Observed this on the OCA facebook page today. It appears the controversy is settled now, with some good defending of honesty by members of OCA and here. What I have noticed is, as clones become more accepted and prevalent, that there are "soft attempts" by people to sell clones as the real thing. In this post, the seller put an ad up for a 442 W-30 convertible for $69k. He also advertised it on some other pages.

People immediately saw the scam and requested proof. It's an incorrect clone, like the red fenderwells, and the jig was up when it was revealed to be a K VIN car. The seller played ignorant and nice and has edited the listing to say clone, and has left the price at $69k, presumably to let the action die and to try for a sucker later.

What's interesting about this to me, and I lack the correct words for it, is how this is a "soft fraud," as opposed to a "hard fraud" (these are just terms I am coining.) A "hard fraud" to me, would be a VIN and cowl tag swap from a wrecked W-30, a nuts and bolts perfectly correct restoration, fraudulent VIN derivatives on the powertrain, and a high price to match. Very illegal, hard to catch, and completely busted if indeed caught. This "soft fraud" car, on the other hand, is a plausibly deniable car with W-30 parts bolted on, but an obviously not a W-30's VIN, so, if the heat got put on (which it did) the seller can claim ignorance and run away. But, if no one notices, he could find someone who's too hungry and get that price which is a good deal for a W-30, but a bad deal for a clone. This fits with the slimy sort of feel you get from some salesmen who know just exactly how to say something without actually saying it and let you sell the car to yourselves.

Good work to our dudes. Seller should be banned from the groups.

 

Thanks for bringing this up.

Good analysis, discussion, and conclusions.

 

In some ways the "soft fraud" is even less morally defensible as it allows the seller to distance himself from his bogus claims when caught. At least "hard fraud" requires a commitment to the premise for which I can summon up a small and grudging amount of respect.

 

Tribute, clone, replica, re-creation, etc. (and half a dozen other words) mean "FAKE". An opportunity to buy "Cubic Zirconia" for the price of a DIAMOND.

 

Plausible deniability is not a virtue. In any case, the wing on a convertible (and a 1972, no less) should have been the first clue.

 

I don’t have a problem with people selling clones, it’s how they are selling and marketing them.
If it’s a clone it should be very visible in the in the title and wording so there is nothing to hide or interpret for the buyer or viewers. Be up front with the buyer and if the buyer wants to buy the cloned car, so be it. They knew what they were buying. It’s the slippery slimy people passing clones, fakes, off as the real deal that need to be shut down. The sad part there is usually a lot of money on the table for these sales. My 2 cents

 

What about rebodying a car?
You have the original body with vin and data plate...but the car is wasted with rust or accident damage.
You swap everything onto a clean body.

Given that every other part is correct(including the frame)....what say ye?

 

I've learned to just not talk about this topic.

 

Firstly, one is upfront that it has been done, but that may result in crucifixion from 3rd parties.

After that, notwithstanding Joe's comment above, it is my understanding that Federal law allows removal of both VIN and cowl tag for "repair." What "repair" is is undefined, and so all I can do is present two hypotheticals:

A: A cowl tag and vin tag are sourced from a W-30, and a car is assembled from loose parts with restamped derivatives, and the tag is riveted to the new body.
B: A rusted, complete W-30 repaired with a donor body. The body is from one car, everything else to the nut and bolt is from the W-30.

A is fraud, B is in the eye of the beholder.

 

There is a difference between a clone and a rebody. GMPD sold complete body in white shells for this purpose. What's the difference between replacing a body shell or a firewall, If replacing a body shell is wrong why did GM sell them,?

 

This is correct. The federal citation is 18 U.S.C. § 511. The pertinent language is when "... reasonably necessary for the repair." Note that this only applies to the VIN tag. The cowl tag does not contain VIN information and is not specifically covered by law. Also, note that this is FEDERAL law. State laws may be more restrictive. For example, in Maryland, one can interpret the language of the state law to forbid changing VIN derivative stamps in addition to the VIN tag, which means that engine, trans, and chassis swaps are technically illegal. I'm not aware of anyone ever being prosecuted for this, but that is how the law could be interpreted.

 

I think one of the dangers is when the second or third owner sells the car. If they are caught, they can always say they were told it was real when they bought it. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

 

Koda...I was in fact thinking more about scenario B. -More in line with saving a car rather than recreating one.
Afterall...bodies have part #s.

