442much

I was watching a show the other night on what the world would be like had **** Germany won WWII. Right after that was a show on the American Civil War. (I love history). I started to think what would the USA be like today, had the CSA won the civil war? Sure slavery would probably be abolished anyway by today, but we know the war wasn't fought to free the Black man, that was just a by-product.

Not looking to make this political, just wondering what Americans, Northerners and Southerners on here, seriously think about that. In your opinion, would it be better or worse? It would be different. What do you think those differences might be compared to how it is now?

72 cutlass455

Think it would depend on your race as the whites would hold the power. I see a country much like South Africa use to be, where separation is the norm. And because of the minority status there would not be the need to cede power. I would not want to live here. On another thought what would have happen if Benny Arnold had been allowed to take Montreal could have changed a few lifes.

Jamesbo

I don't want to get too political here but It's interesting to me that the Confederate Constitution allowed for line item veto. There goes the pork barrel politics.

Allan R

Ken, it's really a moot point. The CSA didn't win and neither did Hitler.

What if Japan had developed the Atomic bomb first?
What if the Russians had landed the first man on the moon?
What if John Kennedy hadn't been assassinated?
What if Vietnam had been fought like a conventional war?
What if 911 hadn't happened?
What if North Korea had won the cold war?
What if Castro was pro American?
What if South America didn't have drug cartels?
What if Pierre Elliott had been Conservative?
What if Jack Layton had become Prime Minister?
What if Princess Diana hadn't died?
What if Prince Dumbo Charles was King?

To many what ifs that anyone and everyone can answer and be totally right because it just doesn't have any changed outcome. You can't go back and change history, you create it with what you do now. I love history too, but you learn from what happened and go forward. Debate can be healthy but also frustrating depending on perspectives.

Now suppose the founding fathers of Canadian federation decided that it would just be easier to join the US instead of becoming Canada? Although your question may pose interesting (and possibly dangerous) discussion, I see it as basically a thought process to pass time. You bored of vacation already? If you are you're going to really hate retirement. Maybe I should just come over there and finish this wit ya over a tall ice Coke.

Oh, last for the best.
What if you had been born as a girl? Or had no interest in cars???

hookem horns

It's all speculation and fiction, so check out this alt history novel I recently read that follows this theme.

http://www.amazon.com/Company-Dead-D...7289446&sr=1-1

redoldsman

What if Linda Vaughn had never become Miss Hurst Shifter.

MDchanic

I've said for years that the biggest mistake in US history was for Honest Abe to fight the Civil War.

If the South had been allowed to secede, we would have fought a bit anyway, over the fate of Texas and other Southwestern territories, but in the end I think we would have had a North America with three flavors (flavours to some of you) of Anglo democracy instead of two. It would have been the CSA, then the USA, then Canada in order of Latitude and of conservatism and of religious fervor. Instead of being required to pass through a North that was required by the Dredd Scott decision to hand them back if caught, escaped slaves would be immediately free upon crossing the Mason-Dixon. The main reason for slavery's existence was the lack of mechanization - as technology improved, it would have been far cheaper to harvest using a few hands with mechanical equipment instead of many hands. Because of this, as the 20th century evolved, slaves would have been freed in droves ("Git outta here! Scram! We cain't feed ya no more!"), and many would have come North for jobs, in essentially the same pattern as the Great Migration that actually occurred. Slavery would have been outlawed sooner or later, but only after it had become essentially an anachronistic remnant. Because of this, there would probably have been less racial animosity, as the changes would have been more gradual and given people time to become accustomed to them - it would have been there, but have been less virulent, I believe. When World War II rolled around, all of North America would have fought together against the Axis, as all of North America actually did - it would have just been three countries instead of two. In the modern era, the US would have been friendly with the CSA, just as we are friendly with our former enemies Great Britain and Canada, and the shameful chapter in history that was slavery would be taught as such in all schools, North and South.

- Eric

aliensatemybuick

You call yourself a moderator? This thread can lead to nothing good.

Allan R

Now THAT's funny!

What if Ransom Eli Olds had decided to become a banker or barber?
What if Gastogne Chevrolet had joined forces with the Dodge Bros?

There's a million what if's.

Love that book link hookem horns. I love a good story much as the next guy. Fantasy is a great read.

Highwayman

There would have been fewer Oldsmobiles and more orange Dodge Chargers.

