sammy

Was the 455/400, with the w25 hood and OAI setup available on the 1970 Cutass S.....?

Thanks,
Ted

orange442

Yes.

Diego

What evidence do you have that makes you say yes? Because I'm willing to bet it wasn't available because, unless there was a 4bbl. introduced mid-year, the only 455 available was the 2bbl. and there was no OAI for that as far as I know.

orange442

Not looking for a pissing contest here, but what evidence do you have, other than a bet, that it was not available? The 70 SX changed to a a 4 bbl carb early in 1970 so I am sure if it was available in the Supreme body then it would be available in the S. This, in turn, would make the OAI option just another check on the list. Yes, I could be wrong, but until I see factory literature that says differently, this is what I choose to believe.

Diego

No, there's no pissing contest when discussing facts and trivia.

Since we're on the same page, let me say this: I do agree with your logic, but until the middle of the year, the 4bbl. was not available on the SX. Up to that point, the 455-2 was the biggest engine available on the Cutlass S. And based on this bulletin, I don't see the 455-4 becoming available on the Cutlass S.

Of course, there could be another bulletin that suggests otherwise, but I haven't seen it, and the production info I've seen from the GM Heritage Center doesn't show the 455-4 to be available on the 3600 series.

oldzzy

Ted, wouldn't it be easy just to check the vin on the block to the vin on the car? I see the car in question lol. I see that the drivers fender is from a 71-72

Allan R

Ted, the W25 and OAI was available on any of the 1970 Cutlass S models that had 4 bbl carbs. That info is straight out of dealer ordering guide. Although Diegos bulletin doesn't show the 455 4 bbl offering in its text, I don't consider that to be the bible of engine option order for 1970 Cutlass S. Although I will concede that if someone wanted a performance car in 1970 the obvious choice would be the 442.

How important is the correctness of engine and options to your build?

oldsmobiledave

About 10 years ago there was a 1970 Cutlass S for sale in Saskatoon. It was a factory 455 4bbl T400 car with GM of Canada documentation. It did not have OAI though.

joe_padavano

The L33 320 HP 455 was available in the Cutlass S, sedans, and wagons for the 1970 model year. Here are the pages from the 1970 Powertrains booklet.

sammy

Haha, you caught me Shane...ya, that is the one...going to look at it on Saturday. He has the correct fender, and says it is the original engine.i will check numbers for sure, just wanted to have as much imfo before I go to look at it.

Actually, looking at buying one Allan. The OAI setup is not on the car, just the w25 hood....prob added.
PW, console car....pretty good shape

Diego

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't W25 and OAI one and the same for 1970?

In any case, there's no evidence the 455-4 was available for the Cutlass S that I've found.

sammy

I was referring to one can have a w25 hood without the actual air induction system on the breather....

Diego

If you ordered the W-25, you got the breather.

sammy

Yes, but on this particular car the complete OAI set up is not there....just the hood...

joe_padavano

It was not uncommon for the plastic adapter to get separated from the car back in the day, especially if the owner swapped on an aftermarket open element air cleaner. Kinda negated the whole point of O.A.I., however...

oldsmobiledave

I wish I had the documents for that Saskatoon car but I do not. My 1st Olds was a 1970 Cutlass Supreme with the L-33 2 bbl 455. Also rare but not the 4bbl equipped car that you are looking for. I wonder where that car went?

Mr Shifty Sidney

I found the following information in the 70 Inspectors manual:

The W-25 hood option was only available on the 442, Cutlass Coupe and the Cutlass Post Coupe.
The W-25 hood option was only available with the L74 (350 4bbl) engine on the Cutlass Coupe and Cutlass Post Coupe. (455 4bbl was standard on 442)

Of course the W-25 was part of the W-30 and W-31 options. L-33 was the 455 2bbl engine, the L-31 was the 455 4bbl engine.

Don W

Diego

Either the Inspector's Manual is wrong, or you're reading it wrong.

For one thing, why didn't you mention the Cutlass S? Probably because that's what you probably meant - there were no two-door Cutlasses in 1970.

And what about the F85? We know the W-31 was available on that model.

Production records show the W25 being optional only on the 4-4-2 and the Cutlass S.

joe_padavano

This is correct. The W-25 option was only available with the L74 on the Cutlass models because the L33 455 was a 2BBL motor and thus the O.A.I. air cleaner could not be used. Back to the original point of this thread, there was no 4BBL 455 factory available in those cars in the 1970 model year.

Mr Shifty Sidney

The 70 inspectors guide does not list a Cutlass "S". There was a "S" name in 70, but not a series. The inspector guide only list series. The 3677 series being the Cutlass V-8 Club (post) Coupe and 3687 series being the Cutlass V-8 Hardtop Coupe. These 2 Cutlass series along with the 442 were the only series showing the W-25 as an option. I assumed that if I listed the series number not everyone would know what they were. I was trying not to make it complicated.

