'39 60-SERIES 4 DR. SEDAN

[FRITZ]

Hello all. Thanks for admitting me to the group! I understand that newbie's are required to report to the newbie forum for everyone to look over so I thought I'd say my hello's.

I recently inherited my father's '39. This was the classic "barn find" back in 2000 when my dad came upon it while doing some architectual work for a client of his. Seems the car had been sitting in the barn at the back of a more recently developing farm property. It was all original and unmolested. Dad was able to acquire the car after tracing down the little old lady who's name it was in after her farmer husband died a few decades ago. She agreed to sell it to my dad for $1500.

For me, this is where the dream ends because dad and I had a totally different opinion on the restoration of old cars. As an architect and designer, my dad firmly believed that his vision of anything was the best vision and everything he owned had to have some of his vision in it. So, with my strong opposition noted, logged and filed in the back of the restoration folder, dad sent the car to the shop with his blueprints and a blank check. When it returned to dad's garage it had it's all original, numbers matching straight 6 flathead and 3 speed manual replaced by a mid-80's carburated Chevy 350 and 700R4 automatic. And just in case we had a rare hot day here in northern Ohio, he had air conditioning installed. Seems the upholsterer had his chance with the car also. Custom fitted leather 6-way power seats from a late model Lincoln Continental replaced the all original factory seats and fabrics! There were all chrome rims and caps as well as a power brake assist unit and dual exhaust with side pipes!

Luck was with me just a little, however. Turns out dad liked the design of the cars body and left that alone except for the custom 2-tone paint (Black cherry on Candy apple red). He also got a bit impatient and told the shop he wanted the car back a.s.a.p. so they left it on it's original frame and suspension. Then came the '67 Firebird convertable so the Olds was parked once again and left unused and unloved for another 8 years.

Now the cars are in my garage. The Firebird is for sale but I LOVE the Olds! It won't be going anywhere anytime soon but I am going to concentrate on bringing it back to original as time and funds permit. Since dad left the suspension alone, I'm currently working on freshening everything up underneath. And this is what brings me to ClassicOldsmobile.com. I'm learning about 1939 technology as I go because I enjoy working on these things myself rather than sending it off for someone else to tinker with. I find that I have a few questions and will be needing some original GM parts and was hoping I might find some seasoned experts here!

I have some pics if posting is allowed.
Thanks!
Fritz

[Oldsguy]

Fritz,
Welcome to CO. Sounds like the '39 is really a nice car even though it isn't to your liking. I have a straight six that came out of my '46 if you are interested. Just let me know. I will sell it to you cheap, say $100 plus shipping or you pick it up yourself.
Back to your car, we would love to see pictures of it.

[citcapp]

Welcome to the site. Returning the car back to its original condition is quite a challange. Good luck

[FRITZ]

Thanks guys. Can you tell me if I'll be able to post in the classified sections? I'm currently looking for a knuckle support for the LH side and would like to post in the parts wanted section.

Fritz

[Jamesbo]

Welcome aboard,

Some time back we had a terrible time with spammers. To stop it we changed to only allow newbies to post in one section until they were approved. It keeps out most spam, but it makes you post five times before you can post in other sections. You're almost there. Please bear with this inconvenience. It's well worth it.

[Operation Deltapower]

welcome to the site!

[FRITZ]

Ok. Here's post #3. Lets see, what can we talk about?? Hmmm. Hello OD. Thanks for the welcome!

I'll get some pics together this evening and put them up. The '39 is in beautiful condition. It needs some bugs worked out of it, however. Dad never really "broke it in" after he completed the restoration so I'm finding all the little things that need to be ironed out 8 years later! This knuckle support issue will solve a problem I was having getting the front end properly aligned. I replaced the king pins and bushings and tightened up the front bearings so we're nice and solid up front now. But in doing this I noticed that the LH knuckle support is bent inward just enough to keep me from properly adjusting the camber. I found a Moog replacement on Ebay (Moog #521) supposedly to replace the original GM #410915 only to find that it's not the correct replacement at all. It fits in place and I was able to remount the wheel but it still leans in. I took it up to my mechanic who put it on a lift and imediately saw that the Moog part is straight up and down while the factory GM part on the other side has a slight arch outward giving the tire it's proper positive camber. The guy I bought the part from on Ebay was positive that this is the correct part for this car. He says he's sold 3 others and not received any complaints. So I don't know what to think at this point other than to try to find another genuine GM part with the above # cast in it to see if it's the same shape as the Moog part or the other GM part on the passenger side.