Joe... so basically there's no law stating that data tag swaps are illegal...and the VIN # isn't connected to a data tag...so.....

 

I believe a VIN removal and re-installation must be completed by a Government agency(State Police) only, for it to be legal

 

That is not true. At a state level it may be, but not at a federal level.

 

Nobody is touching Mike comment.. 66-3x2 442.. you could buy the complete body in 66. If we only knew how many rare cars have been rebodied in the car restoration business, we would all be rolling our eyes inward. Always an interesting subject.

 

Correct. Do the math.

Of course, the act of swapping the VIN tag is not illegal by itself. Federal law specifically says that altering or swapping the VIN tag WITH INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD is the crime. Body Coddington famously got in trouble for this because he was putting old tags on brand new street rods specifically to circumvent California emissions laws. That was the fraud part.

 

Sensible discussion as generally true here.

I’ve no problems with clones so long as seller discloses. When they’re vague or lie, reboot, or replace the VIN, well that’s the other side of the bright line for me.

Good news for us big car (88/98/Starfire) people and probably the Toro people, this really isn’t much of a problem in our world. Or, well at least that I’ve heard of…

If I were a Toro guy and some one sold me a basic 1966 model with added deluxe front & rear door openers and electric windows, I’d probably thank the builder!

For the record, my 1966 Starfire was delivered to me with a blue 1970 era 455. I wasn’t bothered at all since it was an olds big block, though I did repaint the engine proper 1966 red. The blue engine paint still peeks out here & there after 28 years. I personally added power windows, power door locks, power trunk lock, autronic eye and cobbled up some 6 way seats. If/when I go to sell, I’ll disclose all my additions with no small amount of pride and hope that the new owner enjoys the toys as much as I have.

Cheers
Chris

 

Fortunately for our chosen brand in this hobby, there aren't any 1 million dollar muscle cars, so the amount of money one would make off of buying a rusty W-30 and a good original Cutlass and doing a survivor style swap isn't really worth the effort. I might be able to get a rusty W-30 all there for 20, a good donor for 15, and sell a "survivor W-30" from the two of them for 60, but I am only going to be making 25 large for the manual labor of putting it together. I would want several hundred large for committing that kind of fraud, I would think.

 

On a 65 Shelby, there’s vins on the front shock tower aprons and a tag on the door. If those areas are rusty, and you replace them. Is that car now a rebody? If you change the rusty door on a F150, and swap the vin plate over. Is it a rebody? Or do you swap the entire door onto a new truck. No longer a rebody.

Corvettes had them on the steering column tube. You swap the column into another car it’s now a rebody.

These cars are just piles of metal. Why do we act like replacing every piece of rusty metal except that holy metal under a plate is not rebody. Or using a nice rust free body is. Or why we even care. Remember nobody freaks about every part on a car being reproduction EXCEPT the body.

 

What do you do with this? Dynacorn? Find a body? Piece it together with individual panels? What is it when it’s done? Is it no longer a Camaro SS396? Is it a clone since nothing is original to the car anymore?

 

I dunno, but at least the wheels give it some value!

…

 

The body tag is obviously optional. In fact, by the 80s, they were held on with hex head screws, and many cars built in Arlington during the 1985 model year did not even come with a factory body plate. But Michigan plants still used them. The reason I was given by a GM Arlington employee was that the information was on the trunk SPID decal by 1984 and didn't need them. But if they were there, great, if not, big deal. But some plants never took that step of getting rid of the body plate in '85. Fisher had to have some reason. GM is so weird sometimes. From what I understand, Arlington resumed body plates in the 1986 model year.

If you're spending that sorta coin on a car, you better know what you're getting. So do your due diligence. if you're not up on what to look for, go find someone you trust that does.

 

It's the Theseus Paradox.
The Ship of Theseus, is a paradox and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object after having all of its original components replaced over time, typically one after the other.

 

Short answer. It’s not.

Long answer. If said object is taken someplace nobody knows the “story” attached to it. Is it now a brand object? When a 1970 W30 was new, it wasnt collectible. Rare. Or even wanted. If they were every single one of them would’ve been stored in a warehouse and never used. For fear of damaging its value. Today they are sought after, rare and extremely valuable. And hardly ever used for transportation Only thing that changed is the story that’s tell about them.

 

Ask my doctor.