So after all this what exactly was a 1970 Cutlass "S"? I never thought about it before. I would guess a 2 door in the Cutlass series. I wonder if it had to be a V-8?

As stated the W-25 option was not available on the F-85. The W-31 was an option on the 3277 series, which is a V-8 F-85. The W-25 was part of the W-31 option. So by opting for the W-31, you got the W-25.

Don W

vette442

Correct on the above. It basically says that the W-25 was not available on F-85s (except W-31s) or Supreme hardtops or Supreme convertibles in 1970. Any fastback Cutlass - base or S trim level, post or hardtop - could be equipped with the W-25 setup.

Presumably any W-25 equipped 1970 Cutlass would be a 350 4 barrel car since only 2 barrel 455s were available in the Cutlass (3677 and 3687) line.

Terry

Diego

Let's be clear - these are the cars that could have the W-25:

F-85: only with the W-31 package
Cutlass S: as an option on the 350/310 or with the W-31 package
4-4-2: As an option on the base motor or with the W-30 package.

vette442

And Y-74 Supreme convertible Pace Car replicas. Nobody mentioned those yet. ; ). Rallye 350s would fit under the Cutlass/Cutlass S category.

Mr Shifty Sidney

I think we are all on the same page but would still like to add a few more things to be more factual.
The W-25 OPTION was availabe on the series that I listed in above post. All are coupes or conv. No 4 dr or wagons. The W-25 setup was included with other options like the W-31, W-30, Pace cars, and Rallye 350s as Terry noted.
How about this Diego?
These are the cars that could have the W-25 OPTION.
Now, what exactly is an "S"? I will have to get my brochures out and look through them.

Don W

joe_padavano

Sorry, Diego, but no. The factory only showed availability as a separate option. The W-25 was NOT available to be ordered in conjunction with W-30 or W-31 as a separate RPO because it was already included. That's why you could not order an F-85 with W-25. You could only order an F-85 with W-31, which included W-25. Note this page from the 1970 W-Machines brochure:

"AVAILABLE On all 4-4-2 and Cutlass S 4-bbl models. INCLUDED in W-30, W-31 packages."

Diego

That's what I said!

Maybe I wasn't so clear after all? :-)

67442nut

What about the SX?

Diego

The production records only show W-25 as an option for the 4-4-2 and the Cutlass S.

Allan R

SX is a different car available option only on the Cutlass Supreme, not Cutlass S

sammy

I would assume that the w32 performance package available on the Supreme did not include w25 OAI performance option.....

oldsmobiledave

Correct. The only way to get OAI on a Supreme including SX optioned cars was as a dealer installed accessory (never as factory installed).

sammy

The owner of the car claims it to be a 4bbl 455(L31)...original to the car. I do not know if he has any paperwork, but is there a carb number that would be specific to the L31 engine for 1970 that I should be aware of??..I will check the engine ID pad, if I can see it with the VIN......
Usual question...plz do not rake me over the coals...but is it an uncommon car to find....notice I did not say "rare":

oldzzy

A little tip for seeing the VIN pad on the block is, stick your cell phone down to where the pad is, and take a pic with the flash on. The flash really highlights the #'s

Allan R

Far as I know the 70 4bbl QJet would be 7040257 if the car is AT. 7040253 if it's MT.

Shane- that's a brilliant (no pun intended) idea! Never thought of that all these years.

orange442

I believe 7040251 would be correct for non-442 applications.

To answer your question, it apparently would be a very uncommon car to find because most of the replies above say it could not have existed. So, even if you do get it and verify part numbers, VIN match, etc. the naysayers will still say it never existed if you do not have ironclad bulletproof paperwork or documentation of some kind.

This is exactly how I look at the block numbers on a/c cars specifically. This is much easier than a mirror and a flashlight.

joe_padavano

It is all too common to find a one-of-none car that has some "back door" or "special order" story attached to it, but never any hard documentation to back it up.

Usually these cars end up at Barrett Jackson...

Diego

What makes you say this?

At this point, the paperwork that we collectively have on hand suggests the car wasn't built.

Tell me which scenario has the best/least chance of happening?

- Owner is wrong/full of crap about the motor
- We don't have that special bulletin that announces the availability of the motor in a Cutlass S
- This is a factory freak not listed in production tallies

Considering the car is in Canada, I think a phone call to GM of Canada for their invoice service is in order. But there are plenty of people who make claims about cars that usually end up being false (a great exception here: http://classiccougarcommunity.com/un...nt-exist-does/), and I don't see any reason to think differently about this Olds based on the evidence.