Fritz

[citcapp]

Have you tried Fusick on the internet

[82 Grocery Getter]

Welcome, FRITZ!

[FRITZ]

Pat--Yes, I have Fusick's latest catalog and called them regarding this part. They list it in the back of the catalog but they told me over the phone that they no longer have it in stock. I'm going to call again tomorrow morning to see if I get the same answer. I have an appointment Saturday morning with our local custom exhaust shop to get an estimate on changing the dual sidepipe system over to as close to stock as possible. I want the car to be a nice quiet cruiser! Plus, once I tame the muffler noise down I'll have a chance to listen to the car for other issues that may need addressing such as bearings, rear end gears, etc.

Fritz

[FRITZ]

Well, I guess I can't figure out how to post pics here. Any pointers?

[Olds64]

Welcome. Can't wait to see those pictures.

[Oldsguy]

You have posted your fifth time and this is your second day of membership so you should be able to post now unlimited, including pictures. If you select post reply instead of quick reply you should have an option to upload attachments.

[FRITZ]

Lets try again with the pics:

[Oldsguy]

I bet it is a very nice riding car the way it is. I wouldn't dismiss your dad's idea too much, I remember in the 80's and 90's the "Street Rod" concept was the way to go and it looks like the car pretty much nails that idea and it is probably pretty reliable with the modern running gear. But what you have in mind for it is quite noble and worth the effort. If in your research you find the engines were the same from '39 to '46 (I am not sure) let me know.

[FRITZ]

Thanks Dan! The car does ride pretty nice especially now that the king pins and bushings have been replaced. It was awful before this was completed. There was so much play in the front end that the car was almost not manageable. It wandered all over the road and rattled and clanked on the tinyest little crack in the road. It's amazing what a difference the new pins and bushings make! It's now solid and quiet up front. With the drivers side tire at a negative camber of about 1.5 degrees, it pulls to the right. Somewhere in it's past it had been in a driver side collision and the knuckle support arm was bent. This also damaged the knee action shock on that side. I replace the shock and the support arm but found that the Moog replacement support arm (#521) is different than the original GM support on the other side. I still have negative camber so I'll need to find the correct replacement in order to call the front end complete.

The car also has bias ply tires and it's original manual brakes (although the front drums are now power assisted) so it's not really at the same level as a true "resto-mod". I think it rides about the same as it would have when new - it's just that our roads today are smoother than the old brick roads of 1939! And the 700R4 transmission with overdrive does help at higher speeds but the lower ratio original rear end still makes it a little difficult to get the car over about 60 miles per hour.

Fritz

[82 Grocery Getter]

WHOA! Fritz... THAT is... straight to the point... a BEAUTIFUL piece of Olds history! WOW MAN... wow...

[BLUE72RAGTOP]

Very nice. Good luck finding the correct part. By the way, a little negative camber isn't alway the worst thing in the world. If you replaced both sides with the newer straight part, would it stop pulling?

[FRITZ]

The problem is that the combination of the weight of the car and the negative camber, the tires want to tow out while moving forward causing excessive wear on the inside of the tire. It's better to have a little positive camber and a very slight tow-in on the front end alignment to counteract the weight and forward movement of the car. Negative camber's not so good! Plus it looks ugly when you look at the car straight on.

I called Fusick again this morning and talked to a different person than when I called last week. He went out to their warehouse and found that they did have the part I needed. But it's the Moog part #521 also! And they have it listed in their catalog as correct for '39-'53. I had him send it to me anyway so I can compare it with the Moog part I bought on ebay. They'll take it back if I can't use it.

