timothypaul

Hey Group,

Leaving that old Holley thread behind, and trying to start with the basics to sort out these rough running problems.

I believe there is a timing issue. But I am a novice weekend mechanic.

So, I have the distributor just to the right of No.1. The timing mark is on 12 degrees. From what I can tell it seems like cyl 1 is on tdc, but I am not 100% sure.

I was thinking I should turn the crank a bit so the timing mark is on 0, and then see where the cylinder is versus the distributor.

What is the best way to make sure everything is set up correctly from the ground up?

Thanks...TP

66ninetyeightls

Get a timing light so you are not guessing at the actual ignition timing.

Dapapadon

X2! The basics you mention are just to getting it statred so you can use a timing light. If it starts it's time for the light.

Don

ziff396

x3

timothypaul

Ok cool. It starts so I put the timing light on it. The timing mark is coming up around 20-24 degrees. Its difficult to tell because its so far of the scale.

Also, when I accelerate the car the timing mark does not advance.

442much

Is the distributor HEI or the old points set up?

citcapp

You have to disconnect the vacuum advance first before you set the timing.then make sure your idle is set correctly then set your timing. Star at 12 degrees.

69442C

Make sure you you plug that vacuum line when you remove it. If you remove the hose at the distributor, I find a golf tee works well to plug the hose.

timothypaul

I am using the MSD Pro Billet Distributor w/ a MSD blaster 2 coil.

I did have the vacuum advance off.

So you guys are suggesting; back off the advance slowly, I will need to continually increase the idle to keep it running and get myself to a starting point of 12 degrees.

Before I do that, how can I tell if the distributor is a tooth off. I am thinking perhaps I did not get it correct when I installed it.

Thanks...TP

timothypaul

Forgot to mention... i did not get a cam card from the eingine builder - all he sent me was: 308 duration and 472 lift

MDchanic

If the timing is set right, then the distributor is in the right place.
If it is off by s tooth, you won't be able to rotate it as far as you need to to time the engine.

- Eric

timothypaul

Ok - my health has really been a drawback, so I had to take the car to another mechanic.

Here is his thoughts...

Intake manifold leaks - leaking oil at back - perhaps creating vacuum leaks
vacuum advance - need adjustable cannister
brake booster leaking - more vacuum issues

on the intake manifold - I did not use the valley pan because I have an Edelbrock Performer Manifold - should I use one?

in between head & manifold - cork? / RTV? - should I put something on the intake bolts - he said oil is seeping up through the bolts?

Thanks...TP

66ninetyeightls

What intake gaskets did you use?

oldcutlass

This is a concern!!!

Two questions, is the timing light hooked to #1 cylinder? And 2, you state the timing does not advance with a change in RPM.

Check your springs, weights, and advance plate for serviceability and operation.

Is there an advance canister currently on the distributor? Hook it up to manifold vacuum and see if it effects your timing. Then disconnect the vacuum and see if it returns to baseline. If it does not do both of these items replace.

Next, you really need an adjustable timing light for this. Run your RPM up to about 2800 - 3200 and set your timing to 34-36 deg btdc. then return your rpm back to idle, somewhere around 750, and see where your timing is then. Should be somewhere between 14-20. Do not adjust at idle, just note and monitor!

Then reconnect your vacuum advance to ported vacuum, run the RPM back to 3000-3400 and your timing should read somewhere around 45-50 deg btdc.

If it pings while driving, retard timing by 1-2 deg at a time until it stops.

It's all trial and error!! Good luck!

MDchanic

Wow. That was posted on August 6th and none of us noticed it until OldCutlass pointed it out today.

If your mechanical advance isn't working, you could definitely have running problems - you'll be able to get it right at one speed, and it will be wrong at all the others (smooth idle, but no power, good power but bad idle, etc.)

When you increase the RPMs, the advance line should slowly move earlier and earlier (higher and higher numbers on the scale) up until somewhere 3,000 RPM (expert tuners will tell you exactly where you want this). Even without a timing tape or an advance timing light, you should be able to see smooth advance with increasing speed, and smooth retard with decreasing speed. If this is not happening, look inside your distributor with the rotor off — you should be able to gently move the advance weights outward against their springs and have the shaft rotate slightly as you do. If not, then you've got a problem - take it apart and find out where it's hanging up.

