body cars. (I now wonder if wagons had them?)
Alan R, you are right about Napa's prices, I priced a centrelink DS749 at Fusicks (116.00) , CTC (98) and Napa was $82. If you show them a CAA card they knock another 7% off. Tie rods were also similarily discounted, and no shipping costs. Can't beat that.

 

Actually I did beat that. Let me share how you might be able to get an even better price. If you can get a corporate discount ( and I can because my old company allows retirees to enjoy that privilege - I kept my corporate ID card to use at the counter) the center link ended up costing me 69.04 instead of 89.89 - that's a 24% savings.
My total bill for inner/outer tie rods, center link, tie rod adjusters, control arm bushings *upper & lower, shocks, upper/lower ball joints, bleeder screws, idler arm was 457.83 + tax. Without the discount it would have been 631.06 + tax

It was a lot of money to drop all at one time, but I figured it out by comparing R.A.s lower costs to their higher shipping costs (did you ever notice they just keep adding to the shipping total as if each part was being sent by itself instead of using the overall volume/weight?) and I actually came out ahead by buying locally. Plus I didn't have to wait on shipping. So I ended up with an overall discount of 27%.

ILT didn't have any on line promotions, but they shipped way cheaper than Rock Auto would. Their parts were good and everything went together nicely. A local Nut and Bolt supply store (good prices to start with) got me a lot of the nuts, clips, bolts etc and gave 15% off for cash sale. That means repeat business in my books. Take advantage of any money savings you can. This is not a cheap hobby.

 

RocketBrian,
To answer your question about did wagons have these extra braces, no. I tired to put a set on my Vista Crusier "SX" & the frame is totally different at the top attachment area & there fore can not be used(at least not easily).

 

'70 W-31 cars as well I believe.

 

Weren't the W31 cars 350s? The AM for 70 says only the 455's got the braces.

 

Isn't it amazing the markup on these parts? Even with your corporate discount Napa is still making moey. That's a great deal you got, even if you had to break the bank to do so. Napa at one time was about the most expensive place to buy parts. I'll be heading there when I buy more, even happy with only the CAA discount. On the original topic, I don't have a copy of the 70 AM, but 71 AM states only 455s got the braces. W31s were indeed 350s.

 

Agreed. No one rides for free anymore.... Anytime I find a great part supply or pricing I like to let folks know. The unfortunate part of demographics is that some places have incredible deals, and others get screwed over like a rooster in a flock of chickens

Brian,
Here's a link to section 4 of the AM for 70. http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...2_-_Sec_5_.pdf refer to page 104

If you'd like to get a lot more info for free, may I suggest joining the Wild About Cars website? It's free and best of all you can share the wealth of info they have there. Most of it is Olds related, but other brands are featured too. Plus you get a monthly newsletter about what's going on. Clik http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990286468866 to join.

 

Yes - I see that in the manual but a W-31 that never appeared to be messed with underneath tells me differently.

 

The page from the parts book that W Machines linked above says 70-1 OAI and that should include the W31.
You can use the braces on 66-7 frames; I have. You need to drill a new hole in the braces, as the distance is shorter. Also, back out the bolts until they just come through the frame so the braces will go on. Don't back the bolts out farther or the rear end and springs will force them out of alignment with the holes.

 

Just another research point here. Again, here is another case where one needs to use all of the resources one can get. The as RTR says, the Parts Catalog does specifically say that the W31s had them. But the Assembly doesn't. Why? There are a few factors that come into play here. We can be certain from some evidence and personal testimony from those that worked at the plants that the Assembly Manual revisions were not an exact mirror (especially time-wise) of what was going down the line. And surprisingly (to me, at least), many times the revision date was well *after* something was changed. So much for engineering protocol. And we also do not have any way of knowing if we have the last revision to any of these drawings.
Studying the drawings and noting the *very* early dates on most, along with the rather loose tie-ins to especially the last half of the production year leads me to believe that the Assembly Manual drawings were much more of a developmental tool than a production control tool. Notice that it is *us* that call them "Assembly Manuals". Notice that they were actually called "Product Information Manual"s.

And directly to this case with the braces, the last print revision was half way though the production year.

 

[QUOTE=Rocketbrian;366695]I think you guys got it all figured out where and when those front and rear braces were applicable, but to summarize, if I may, those braces were strictly for big block cars only and then only on the front of coupes. They had nothing to do with any suspension options. My 71 SX hardtop has front and rear braces and did not come with the factory FE2 or F40 suspension. It was for strength and not handling due to the torque of the 455. Convertibles did not receive the front ones. In the 71 Assembly manual it specifically states 455 coupes only received the front braces. However the section on the rear braces specifically states for 442 and L32 cars (455 SX) receive the braces but does not mention anything different for convertibles. Based on the front brace exception, the rear braces must be applicable for all big block A body c ars. (I now wonder if wagons had them?)


My factory 455 Cutlass wagon did not originally have the braces...

 

......and if anyone has old car salvage places around you can find these on first generation Monte Carlos. A pain to remove sometimes (cars sitting in the dirt/mud or stacked on top of another car) but if you see one that has eacy "access" in a salvage place you might take a peek under the car. Not 100% sure if these were limited to big block Montes but it's another source for those that are looking to add them to a car.