3 Speed Manual on the floor
May 16th, 2009, 06:50 AM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,841
The 4 speed was an option as were the other items. In principle, I think you could order any combination (subject to specific ordering restrictions). It is not as likely that someone would pay for buckiets and console but not get the 4 speed too.
May 17th, 2009, 04:22 PM
#5
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
Okay, guys, we're starting to sound like that Brand X forum.
Here it is:
1971 was the last year that a 3-speed floor shift (M14 Heavy Duty) was available, and it included a Hurst shifter. It was independent of a console and seats. (Console was option D55, and of course required bucket seats). Interestingly, a console could not be had with an M-14 on the base Cutlass model in '71.
The only floor shift manual in '72 and '73 was the M20 wide ratio 4-speed.
Here it is:
1971 was the last year that a 3-speed floor shift (M14 Heavy Duty) was available, and it included a Hurst shifter. It was independent of a console and seats. (Console was option D55, and of course required bucket seats). Interestingly, a console could not be had with an M-14 on the base Cutlass model in '71.
The only floor shift manual in '72 and '73 was the M20 wide ratio 4-speed.
May 17th, 2009, 05:17 PM
#6
"me somebody" site member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,612
In the early 90s, I test drove a '71 Cutlass convertible with buckets, console, and a 3 speed manual...was advertised in my company newsletter by a woman in her mid/late 40s, the original owner. Was canary yellow with saddle interior and a white top. Price was $1500. I didn't buy it because it has some rust in the quarters. Dumb.
May 17th, 2009, 05:33 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,498
Okay, guys, we're starting to sound like that Brand X forum.
Here it is:
1971 was the last year that a 3-speed floor shift (M14 Heavy Duty) was available, and it included a Hurst shifter. It was independent of a console and seats. (Console was option D55, and of course required bucket seats). Interestingly, a console could not be had with an M-14 on the base Cutlass model in '71.
The only floor shift manual in '72 and '73 was the M20 wide ratio 4-speed.
Here it is:
1971 was the last year that a 3-speed floor shift (M14 Heavy Duty) was available, and it included a Hurst shifter. It was independent of a console and seats. (Console was option D55, and of course required bucket seats). Interestingly, a console could not be had with an M-14 on the base Cutlass model in '71.
The only floor shift manual in '72 and '73 was the M20 wide ratio 4-speed.
May 17th, 2009, 06:10 PM
#8
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
How can you be sure of that? No offense, but lots of people have said (and believed) things like that with no proof. And my information could be wrong, but quite frankly I'd need to see proof to believe it.
May 17th, 2009, 06:35 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,498
i guess there is no way to prove it because i was not alive in 1972 but i have no doubt that it was original. i understand what you are saying about people knowing something without proof, believe me i have heard enough of that myself.
May 17th, 2009, 09:31 PM
#10
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
I looked in my 1972 Sales brochure (the SPECS book that Olds Salesmen got) and the base transmission in 1972 was still the 3 speed manual. 4 speed and AT were options. I tend to think that jensracing is telling it just like it is. A nice post coupe with very little options would definitely fit the bill of meeting the factory base at the time. I would agree that it's unusual to see a 3 speed from 1972, but not impossible. Don't know the answer to this one though: Were Olds 3 speeds also offered on the tree?
May 17th, 2009, 10:07 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Somerset Wisconsin
Posts: 1,167
Three on the tree
May 18th, 2009, 03:27 AM
#15
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
I looked in my 1972 Sales brochure (the SPECS book that Olds Salesmen got) and the base transmission in 1972 was still the 3 speed manual. 4 speed and AT were options. I tend to think that jensracing is telling it just like it is. A nice post coupe with very little options would definitely fit the bill of meeting the factory base at the time. I would agree that it's unusual to see a 3 speed from 1972, but not impossible. Don't know the answer to this one though: Were Olds 3 speeds also offered on the tree?
Though the three on the tree was standard, they're pretty rare!!
May 18th, 2009, 10:25 AM
#16
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,259
Up until the early 1970s, the base transmission on most of the A-body cars was a column shifted three speed Saginaw. During that period, the base trans on the 442 was a floor-shifted Dearborn (read: Ford) three speed manual. The base interior on the 442 was bucket seats. The console was an extra cost option.
May 18th, 2009, 12:21 PM
#17
Okay, guys, we're starting to sound like that Brand X forum.
Here it is:
1971 was the last year that a 3-speed floor shift (M14 Heavy Duty) was available, and it included a Hurst shifter. It was independent of a console and seats. (Console was option D55, and of course required bucket seats). Interestingly, a console could not be had with an M-14 on the base Cutlass model in '71.
The only floor shift manual in '72 and '73 was the M20 wide ratio 4-speed.
Here it is:
1971 was the last year that a 3-speed floor shift (M14 Heavy Duty) was available, and it included a Hurst shifter. It was independent of a console and seats. (Console was option D55, and of course required bucket seats). Interestingly, a console could not be had with an M-14 on the base Cutlass model in '71.
The only floor shift manual in '72 and '73 was the M20 wide ratio 4-speed.