Let us know .

- Eric

ah64pilot

1. After struggling with the stock 'non degree' balancer I finally broke down and spent $1.50 on a Summit timing tape. Wow, my timing woes started to go away after that. I could see exactly where everything was at idle on up to 3500rpm and beyond. I suggest you invest this minute amount of money into this awesome little tape. Just line up the 0 degree mark with the one on your balancer. It would be the one that lined up with the 0 degree mark on the tab at TDC.

2. Regardless of cam, your distributor rotor at TDC should line up with the #1 cylinder. You can either re-stab your distributor to where the rotor will line up with where the #1 plug wire is installed on your cap OR you can move your wires (keep the firing order straight) to where the rotor is lined up as it sits at TDC. Whatever way you decide to do it, at TDC or 0 degrees advance, the rotor should be exactly on the #1 cylinder plug. However, moving wires is easier but a re-stab to line the rotor up with both the physical #1 cylinder and the theoretical #1 cylinder (plug wire on cap) will allow room to advance and retard the distributor to find out where the engine runs best.

3. You have an MSD distributor; what advance bushing do you have in it? It should either be a black, blue, silver, etc. Each one allows a different amount of total mechanical advance. Find out which one you have and what TOTAL mechanical advance it allows. Whatever that bushing allows, subtract it from 35 degrees and the remainder is THE MAX INITIAL TIMING you should put in your motor (on 93 octane).

4. Once you have timing tape (or a readable mark on balancer), a TDC 0 degree alignment w/ #1 cylinder, and the MAX initial timing figured out; start at the MAX initial timing and see how she runs both at idle and all out. Bring it down 2 degrees at a time until you find the compromise between good idle and good power. Once you find it, you should be happy with the cars driveability and performance. For track nights, play with more advance to see how much better your time can get with additional timing...just remember not to advance above 35 degrees total timing unless you are running a higher octane fuel.

* This is a great way to time your engine with a mechanical advance, MSD pro billet distributor. The principal is the same for stock points and HEI distributors except that with vacuum advance the TOTAL timing may exceed 35 degrees at cruise. The vacuum advance will advance the timing beyond the mechanical advance bushing allows. This is why you should remove the vacuum tube from the carburetor and plug the port on the carburetor when timing a vacuum advance system.

**Exemptions to this rule include, but are not limited to: 104 octane gas which allows more TOTAL timing (initial + advance), points type distributors which will affect distributor performance and can mislead you into thinking it's a timing problem when in fact the points are worn out.

timothypaul

Well - I finally got around to messing with this. I pulled the distributor out and have the black bushing. I am thinking for my engine, I should swap that out with another one.

However, using the timing tape, and the instructions above, I seemed to have gotten the car to run the best it has so far. The car currently is set to an initial timing of 18 degrees. The downside is I am only getting about 7 inches of vacuum.

I also noticed I seem to have the heavy springs on the distributor. I think this could be causing the pinging during acceleration even though I am using a 93 octane.

TP

oldcutlass

Did you fix the vacuum leaks?

nsnarsk65cutlass

Is the 7 inches of vacuum at idle?does it really have a vacuum leak or is that because of the cam grind i see you said 308 duration 472 inch lift.

timothypaul

I'm not sure what highway temps should be.

I'm running 232 at 70 miles per hour. Open highway - no traffic or dirty air. This seems a little hot to me. When I push to 80/mph it started to hit close to 240. I backed off to 65/mph and it cooled down a bit below 232 and sat steady.

This seems too hot to me?

Thoughts....TP

MDchanic

The engine should remain at the temperature set by the thermostat when running on a flat highway, which is to say 180° or 195° most commonly.

You've got something very wrong.
First thing to check us whether your lower hose is collapsing.
Second is whether your radiators inadequate.

- Eric

Troys Toy 70

How long did you run at that temp, and when did symptoms first occur?

oldcutlass

Been a while since your last post, hope your feeling better. Your temps are considered high. What are your timing settings now? Have the vacuum issues been corrected? What radiator, type of fan, shroud (yes or no), and thermostat are you running?

timothypaul

Yes. Has been a while. Poor Cutlass got T-boned last year so I parked it in my warehouse and it's been sitting. Thankfully it was the passenger side, and it's still drivable but it was discouraging. And no collectors insurance. :-(

Still feeling like garbage, doctors have no clue what's wrong. Thank you for asking though!

