455 w high mileage - timing gears
August 25th, 2012, 12:33 AM
#1
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455 w high mileage - timing gears
My 1968 Toronado - which once came out of a GM-plant here in Switzerland - has about 150'000 miles done with its genuine engine. And still running...
It was here in this forum that some people told me to replace timing gears. I have all the paperwork and could not find any hint that they were replaced earlier.
For a year or two the car lost power dramatically - and even more timing gears became suspect. At the end I decided to let them replace in a shop of my confidence because I couldn't find the time. I could hardly manage to drive the car over that small hill between my place and my shop.
Well - it's done now. Car is back and has it's normal power again - and I'm quite happy
So this is to show you the pics of the old timing gears. It's the big wheel that looks B A D !! Even if it hasn't had the nylon coating it was bloody worn - and with no doubt the chain must have jumped over.
BTW - to roughly check that chain it's possible to remove temporarily the fuel pump and put one finger in that hole to wiggle the chain and feel how much play it has...
It was here in this forum that some people told me to replace timing gears. I have all the paperwork and could not find any hint that they were replaced earlier.
For a year or two the car lost power dramatically - and even more timing gears became suspect. At the end I decided to let them replace in a shop of my confidence because I couldn't find the time. I could hardly manage to drive the car over that small hill between my place and my shop.
Well - it's done now. Car is back and has it's normal power again - and I'm quite happy
So this is to show you the pics of the old timing gears. It's the big wheel that looks B A D !! Even if it hasn't had the nylon coating it was bloody worn - and with no doubt the chain must have jumped over.
BTW - to roughly check that chain it's possible to remove temporarily the fuel pump and put one finger in that hole to wiggle the chain and feel how much play it has...
August 25th, 2012, 01:40 PM
#3
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First I have all the paperwork. ALL - from the very beginning. The car was very close to the place where I live - all the years... It seems I'm the third owner of it.
Then it has a special logo at the front grill on the driver side saying "GM - Biel/Bienne" - which was the name of that plant - and symbol of three mountains.
Isn't there a plant code part of the VIN??
They assembled the cars in Biel and painted them - mainly to prevent import taxes. The also assembled many Opel-models and few Ranger-models.
The plant disappeared when the modern tax commitments (EFTA something) became valid - and due tu the oil-shock 1972/73.
So these cars (from Switzerland) often had some minor differencies compared to US-cars. Were painted in a slightly different color or had some options together that one could not get in US. I think they have the glass from here - may be there is any logo on the glass? They may have other small parts produced in Switzerland or Europe - beams etc.
As far as I know they have all inch-measured screws - no metric stuff.
Then it has a special logo at the front grill on the driver side saying "GM - Biel/Bienne" - which was the name of that plant - and symbol of three mountains.
Isn't there a plant code part of the VIN??
They assembled the cars in Biel and painted them - mainly to prevent import taxes. The also assembled many Opel-models and few Ranger-models.
The plant disappeared when the modern tax commitments (EFTA something) became valid - and due tu the oil-shock 1972/73.
So these cars (from Switzerland) often had some minor differencies compared to US-cars. Were painted in a slightly different color or had some options together that one could not get in US. I think they have the glass from here - may be there is any logo on the glass? They may have other small parts produced in Switzerland or Europe - beams etc.
As far as I know they have all inch-measured screws - no metric stuff.
August 25th, 2012, 05:42 PM
#5
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I hate to break this to you, you do understand where all the nylon that USE to be on the cam gear went? Better plan on pulling the oil pan to clean out the oil pump pick-up before the engine has serious problems from oil starvation.
August 26th, 2012, 01:54 AM
#6
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Not genuine - is it?
As it looks, there was NO nylon at all coating this cam wheel - there is absolutely no trace of it to find - nowhere.
And isn't it another type of timing chain and gears as "those" genuine nylon coated ones? The wheel has kind of seven teeth in a row matching this wide chain...
I guess it has been replaced already once undocumented?
It's again not an easy thing to "just pull" the oil pan...
BTW: I have another nice pic of the old timing set. Here you can see how much the cogwheel was milled down - on the left side teeth fit into the chain and further on the right side teeth are more and more off the chains gaps...
And isn't it another type of timing chain and gears as "those" genuine nylon coated ones? The wheel has kind of seven teeth in a row matching this wide chain...
I guess it has been replaced already once undocumented?
It's again not an easy thing to "just pull" the oil pan...
BTW: I have another nice pic of the old timing set. Here you can see how much the cogwheel was milled down - on the left side teeth fit into the chain and further on the right side teeth are more and more off the chains gaps...
August 27th, 2012, 03:06 PM
#7
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That looks like it was a nylon coated gear. Did the shop fish the nylon out of the oil pan? If not, it can clog the pil pickup and lead to much more expensive damage.
