TomB

Hi to all,

after restoring our 1955 Oldsmobile Super 88 with Hydramatic ( was not on the street for 20 years ), I had the problem, that the transmission went into reverse as it shall, but not into a forward gear. After shifting lots of times, this problem is solved. So I went on the street. But.., there was no shifting up. I browsed through the shop manual at the trouble shooting but found not exact my problem. Just : Transmission operates only in 2nd speed ( DR range ) or only in 3rd and 4th speeds. As a cause stands there : Sticking valves in inner valve body or governor. And as correction : Completely disassemble and inspect valve body assembly and governor assembly.
Has someone an other idea or is this the way I have to go? And does this mean, that I have to remove the transmission?

Kind regards

Thomas

65vistacruiser

There are a number of potential issues which could cause your trans, after 20 years of sitting, not to up-shift.

After making sure the fluid level is correct, the next area to check is the throttle linkage from the carb down to the trans. This linkage may be rusted in place and stuck in the wide open throttle position, not allowing the trans to up-shift.
Make sure the linkage is there, and is free to move when the throttle is opened, and comes back when closed.

You may have stuck valves in the valve body or governor as the old fluid turns gummy after many years of dis-use. This condition may ease itself or may require a thorough cleaning of the Gov or VB. The job can be done with trans in car.
Rust, if present in the trans, can cause things to stick even worse.

The rubber seals inside that trans can get so stiff they crack and break apart.

Ozzie

As mentioned, the likely problem is sticking in the control valve assembly or governor valves. Sitting for 20 years is a problem. If it's the same fluid that came with the car, it's over 60 years old. You might try changing all the fluid first, including the torus. Be sure to use the proper fluid. If that doesn't work you'll have to get into the control sections for cleaning.

TomB

Hi VistaCruise and Ozzie,

well, as I started the car first some weeks ago to get it out of the garage, I checked the oil and there was no one at the dip stick. So I filled up with ATF A. Was red, of course. Today I have checked it again, the level was the same as I filled it up but... the color was now yellow and it smells like really old grease.

Is it enough just to change the fluid or do I need a special cleaning fluid?

Kind regards

Thomas

65vistacruiser

I would advise against adding any "cleaning fluid". If others have had good results with a particular product please do chime in...

But certainly do change as much of the existing fluid as possible, as Ozzie said, open the drain plugs on the Torus as well since at least half the fluid stays in there.
The original fluid contained Whale oil and has a Yellowish color and funny smell, it can become very sticky with age. Interesting to note: I've read that some Japanese car makers still provide a fluid with Whale oil for their CVT's. (continuously variable transmission)
I've had good results filling Hydra-Matic trans with ordinary Dexron III.

TomB, you didn't mention anything about the throttle linkage. That can be a very simple fix. If it is stuck in place simply free it up and lubricate the pivot points with light oil.

Rocketowner

If you just drained the plug in the bottom of the pan,you just changed less that 1/2 of the fluid.You need to drain the torque converter also and refill again. X2 on examining the throttle linkage,and it can be the governor also. That model Hydramatics may not be as smooth shifting as some automatics, but they are tough.Best of Luck, Larry

TomB

@ Vistacruiser : Well, I have not mentioned if I have checked the linkage, because I made my last post, after I have read your answers the first time, before I checked the fluid. But I will do this, of course.

@ Rocketowner : I have not changed the fluid, just added. Actually I thought, the owner before us did this. But seems not. Or it is much too old now. Yes, often people forget the converter to drain.

I forgot to say, that I had problems to get a forward gear : Just rear was possible. So after trying a lot between R and Dr, it worked. So I went on the street.

In my original shop manual, they suggest an ATF Type A, this should be the Suffix A which is also used in the power steering. But perhaps the old one was different.

This car was rescued in the late 90s from a junk yard in CA, standing on to others cars and was too good to go as junk. I bought it from a guy, but don't know, if he ever has driven this car and how it worked.

So I will change anycase the ATF and check the linkage.

Will come back to you soon.

Regards

Thomas

TomB

Seems that the linkage is working as it shall.

TomB

I will now order new ATF fluid and will hope, that it will work. If I have to clean the valves, do I have to drain again the ATF? I guess not from the converter but from the oil pan?

Regards

Thomas

TomB

Hello again!

This weekend I had finally time to change the ATF. But… this solves not my problem.

Dou you have hints I can go forward now? And how?

Kind regards

Thomas

Ozzie

That time you mentioned a yellow color to the fluid, I was concerned. If you did a complete fluid change, run the engine/transmission some and continue checking the condition of the new fluid. It should remain the same as when you put it in; same color and same viscosity. If anything changes there is still contamination of some sort. If there is a change you may have to operate it some and then do another change or a disassembly of the transmission. Flushing with fluid changes would be the safest way to flush it.

TomB

Hi Ozzie,

thanks for your answer. I have just checked the color of the new fluid and it is still the same as it just came out of the container.
What I forgot to mention is, that on the dipstick was a dark red colored thin crust. I removed this of course now. If something like this is at the valves...

Kind regards

Thomas

Ozzie

Yes, you may have hit upon the problem. If that crust formed in a critical location within the transmission it may prevent something from moving which needs to move to function correctly. We could hope that the presence of the fresh fluid may cause it to dissolve, but that we cannot know.