Let's see, I resat the intake manifold, when I installed Rhoades lifters, I did exactly what was mentioned as to the timing above and that worked wonders. I never really drive it on the highway, so never really noticed how hot it ran. Was running that hot for perhaps 45-50 miles.

I checked the radiator hose and it seemed fine. I have an aluminum radiator I put in when I installed the engine and I do have the fan shroud.

oldcutlass

The engine had been rebuilt, when this exercise started, correct? Does the coolant look nice and green? Are you sure the temp gauge is accurate?


Things that cause hi running temps at speed are lack of air flow through the radiator at speed (an obstruction), radiator capacity, faulty thermostat, water pump flow, collapsed lower hose, timing not advanced enough, carb too lean...

pogo69

that w31 camshaft is tough to get even semi smooth...forget a good vacuum

timothypaul

Ya. That's why I put the Rhoades lifters in. I had to use the standards though because of the pedestal valve train. My last Olds I use Harland Sharps roller rockers and was able to use the better Rhoads lifters. I'm probably only getting 1 to 2 more vacuum with these lifters. So it's still very bad.

timothypaul

Timing and carb to lean maybe an issue.

Thermostat is 180.

timothypaul

Was finally able to check a few things. The car seems to be running really well. I'm very happy with the timing now.

The temperature just seems to slowly creep and creep up. I checked the thermostat and it's fine. I removed it anyway.

I thought there was a point where the airflow takes over from the fan. So if I'm cruising along at 45-50 miles an hour, the temp should remain constant. That's not happening. Whethere driving in traffic or moderate speeds on a highway, she still creeps up.

Thoughts?

MDchanic

Sounds like an inadequate radiator to me.

Does your lower hose have a spring inside of it?

- Eric

timothypaul

Doesn't feel like there is a spring in there

Octania

Then the lower hose may be getting sucked shut at elevated engine speeds

I first saw this on my '68
I had removed the spring, not knowing what it was for [ignorant move]
Then I was revving the engine, probably to set timing, and some motion caught my eye- the hose was collapsing. So, you may be able to observe it with the car stationary.

timothypaul

Well I'll be dipped. Yes the lower hose is cavitating. I would have never thought of that. Nobody in town has one so I ordered a Dayco. They couldn't tell me if it has a spring inside.

For giggles I cut the hose and inserted a 1-1/2 inch PVC pipe but it just collapsed where the turn is coming off the radiator. Oh well.

MDchanic

It's the little things...

Glad you found that problem.

Let us know whether that actually fixes it for you.

- Eric

hilbily

With the lower hose's that have a loose spring in them we used to bend about a 1/4 " 90 in the very end of the spring and drill a 1/8" hole in the lower hose fitting about 1/4" in from the very end to hook the spring into to help prevent the water pump from sucking the spring in,bad things happen when this occurs.

timothypaul

:-(

Just picked up the Dayco hose. No spring. Boo.

MDchanic

Some of the newer hoses are supposed to have thicker and more rigid walls and not need a spring.

I do not know whether this is true in practice.

- Eric

timothypaul

Well that hose was junk. Took it back and swapped it for a Dayco 81261. Putting the part number in case any fellow member should ever need it. It's a 19.5 inch length, 1.75 ID x 1.5 ID with the steel spring. Cavitation problem solved. I may trim the length a bit cause it touches the frame a bit.

I put my 160 degree thermostat back in this morning. At the moment I've still running mostly water. I'm curious what I should expect. If the problem seems resolved, I'll put anti-freeze back in. I'm just tired of dumping a ton of anti-freeze.

Thanks. TP

oldcutlass

Antifreeze is not going to change how it cools much. If you drive it in the winter with the 160 thermostat, you may not get much heat and the engine may not reach full operating temp on a really cold day. Remember the stat only sets minimum temps, maximum is set by cooling system effectiveness.

MDchanic

Water is a more effective coolant than antifreeze, but has the disadvantages of causing corrosion and boiling too soon.

It will cool fine with water, but keep the cap on and don't leave it in for too long.

- Eric