Better be sure before you starve the engine of oil.
Better be sure before you starve the engine of oil.
August 28th, 2012, 05:20 AM
#8
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The cam gear doesn't exactly look like a nylon toothed quiet gear, but does look to have some kind of softer metal teeth. Good thing you changed the timing set out when you did, as was close to tow truck time. Far as dropping the pan for inspection, never a bad idea, but were probably very small soft shavings over time, that likely got picked up by the oil filter. Never knew large American cars were ever produced overseas, but guess I just learned something new today.
August 28th, 2012, 06:12 AM
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If that gear ever was coated with nylon, than it has been milled off completly YEARS ago. I have it for more than 10 years now and did only about 4000 miles with it. It would have runned for tenthousands of miles with that stuff in the engine...
I have no idea if they checked oil pickup or pan floor in the shop - they did not pull the engine out, just liftet it some inches and loosened the oil pan as far as necessary.
May be I'll check the pan using an endoscope once - but dropping the pan would mean another big action. Not any quick inspection - does it?
Wouldn't nylon swim in oil anyway?
I have no idea if they checked oil pickup or pan floor in the shop - they did not pull the engine out, just liftet it some inches and loosened the oil pan as far as necessary.
May be I'll check the pan using an endoscope once - but dropping the pan would mean another big action. Not any quick inspection - does it?
Wouldn't nylon swim in oil anyway?
August 28th, 2012, 06:15 PM
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I have seen the gears with all the nylon gone from them. It ends up in the bottom of the pan and in several incidences, plugs the oil pickup screen with bad results. Nylon does not float in oil and the factory never used an aluminum cam gear running directly on the chain.
I replaced many on 60's and 70's cars with less than 100,000 miles on them and or less than 8 years old at the time.. On more than one occasion, I had to fish the nylon out of the bottom of the pan. Some make if farther than that but it's a gamble.
More recently I pulled an '84 305 Chevy apart and the nylon was still there, but cracked all the way around. Last summer was a '67 300 inch Buick. Most all the nylon was in the pan. In that case, the chain jumped time and it wouldn't run.
Don't take the chance. A friend found out the hard way 3 years ago that if the nylon is left in the pan, the pickup can clog. It was a $3000 lesson for him on what was a perfectly good 350 Olds engine.
I replaced many on 60's and 70's cars with less than 100,000 miles on them and or less than 8 years old at the time.. On more than one occasion, I had to fish the nylon out of the bottom of the pan. Some make if farther than that but it's a gamble.
More recently I pulled an '84 305 Chevy apart and the nylon was still there, but cracked all the way around. Last summer was a '67 300 inch Buick. Most all the nylon was in the pan. In that case, the chain jumped time and it wouldn't run.
Don't take the chance. A friend found out the hard way 3 years ago that if the nylon is left in the pan, the pickup can clog. It was a $3000 lesson for him on what was a perfectly good 350 Olds engine.
August 28th, 2012, 07:38 PM
#11
1974 DELTA 88
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How much slack could you feel on yours with the fuel pump removed? I wondered if this was a decent way of checking it. I've rotated my crank and watched for the distributor/rotor to turn, and I get about 1.5" crank movement before the rotor moves, so I know mine is worn anyway.
August 28th, 2012, 08:07 PM
#12
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Bryan, I remember we were talking about timing chains a while back. turns out mine had the exact issue. It was worn, and it skipped.. I had no choice but to spring for a nice cloyes set.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-rocket-4.html
Old timing chain, notice it's about 30 degrees out of time.
New Cloyes USA Made timing chain, line up the marks, slap it on, and roll down the highway.
Old timing chain, notice it's about 30 degrees out of time.
New Cloyes USA Made timing chain, line up the marks, slap it on, and roll down the highway.
August 28th, 2012, 10:49 PM
#13
1974 DELTA 88
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That new chain and gears sure looks nice! Did you notice much difference after install?
August 29th, 2012, 12:43 AM
#14
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I have seen the gears with all the nylon gone from them. It ends up in the bottom of the pan and in several incidences, plugs the oil pickup screen with bad results. Nylon does not float in oil and the factory never used an aluminum cam gear running directly on the chain.
I replaced many on 60's and 70's cars with less than 100,000 miles on them and or less than 8 years old at the time.. On more than one occasion, I had to fish the nylon out of the bottom of the pan. Some make if farther than that but it's a gamble.
More recently I pulled an '84 305 Chevy apart and the nylon was still there, but cracked all the way around. Last summer was a '67 300 inch Buick. Most all the nylon was in the pan. In that case, the chain jumped time and it wouldn't run.
Don't take the chance. A friend found out the hard way 3 years ago that if the nylon is left in the pan, the pickup can clog. It was a $3000 lesson for him on what was a perfectly good 350 Olds engine.