May 18th, 2009, 12:55 PM
#19
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
According to the 1972 Olds Ordering guide for Power Train Module - manual Transmissions: when the 6 cylinder was discontinued, so was the 3 and 4 speed trans used with those engines. So were the 3 speed floor shift heavy duty (M14) and the 4 Speed close radio heavy duty (M22), so you're right on the money for that information......
Now I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that some of us might be thinking that this automatically turfs the 3 speed manual trans Soooo, read on....
That left the 3 speed (M15) which came in both column shift AND floor shift only available on the L32 or L34 350's - which was still listed as normal build (read unless optional automatic ordered) equipment transmission of the day. The 3-speed FLOOR SHIFT (1972) is also listed as as part of the 1972 performance Hurst Shifter (W39) and available only on the L32 or L34 engines. Availability for this option is listed as: Cutlass, Cutlass S coupes and Cutlass Supreme coupe and convertible.
There was also the 4 speed wide ratio (M20) only availaable on the L34 350 and L75 and L77 455's. You had to upgrade to get AT on all the Cutlass models.
With all this information taken directly from a GM ordering guide, I think it's highly likely that Jensracing's friend may have a legit 3 speed M15 floor shift on his 72. The GM information tends to contradict yours, but on the other hand, GM was and still is notorious for making changes during the model year; discontinuing some options and upgrading others. No, I'm not an expert on Olds. Never claimed to be. The only point of this is to look at all the possibilities. What's the source of your information that says the M15 is not available as a floor shift?
Here is Page 118 from the Product information binder (had to crop it into 2 sections to keep the print legible)
May 18th, 2009, 05:00 PM
#20
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
My apologies, guys. Allan, you are absolutely correct. The 3-speed manual floor shift does certainly exist. I just didn't look far enough.
I knew the "heavy duty" three speed was dropped for '72 as all of the big cars starting sporting automatics as standard equipment in 1972. I looked under Ms and Ns for the 3-speed floor shift and of course saw none. But there it is, big as life, W39 Floor shifter for the 3-speed manual. That is just a shifter option, same trans either way.
My apologies.
I knew the "heavy duty" three speed was dropped for '72 as all of the big cars starting sporting automatics as standard equipment in 1972. I looked under Ms and Ns for the 3-speed floor shift and of course saw none. But there it is, big as life, W39 Floor shifter for the 3-speed manual. That is just a shifter option, same trans either way.
My apologies.
May 18th, 2009, 06:41 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,498
is this a great site or what! i am addicted to it and love the way things work to better everyone's knowledge. i have learned so much in just a short time on here. i wish i got a computer years ago.
May 19th, 2009, 06:02 AM
#22
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
Absolutely! Couldn't have said it better. And this is a reminder that I/we need to keep adding to the Olds Wiki site to document the results of this type of exchange.
May 19th, 2009, 06:55 AM
#23
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
The GM information tends to contradict yours, but on the other hand, GM was and still is notorious for making changes during the model year; discontinuing some options and upgrading others. No, I'm not an expert on Olds. Never claimed to be. The only point of this is to look at all the possibilities.
Due to this uncertainty and lack of records, some say that "anything was possible from the factory". That is simply not true. Yes there are anomalies there, but wholesale "anything goes" just didn't happen.
Sources:
SPECS models and prices booklets (updated copies made during the model year)
Dealer Show Room Product Manual (one issue very early model year)
Chassis Service Manual (one issue very early model year)
Service Guild and Technical Bulletins (mid-year updates)
Inspectors Manuals
Various other minor sales/dealer/factory sources.
So a lot really goes into the research end of things.
Oh, and just to sum up the answer to the original question:
"Did olds offer a 3 speed Manual on the floor with console and bucket seats in 1972? I think the 3 speed code was m14. I think I found a convertible that has this.
Tim72"
The answer is yes, yes, and yes. But the option code for the 3-speed manual floor shifter is W39, not M-14. (That was easy!)
May 22nd, 2009, 01:31 PM
#24
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Allen, I can't stress enough the importance of .......Researching ....more than just finding one source of information. Sources:
SPECS models and prices booklets (updated copies made during the model year)
Dealer Show Room Product Manual (one issue very early model year)
Chassis Service Manual (one issue very early model year)
Service Guild and Technical Bulletins (mid-year updates)
Inspectors Manuals
Various other minor sales/dealer/factory sources.
So a lot really goes into the research end of things.
Oh, and just to sum up the answer to the original question:
"Did olds offer a 3 speed Manual on the floor with console and bucket seats in 1972? I think the 3 speed code was m14. I think I found a convertible that has this.
Tim72"
The answer is yes, yes, and yes. But the option code for the 3-speed manual floor shifter is W39, not M-14. (That was easy!)
SPECS models and prices booklets (updated copies made during the model year)
Dealer Show Room Product Manual (one issue very early model year)
Chassis Service Manual (one issue very early model year)
Service Guild and Technical Bulletins (mid-year updates)
Inspectors Manuals
Various other minor sales/dealer/factory sources.