Linda Vaughn would have been called Daisy.

Jamesbo

I'm not real sure how eliminating "line item veto" could offend anyone.

aliensatemybuick

Way to miss the point.

My mistake for even clicking on a thread with such an ambiguous title. Hey, WHAT IF they had a site about Oldsmobiles and nobody talked about them on it?

By the way, this was done as a movie (a lousy movie):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/

Y'all want to talk about this stupid sh*t, why not do it on the IMDB message board for the movie.

slantflat

Hm, Aliens, that's why it's called:

The Clubhouse Place to chat about whatever's on your mind - doesn't have to be car related. NO POLITICS OR RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION ALLOWED.

You just like being the instigator, don't you. I'd say the moderator has well under control anything he's going to comment on. Sheesh.

MDchanic

There is a difference between discussing history and politics.

Historic speculation can be apolitical, so long as political value is not attached to it.

I will admit that in my earlier post I expressed a personal belief that slavery was bad.
I apologize if that offended anyone.

- Eric

aliensatemybuick

Wow, props for the anti-slavery stand.

Like I said, my mistake. Still, a warning would have been nice. I shall unsubscribe from the thread (so as not to get any more E-mail reminders of its existence) and simply assume in the future that all threads that don't explicitly state their subject are about subjects as likely to descend into race-baiting and southern-bashing as this one.

lshlsh2

There is an author I like called Robert Conroy who writes alternate history. I have really enjoyed his books.
Some titles:
1901 Germany invades New York
1862 Britain comes in the civil war on the southern side
1942 Japan invades Hawaii
1945 We have to invade Japan
1946 We go at it with Russia after defeating Germany
Himmlar's War Hitler is killed by a stray bomb and Himmlar takes over

I have enjoyed them all. They are a good read if you like those kind of books.

Larry

MDchanic

Thanks. I take some risks politically, but I feel like I have to follow my heart, even if my stand is unpopular.



Thanks for that vote of confidence.

Unlike some, I believe that the members of this board are mature enough to have a civilized conversation about a subject like this one (We already know that we're not mature enough to discuss putting LS motors in Oldsmobiles , but that's, like, a serious subject ).

Personally, I am very definitely not racist, though I am very realistic about human nature, which is a characteristic shared by all races.
As for South-bashing, though I may enjoy the sport in the privacy of my own home, I wouldn't think of doing it here, as that would be rude, and though I may at times be abrupt, curt, sharp, or snarky, I avoid being rude in all aspects of my life because I really detest rude people.

I am also annoyed by those who have no faith in me and my associates when I have given them no cause to do so.

- Eric

rocketraider

Had the Confederacy won the war...


Slavery would have died out on its own as mechanization became available. I do not think you'd have seen mass unionization of manufacturing simply because Southern people like to think and speak for themselves instead of paying a self-impressed overpaid loudmouth union steward to do it for them.

I think that habit of thinking and speaking for themselves and saying what is on their minds is one thing that really bothers non-southerners. Then again, most Southerners have the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that when they're finished, the object of their disregard has packed his bags and is looking forward to the trip.

The Southern states would have HAD to adapt to change simply to survive. They could easily have done so had opportunistic northerners not come here and tried to force it on them.

The modern American political structure would very likely be the same effed-up mess it is now, even if we were paying taxes to Richmond or Montgomery.

Attitudes like that displayed by Mr. Fettner are one reason true Southerners hold outsiders in such low regard. We had a plant manager several years back, originally from Michigan and who had launched her career in Massachusetts. She came in the door convinced we were all Gomer Pyle and as good as told us we couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to run the place. One of her hand-picked henchmen made a point of saying the place needed to hire people who did not say "y'all".

Never mind the plant had an enviable safety and production record that deteriorated while they were there and rebounded only after both of them "left to pursue other opportunities".

But yes, as die-hard Southern as I am, I really don't think there'd be any difference now if the CSA had won the war. Corporate America and the gimme crowd would still have peddled enough influence to see to that.

jerseymike

I always like to wonder what if we would have kept going into Russia like Patton wanted to and what if we would have taken control of Mexico after the Alamo.

MDchanic

There's no way we could have driven to Moscow - as strong as we were, our supply lines would have been too long, and our democratically-minded military had reached its objective: the total surrender of Germany.
A million or so guys who had been looking forward to a boat ride home as soon as the ***** were defeated would have deserted or mutinied if they'd been told they'd be in for another few years, if they survived that long.