[rocketraider]

You need, in addition to the Fusick catalog:

A Kanter catalog (their parts can be expensive, but they generally will have it) www.kanter.com

A USA Parts Supply catalog www.usapartssupply.com

A National Antique Oldsmobile Club membership www.antiqueolds.org to help you find original style seats and drivetrain.

An AACA membership www.aaca.org

These should help you at least get started putting the car back to the way it should be.

In a way you can count yourself lucky that your dad half-assed the car, since you don't have to undo any major chassis modification. The trouble is he scrapped a lot of the ESSENTIAL parts of a 1939 car to achieve his vision of what it should be. Sorry to say his vision was exactly like a lot of other street-rodders' "concepts". In other words, same old same old, no imagination, and the misguided notion that an old car can be reliable ONLY if its original drivetrain is scrapped in favor of modern Chevrolet units.

Guys here have heard me say this many times.


IF YOU WANT A MODERN CAR, GO BUY A MODERN CAR.

[FRITZ]

Rocket--

We agree on the idea that a vintage antique automobile should be kept factory original. And my dad squandered a rare opportunity to do that with this car as it was untouched with the exception of the usual usage repairs that one would find on a used car. But you know I'm going to have to defend his imagination and sense of creativity that can be seen in this car. I guess you'd have to know my dad and his "style" to see it in the work he did on this car. My dad was an architect and master woodworker - not a mechanic, body man or a true "street rodder". His intention was to do a mild resto-mod on the car so that it appeared original at first glance but make it more comfortable and driveable on today's roads. He was relying on the input of a lot of people who were professionals in these areas - some where people he knew and others were referrals. In the end, I believe he received lots of bad advice and allowed his stubborn old German side to take over when he should have held off and given more thought to the project.

Anyway, you'd have to see more of the little details that my dad hand crafted himself and added to the car in order to appreciate (at least a little) what his vision was. He liked to hand craft many of the interior elements himself from rare and fine woods. He felt he was making the car more comfortable and personal rather than restoring the original pieces that the factory mass produced. I loved his work but really prefered it on furnature and custom built-ins on a house rather than on a vintage car! We agreed to disagree on this point and I was never able to sway his opinion.

Slowly but surely I'd like to put this car back to factory original. Aside from restoring the original suspension that dad left on the car, I have an appointment this Wednesday to have the dual exhaust and side pipes replaced with an original single pipe discharge on the passenger side in back. I plan to acquire a nice period tip deflector to finish it off. Unfortunately, the original engine and trans are long gone (believe me, I called the mechanic that made the switch to see if he still had them sitting in the back of his shop somewhere!). But it has it's original steering column and shift lever so when the time comes to make the switch back, the replacement engine and trans will fall right into place and the only person who'll know it's not numbers matching will be me - and everyone else reading this!

Here are a few pics of the custom real wood details my dad hand crafted for the car:

[Oldsguy]

I did notice the wood work and wondered about it. Looks real nice but just doesn't fit the car, I agree with you. Good luck in your efforts.

[Ravensmile]

Hi Fritz, sounds like you found a real beautie. I can't see your pictures but the 39 is a gorgeous car. I saw that you've already found the kanter catalog. I recently found the Steele Rubber Products catalog and they list a lot of things that should fit your car.

good luck

[wolfman98]

I really like the look of the 39. I even like the color. I have to say that the one thing that looks most out of place are those front seats. Did your dad keep the originals? it sounded like they were in good shape when he changed them.

[Jamesbo]

Now that is way cool.

[Olds64]

Very cool!

[ozoneblue]

Welcome from Susan & Larry in the Mo.Ozarks Nice car The older the better

[citcapp]

Note that Fritz has not been on the site since May 17th.

[kcars]

Fritz, I hope you have joined the National Antique Oldsmobile Club, 121 N. Railroad St, Myerstown, Pa, 17067. They would be a great help locating other '39 Olds owners and '39 original parts. I like original cars too, but your car is pretty cool the way your dad set it up. Good luck.