So a lot really goes into the research end of things.
Yup, totally agree. Same sources I use, with updates through the model year....
"Did olds offer a 3 speed Manual on the floor with console and bucket seats in 1972? I think the 3 speed code was m14. I think I found a convertible that has this.
Tim72"
The answer is yes, yes, and yes. But the option code for the 3-speed manual floor shifter is W39, not M-14. (That was easy!)
Right again, just like I said in my other post
Good to know we're both on the same page. Cheers!
October 11th, 2012, 08:53 PM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: KANSAS CITY, KS
Posts: 2,030
i owned a 71 cutlass convert was yellow, with a green bucket seat console and 3 speed manual...really nice car..horrible color combo..
i just parted a 70 cutlass S this summer...3 on th tree car with air
i just parted a 70 cutlass S this summer...3 on th tree car with air
September 20th, 2017, 08:33 AM
#30
KELLY442
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Orlando
Posts: 3
3 speed m14 Muncie in a 1969 Olds 442
Just to add to the conversation, as odd as it may seem, in 1969 the 442 with the optional 3 speed Muncie (M14) with a Hurst floor shifter is a great package. 3 speeds is less driver work and the torque of the 400 engine doesn't need the first gear of 4. Here is a build sheet of my 442 with the M14 , console and buckets options.
September 21st, 2017, 05:31 PM
#32
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,607
Up until the early 1970s, the base transmission on most of the A-body cars was a column shifted three speed Saginaw. During that period, the base trans on the 442 was a floor-shifted Dearborn (read: Ford) three speed manual. The base interior on the 442 was bucket seats. The console was an extra cost option.
Last edited by 66-3X2 442; September 21st, 2017 at 05:33 PM.
September 21st, 2017, 06:09 PM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,455
Just to add to the conversation, as odd as it may seem, in 1969 the 442 with the optional 3 speed Muncie (M14) with a Hurst floor shifter is a great package. 3 speeds is less driver work and the torque of the 400 engine doesn't need the first gear of 4. Here is a build sheet of my 442 with the M14 , console and buckets options.
September 21st, 2017, 06:20 PM
#34
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,607
I've been saying this for years. I had a 70 442 with factory 3 speed Hurst floor shift, non console, bucket seat car in high school (77-79). The 3 speed and 455 combo put a lot of whoop'in on big block 4 speed cars. I thought it was a Saginaw but I'm not sure. I have no idea what rear end it had but it was crazy fast.
September 21st, 2017, 09:50 PM
#37
Phantom Phixer
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Apopka, FL
Posts: 4,660
I did a little research in the 1972 Olds parts book into " heavy duty " 3 speeds.;
Group 4.003 Transmission , Syncromesh (complete)
65 thru 69 F-85 3 spd H.D. std. trans. #9793425
Footnote ; 1965 F-85 2nd type , fully syncronized
70-71 F-85 3spd S.T. H.D. #3952657 (floorshift) (Muncie)
72 F-85 3 spd S.T. #3974484
The first trans listed is the "Dearborn" trans , built by Phord. AKA "Toploader"
Probably the strongest 3 speed ever made . Pontiac shared this trans with Olds and Buick .
The second trans listed for 70-71 was a H.D. Muncie .
The 72 trans was not listed as heavy duty .
The popularity of H.D. 3 speeds back in the day was with the "under 25 "owners.
By the mid sixties , insurance companies were noticing a higher loss ratio with 4 speed equipped cars with "youthful" drivers .
They jacked insurance rates for 4 speeds driven by under 25 's sky high .
A "loophole" around this was to order a 3 speed .
Group 4.003 Transmission , Syncromesh (complete)
65 thru 69 F-85 3 spd H.D. std. trans. #9793425
Footnote ; 1965 F-85 2nd type , fully syncronized
70-71 F-85 3spd S.T. H.D. #3952657 (floorshift) (Muncie)
72 F-85 3 spd S.T. #3974484
The first trans listed is the "Dearborn" trans , built by Phord. AKA "Toploader"
Probably the strongest 3 speed ever made . Pontiac shared this trans with Olds and Buick .
The second trans listed for 70-71 was a H.D. Muncie .
The 72 trans was not listed as heavy duty .
The popularity of H.D. 3 speeds back in the day was with the "under 25 "owners.
By the mid sixties , insurance companies were noticing a higher loss ratio with 4 speed equipped cars with "youthful" drivers .
They jacked insurance rates for 4 speeds driven by under 25 's sky high .
A "loophole" around this was to order a 3 speed .
Last edited by Charlie Jones; September 21st, 2017 at 10:00 PM.
September 23rd, 2017, 06:48 AM
#38
Escape From The Ordinary
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,873
September 23rd, 2017, 10:05 AM
#39
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,259
The Saginaw trans was NEVER factory installed in a 442, at least not after Feb 1965 when the Toploader was released. The 1965-69 cars got the Dearborn (don't call it a Ford...) toploader three speed. The 1970-up cars got the new Muncie HD three speed.
September 23rd, 2017, 11:13 AM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,607