As for Mexico - simple: We'd be running Mexico now, and you can ask the Mexicans about how well that's been going for them.
Leaving them alone and NOT pursuing that war any further was one of the smartest decisions the US made (though the rates of illness and death among the troops really allowed no other option).

- Eric

Redog

Cars would be coming from China then

Allan R

LOL what would be so different? Look how much stuff comes from there already

442much

442much

Race bating? Southern bashing? So any discussion about the Civil War would be southern bashing? Any discussion about WWII would be race bating and German, Japanese, Italian, Romanian, Ukranian, etc. bashing? Come on. Had Napoleon won at Waterloo there wouldn't have been the two world wars and millions of people wouldn't have died, because Europe would have been united under one ruler. The world would have been a vastly different place. The Europeans (namely Germans) probably would have been the first on the moon since the US and the Soviets got their technology from captured German scientists. Isn't it interesting to speculate?

I wasn't trying to bash or bait anyone. I used the civil war example because most on this forum are American and most are familiar with US history and events. I could have used the Napoleon example above, but how many would have been interested? You live in a country that values freedom of thought. No harm in taking advantage of that. Enjoy the freedoms you are given. If you don't like a subject, don't participate.

rocketraider

Ken- you will find that most Americans are appallingly ignorant of their country's history.

A lot of it (and American Civil War history in particular) is skewed and wildly inaccurate, but as history is generally written from the victors' point of view not surprising. Add in rewrites to pacify the professionally offended crowd and it is no wonder Americans have no clue about their history.

Yup- even if we were paying taxes to Richmond or Montgomery now instead of Washington, I believe the USA would still be as politically corrupt and screwed up as it is.

GAOldsman

He wasn't a barber but he was a banker In 1906, Olds organized the Capital National Bank, later called Lansing National Bank, and Michigan National Bank. Olds was also involved in the organization of the Michigan Screw Company and Atlas Drop Forge Company, all located in Lansing, Michigan.

Look at the bottom right signature here

Allan R

Scot, that's pretty neat. You must have been reading up on R.E.O. Is that money that you have or downloaded booty?

Well it also goes to show that out of all the things that we toss out for speculation, there's always some of it that is based on fact and history.

GAOldsman

That'll be downloaded booty But I'd love to have one. Notice it says below his signature "President"

Allan R

I find it interesting that it's labelled as "National Currency" but issued under the authority of the National Bank of Lansing. So my curiosity is getting the better of me. On the note it says "Will pay to the bearer on demand - 10 Dollars" If you had one of these, would they still pay out on it?

It would be worth 15 -120 depending on wear (looked that up)

m371961

If the south had won the civil war, grits, sweet potato pie and hush puppies would be more popular.

Al Graaf

I can see you boys have been busy while I was gone

Al Graaf

ye-haw!! Sounds great!

442much

Scott, I hate to be the bad guy here, but do suppose the signature could be that of Under-Secretary of State Robert E. Olds?

MDchanic

Not likely.

Why would an Undersecretary of State sign currency?
Secretary of the Treasury, sure, but Undersecretary od State? No way.

Back before the Depression, and all those New Deal laws, "real" money was made of metal, and bills that were spent were "silver certificates," which entitled the bearer to the sum in silver, "gold certificates," which entitled the bearer to the sum in gold, and "national currency" like this, which entitled the bearer to US coins, based, I believe, on US bonds on deposit.

It's one of the reasons why some in the US complain that their currency isn't based on anything anymore - it used to be.

- Eric

442much

I guess you're right. The signatures match....

REOldsSignature.jpg

GAOldsman

You couldn't because it's not a Federal Reserve Note, however the National Bank of Lansing Mich might would for $10.00

Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_E._Olds

Allan R

Saw an interested expose on Fort Knox (Brad Meltzer - decoded Fort Knox) where they were investigating the possibility that Fort Knox is actually empty and there are NO federal reserves.
It was interesting and had some cool 'depositions' by former employees. Course, nothing was proven....but it would be a great
WHAT IF..All of America was really broke???

Highwayman

There ain't no "what if" about it Allan.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

442much

I agree it's Olds' signature. However the information on the Olds Pirate and the race on Ormand Beach is wrong. The race was run in 1902 and it was considered by both parties to be a tie.

Allan R

Crap! That thing is mesmerizing....