I replaced many on 60's and 70's cars with less than 100,000 miles on them and or less than 8 years old at the time.. On more than one occasion, I had to fish the nylon out of the bottom of the pan. Some make if farther than that but it's a gamble.
More recently I pulled an '84 305 Chevy apart and the nylon was still there, but cracked all the way around. Last summer was a '67 300 inch Buick. Most all the nylon was in the pan. In that case, the chain jumped time and it wouldn't run.
Don't take the chance. A friend found out the hard way 3 years ago that if the nylon is left in the pan, the pickup can clog. It was a $3000 lesson for him on what was a perfectly good 350 Olds engine.
Fair point, well made.
I'll check it.
August 29th, 2012, 12:49 AM
#15
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That's always great news! Mine lacks power, I think, and the timing chain is next on my list. I wanted to do it a long time ago, but things come up, no money, no time.
How much slack could you feel on yours with the fuel pump removed? I wondered if this was a decent way of checking it. I've rotated my crank and watched for the distributor/rotor to turn, and I get about 1.5" crank movement before the rotor moves, so I know mine is worn anyway.
How much slack could you feel on yours with the fuel pump removed? I wondered if this was a decent way of checking it. I've rotated my crank and watched for the distributor/rotor to turn, and I get about 1.5" crank movement before the rotor moves, so I know mine is worn anyway.
That way you can also just find out, if it has that "wide" chain which probably/obviously means you have an alu-wheel on top or if it has the double roller chain with steel wheels.
But it's not a "decent" way to check - I'm afraid. Just a hint...
August 29th, 2012, 07:14 AM
#16
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When I was a high school kid, my buddies moms Chevy wagon was dying, so we replaced the timing set. The cam nylon quiet gear was nearly non existant, but didn't drop the pan to check for chunks, and car went on for years. If not already, good idea installing an oil pressure gauge, to keep an eye on things. I put a small Auto Meter/AutoGage 2391 triple console under the dash, painted to match, and looks pretty good. All electric, so only different engine sensors(included), and wiring to run. Believe it was under $100 bucks(US), from Summit racing. Tee'd in the engine sensors, so the dash warning lights still work. The "autometer.com" site has a pdf catalog download of their products, and all kinds of mounting options.
August 29th, 2012, 07:30 AM
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August 30th, 2012, 12:29 AM
#18
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It's not the idea to check for nylon chunks that I don't like - it's the idea to separate the engine from front-wheel-transmission to allow me to pull the engine to allow me to drop the oil pan to allow me to check for nylon chunks.
So I will first go into all the possibilities to check or flush the oil pan without dropping it. First try to put an endoscope through the drain plug hole... usually a difficult thing to really see anything using an endoscope.
Any more ideas for "non-invasive surgery-methods"?
August 30th, 2012, 06:40 AM
#19
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I agree with scoping it. If you don't see any mess, then you're fine.
If you see a lot of nylon, you may be able to fashion a tool to reach in and scrape with to drag most of it out.
It doesn't have to be perfectly clean - just clean enough that the pickup won't get blocked.
- Eric
If you see a lot of nylon, you may be able to fashion a tool to reach in and scrape with to drag most of it out.
It doesn't have to be perfectly clean - just clean enough that the pickup won't get blocked.
- Eric
August 30th, 2012, 06:50 AM
#20
Arrrggggg
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Well, it HAS a oil pressure control lamp which certainly would make me stop the engine when flashing. However - this could easily be too late to prevent damage.
It's not the idea to check for nylon chunks that I don't like - it's the idea to separate the engine from front-wheel-transmission to allow me to pull the engine to allow me to drop the oil pan to allow me to check for nylon chunks.
So I will first go into all the possibilities to check or flush the oil pan without dropping it. First try to put an endoscope through the drain plug hole... usually a difficult thing to really see anything using an endoscope.
Any more ideas for "non-invasive surgery-methods"?
It's not the idea to check for nylon chunks that I don't like - it's the idea to separate the engine from front-wheel-transmission to allow me to pull the engine to allow me to drop the oil pan to allow me to check for nylon chunks.
So I will first go into all the possibilities to check or flush the oil pan without dropping it. First try to put an endoscope through the drain plug hole... usually a difficult thing to really see anything using an endoscope.
Any more ideas for "non-invasive surgery-methods"?
August 30th, 2012, 07:49 AM
#21
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Well as stated before. If it did have nylon gears and it's gone it went some where. If that wasn't the original gears than your fine. So you basiclly have a 50/50 chance that there is nylon in your pan. I would drain the oil and look for any thing even the smallest of things and if it's nylon then I would just suck it up and yank the pan.
I'll take a look - need some time, can't lie under the car these days. Thanks to all of you - you help me a lot!
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