hi all, have idea ,was looking for input , it has to do with power window relay, in my manual it says that the master switch on the d/s door can by pass relay to operate all the windows withe out the ignition key on,now since i can not find a relay , is there a reason i just cant wire it direct? any input or help on this would be appreciated , thanks very much in advance ,it is on 65 starfire , will.

 

Got a wiring diagram?

Without either a diagram or personal knowledge of the model, I'd be reluctant to comment...

- Eric

 

I imagine you could wire it direct but there's a reason they used a relay. It keeps all the current out of the switch and isolates it to the relay. This helps to keep the switch alive for a long time. Especially for something that's drawing a fair amount of amps like a window motor. Put four motors all at once and it's even worse.

 

^^^ What he said.

The whole reason to use a relay is to reduce the current flow through the switch and the smaller diameter wires leading to the switch. As an example of why you DON'T want to eliminate the relay, GM did exactly that on the power seat wiring in my 86 Caprice wagon. Prior years used a relay, but apparently the 50 cent cost savings per car was too great to ignore. Unfortunately GM did NOT upgrade the contacts in the switch, with the result that the contacts burn out from the high current arcing. I'm constantly taking that switch apart to file the contacts (replacement switches are not available).

 

In 65 the purpose of the relay may have been more to allow the PW circuit to be switched with the ignition switch without the PW currents going through the ignition switch itself.
Door window switches probably had to handle the full motor currents though.

If this is how yours works, you could jump the relay contacts and be able to run the windows even with the key off.

 

Will, I just searched around, and I can't find a diagram or description of the power window system in a '65. I'm assuming it's in the Fisher Body Manual, which I don't have access to for that year. If you would care to post scans of your information, that would help to assure that you are getting the most accurate advice possible.

ASSUMING that your description of what the manual says is accurate ("it says that the master switch on the d/s door can by pass relay to operate all the windows withe out the ignition key on"), that would be expected to mean that, as Rob says, there is a relay in the circuit (possibly also incorporating a circuit breaker) that allows full current to flow from the battery to the window controls without passing through the already-busy ignition switch.

In most cars, that is all there is: turn ignition switch to ACC or RUN, window relay clicks on, windows can be operated.

It sounds as though your car is supposed to have a feature (I am not familiar with '65s) in which a switch in the armrest allows you to bypass the ignition switch and operate the windows even with the switch off.

If this is indeed the case, then the armrest switch and the relay would be wired in parallel (drawing current from the battery, just as the relay does), so that the windows will operate when either one of them (or both of them) is closed.

In answer to your question, "now since i can not find a relay , is there a reason i just cant wire it direct?" I would say,
1. Find the relay. It must be there, or there is an empty plug where it was removed.
Don't go wiring around parts just because you "can't find" them. This causes future owners to become homicidal.

2. What do you mean, "wire it direct?" If you have a switch on your armrest that allows you to use the windows at any time, so long as it is in the right position, then what is the problem?
I have tried to come up with alternate interpretations of this phrase that would lead to a different response, but cannot currently articulate any.

Sorry.

See what I mean about a diagram being helpful?

- Eric

 

i thank all for there input , am trying to get a pic of diagram,that is clear enough, scanner is not working at the moment , will be checking it out tonight .will do some more testing ,i have the relay ,the wire inside on the coil had fallen off the base ,so i sodered back on ,it clicks when i put power to it ,but no power to any of the window plugs, also i have not got new window motors yet ,so at the moment i have none that work, all dry and rusted,plan on getting a new one next week , will have something to work with, thanks again, will.

 

well went out and found a broken ground on my back harness., now i have power to both rear windows, no motors yet.and i have power to the power seats. i have power coming into the relay,as i said power going out to the rear, but no driver door or pass door,also i was mistaken on the override thing for the windows by passing the master switch,it was an emergency type thing ,but i don,t have it any way. i guess i have no choice but to keep looking for the relay that i need ,i am going to bring one of my motors to this place that rebuilds starters and alternators, see what he thinks , and how much,thanks all.will.

 

Although I do not know the specifics of exactly how this vehicle is set up, in general, you can use any $4-10, SPST, 30-40A "foglight" relay from the auto parts store and it will work great.

- Eric

 

Yes... but...