[55olds98holiday]

Originally Posted by rocketraider

You need, in addition to the Fusick catalog:

A Kanter catalog (their parts can be expensive, but they generally will have it) www.kanter.com

A USA Parts Supply catalog www.usapartssupply.com

A National Antique Oldsmobile Club membership www.antiqueolds.org to help you find original style seats and drivetrain.

An AACA membership www.aaca.org

These should help you at least get started putting the car back to the way it should be.

In a way you can count yourself lucky that your dad half-assed the car, since you don't have to undo any major chassis modification. The trouble is he scrapped a lot of the ESSENTIAL parts of a 1939 car to achieve his vision of what it should be. Sorry to say his vision was exactly like a lot of other street-rodders' "concepts". In other words, same old same old, no imagination, and the misguided notion that an old car can be reliable ONLY if its original drivetrain is scrapped in favor of modern Chevrolet units.

Guys here have heard me say this many times.


IF YOU WANT A MODERN CAR, GO BUY A MODERN CAR.

I could'nt agree more.

[oldsguard]

Wish they created more modern cars with a sense of character like the older ones. Even the ones that seem like the attempt was made, it always seems to fall a bit short. I wonder if there will be any late model cars that will garner attention in 20 years...will I ever look back and wish I had kept my 98 Lumina in mint condition instead of crushing 260,000 miles (and ticking) on it? Don't really think so, but stranger things have happened.

[Ravensmile]

Amazing! Fritz, your car is gorgeous. I love the color combination.
I'm a fan of pure stock restoration usually but it's just wonderful to see these old cars moving anyway they can be put back in order. The fact that you can drive and enjoy it is the best part.

[kcars]

Originally Posted by oldsguard

Wish they created more modern cars with a sense of character like the older ones. Even the ones that seem like the attempt was made, it always seems to fall a bit short. I wonder if there will be any late model cars that will garner attention in 20 years...will I ever look back and wish I had kept my 98 Lumina in mint condition instead of crushing 260,000 miles (and ticking) on it? Don't really think so, but stranger things have happened.

The new Chev Camaro has character. There are now over 20,000 built and they draw crowds wherever they show up. I have one on order and believe it is a modern collectable unlike anything else on the road. Go to camaro5.com to check out this amazing new car and its owners/fans.

[oldsguard]

Yeah, camaros, challengers, the mustang. All real nice, but the rods and the classics are often grocery getters at some point in their life, and the modern family rides often seem underwhelming and way more function than form. The HHR and PT were at least attempts at it....maybe I'm just caught thinking most everything older was more attractive in general.

[csstrux]

Originally Posted by oldsguard

Yeah, camaros, challengers, the mustang. All real nice, but the rods and the classics are often grocery getters at some point in their life, and the modern family rides often seem underwhelming and way more function than form. The HHR and PT were at least attempts at it....maybe I'm just caught thinking most everything older was more attractive in general.

Think that might have something to do with nostalgia. Though I would like to see some car guys...real car guys building rolling fantasies and dreams again. I don't know if it will ever happen again, but I think the late fifties and early sixties were the pinnacle of character in a car. That said most were just daily drivers and the styling reflected the times IMO.

[wolfman98]

You are right on the mark there. Those original pioneers of the late 50's who created their hotrods and then invented the dragrace on the beaches will never be exactly recreated. At least when they invented the dragrace it was infinately safer than the guys who streetrace today. Of course in part due to the fact that there are so many cars on the roads and streets today. But when I was just a kid i remember my 66 Chev Impala SS with my SBC 327 - 350 hsp. I was a little wild and crazy as a lot of young men with cars. I guess it's a ritual we have to go through. Now I have a 455 big block and I doubt that now in my 50's I will be wild and crazy. I guess I graduated. Today's muscle cars seem to be eerily similar ie camaro , mustang and challenger. plus I checked out the new 2010 mustang and they changed the styling for the better I think but the 42,000.00 price tag made sure i just looked. Prices up here way higher than in the U.S. even today.