The power seat and window circuits usually require a special dual relay since they swap both leads going to the motor to reverse direction. The common parts store relays are usually SPST (four terminal) or at best SPDT (five terminal). You would need to use two of these relays to replicate the function of the factory relay. Still not a big deal and much cheaper that an exact replacement (for a part that's unseen), but you DO need the wiring diagram to get it right.

 

Those bi-directional field-coil-motor relays for the seats (did the windows use them, too?) and the '71-'75/6 B-body tops are a PITA.

I can provide (have provided) a diagram showing how to substitue commonly available (and very long-lasting) relays instead - worked great for my top!

- Eric

 

was reading some of the posts on different 4 and 5 prong relays,this is a pic of my relay if it helps at all, still looking for a wiring diagram, thanks again to all, will.

 

Does it look something like this?



http://corvetteparts.com/item/relay-...dow-1968-1978/

 

By the way, the number of prongs does NOT indicate how the relay is wired internally. In the case of this three prong relay, the case is ground, which would be the fourth or even the fifth prong, depending on how the relay is wired internally.

 

they are exactley like mine , wish i could find some ,will.

 

Which I why I gave you the link right below those pictures. $23 each. They are used in Corvettes, so they are readily available from the repro world.

 

here is what i found,hope it helps ,will.

 

thanks so much was so excited when i saw it was the same , did not even see the link ,thanks a million ,will.

 

OK, this is a simple SPST relay. As MDechanic noted above, you CAN use a readily available parts store relay. These relays have terminals labeled like this:



Connect terminal 86 to ground, 85 to wire 11 on your diagram, 30 to your 14 and 87 to your 15. Do not use 87A if you get a five terminal relay. Or, buy the Corvette repro relay.

 

Exactly what Joe said.

A very simple SPST power relay, just like all of the ones at the auto parts store, and at the usual mail order places, like Amazon.

Your choice: $23 plus shipping, for something that will plug right in, or about $5 for something where you'll have to snap the terminals out of the plastic plug body (not hard, and you can put them back later) and then plug each one onto the correct terminal of the relay, using his instructions.

Good luck!

- Eric

 

for the extra effort on my relay problem,its over ,thank you all , will.

 

well as the plot thickens ,i got a new motor from fusicks, a new relay from davies corvette, still not working !tested motor out side of car ,worked fine .hooked every thing up,nothing,the relay would make a clicking noise ,it had power coming in acording to tester ,but no power at the other two terminals,so i unpluged the relay ,and made a jumper to skip relay,got power through the master window switch,all the way to motor, but the motor will not work,so i took the window regulator and the motor out , sanded down the spots where the bolts attach, so there would be a good ground,put back on ,still nothing,some times when i am using tester and touch the relay in the wrong spot, i hear a click some where else ,like there is another relay ,then i have nothing for about 3 minutes ,then i have power at the relay again,any ideas, thanks ,will.

 

Sounds like something is making a dead short and tripping the automatically-resetting circuit breaker, which I believe is on the firewall, maybe just beneath the brake booster.

- Eric

 

i found a ground that was not connected to the brake pedal framing, when i hooked that up ,i finally got power going through and out of the relay,i have power right to the end plug where it plugs into the motor it self, 12.5 volts.i took the back off the master switch and cleaned and crimped all the female ends ,that helped , but when i plug in to motor , nothing , but if i take set of jumping cables and hook to battery and then directly to window motor , bolted to the door , it workes fine ,help!!!!! thanks. will.

 

hi, something else i noticed ,when i hook to motor, ,i lose the volt reading of 12.5, but hen i unplug from motor ,it comes back , strange , thanks ,will.

 

willj,
Where did you find those?
I have combed through the 1972 (my car year) Assembly and Chassis Service Manuals, to no avail.
The only mention of electric windows at all is the on the fuse panel (section 12 - page 100)

 

I just saw the pics and double checked. The images appear to be taken from the Fisher Body Manual. I looked at my OEM copy of the 72 Fisher Body Manual and the diagrams that look very similar appear in the Electrical Section (15) starting on 15-1. The schematic for Power window circuits (Figure 15-10) is on page 15-10.

 

THANK YOU Allen R.
I had not noticed the note on wildaboutcars.com:

"From 1966 and forward, Fisher Body Manuals are not filed by Brand, but are found in the General Motors Section of the Technical Journals."

They don't have 1972, but they do have 1970, which I will peruse.

 

Good enough, I didn't use their site for this information, it was from my personal references. Glad you'll be able to find what you need now! I think the basic setup for 70-72 electrical will be similar if not identical.