TomB

What would you suggest to me?

Perhaps I have to inspect the valves. I have the shop manuel but I am not sure, where I can check them, move them or something like that.

Thomas

Ozzie

If you have enough time you could let the new fluid try to work (soak) on the "crust". And run it some; the warmth may also help. If that doesn't do anything you'll probably have to do some disassembly. Before doing that you should become as familiar as possible with the transmission from the manual and be sure to have any needed gaskets or seals before you start. Automatic transmissions require a lot of careful work. Carelessness usually results in something that doesn't work properly.

Tedd Thompson

At this point it may be wise to take it to a transmission shop and have them drop the pan and do a inspection for you. If there is a bunch of crud (band material) at the bottom of the pan you might be of need of a rebuild. After all there is a reason the car was left for 20 years in the first place.... Tedd

TomB

Thanks for your answers.

Ozzie : Well, I have “driven” some miles on car jacks. But it is still the same problem. And after I have started and go into reverse, I had no forward gear. Even in N the wheels spin as I would still be in R. But I can stop them by foot. So it has now power in N, just spinning. After a while with a bit more engine speed the transmission turned into forward. Then the transmission changed between Dr and R when I put the lever in the positions. But shifts not up in Dr. At the speedometer I had more then 15mph, up to 20. But then the engine speed was too high more me. I can’t do it on the streets here because the car is until now not street legal here.

Tedd : I could inspect the pan by myself. I have a car lift. The problem is, that it is not easy to find a real specialist for these old transmissions in the near. And if you have found one, they take lots and lots of money. I did the whole restoration by myself until now and I guess, that I could handle also this transmission. But I always ask people who know perhaps the problem, so that I come on the right track on an easier way.

Kind regards

Thomas

Tedd Thompson

Thomas, your post reads as though it is being computer translated. Are you located in Europe? If so the slant pan transmission was used by Roles Royce in the late fifties and early sixties, there might be someone still around that knows something about these transmissions in your area,(still might be expensive). My guess from your discription is the bands are gone and your transmission needs a good cleaning and a rebuild but its hard to tell from so far away.... Tedd

TomB

Really?

Hi Tedd,

no, it was translated by myself but didn’t know, that it is so bad… I was often in USA but it seems that my English has also sticky valves.

Yes, I know. I own a 1972 Bentley T1, it has the Hydramatic as you said. But it is the same problem, the next RR service is 250km far away and they do just RR and Bentley. And of course… $$$. I am working at old cars since 20 years and so I decided to rebuild the hydraulic system of my Bentley. With success! And was even in the deep of the engine : All inlet valve push rods where bent.

What I would like to say : I am not afraid to work at this transmission. With less work as possible, of course. But your hint to remove the transmission oil pan to have a closer look to the bands would be a good start for me.

Yes, I am located in Europe. It is Germany.

I have just tested it again : I started the engine, put the lever in Dr and the first gear was in. Then I put the lever to “R”. Then the rear gear was in. Put it back into “Lo” but the rear gear was still in. Even in “N” the car started to go backwards. But not with the power as it has in “R”. I switched between Lo and R, the idle speed was a bit faster until now, and suddenly the first gear was in with a “clonk”. After this, it was possible to switch between first and rear gear.

Kind regards

Thomas

Ozzie

Hi Tom,

Since you seem to be confident about being able to work on the transmission, it seems to me that you have two possible approaches. First you could wait to see if the fresh fluid will dissolve the crust you observed. I'm not much of a Christian, but this may require patience more than that fellow in the Bible named Job. Beside being on the dipstick it is probably also on critical internals of the transmission. The control valve assembly would be my best guess as a problem area. You could, as suggested, remove the pan for an inspection. Of course, this would require the draining of the fluid. If the observed crust is widespread, complete disassembly might be required. I have a Hydra-matic service manual with many photos which has been much help for overhauls. Paul Marsh Company; 520 West Fort Street; Detroit, Michigan. Manual number HM 1001; copyright 1956. I am sure that it is "out of print", but might be available on the used market. The manual speaks about cleaning using "cleaning fluid', "degreasers", or a "degreasing unit". If you find more "crust" in the pan area, you could run an experiment to see what fluid will dissolve it. The problem might be that whatever dissolves the crust will also dissolve seals, o-rings, and gaskets. Hence, then your only option would be a complete overhaul. This would require some specialized tools which are difficult to find and a overhaul or master kit before starting. Here is one place you can find the kits: http://www.fusickautomotiveproducts....ileCatalog.pdf
If you complete the overhaul successfully and everything works correctly, then you will likely become one of Germany's experts on the old Hydra-matics and may be in demand almost as much as Wernher von Braun was.

d2_willys

The reverse clutch on these transmissions have a bad habit of sticking. This would cause no forward gears. To fix, start engine, then shift between Lo and R while the RPM is around 800-1000. Do this shifting back and forth no more than 5 times. By then the reverse clutch should be released.

Tedd Thompson

What d2 ****** said . he is the guru of slant pans and has forgotten more than what I think I know.... Tedd

TomB

Hello again,

thank you for your answers. Today I have removed the oil pan of the transmission. I have found some small parts. These came from the oil screen. You may see some spots on the photos where you can see a “broken” rim at the screen. Perhaps it is a cork gasket. Or just "crunchy dirt". Same as on the pump screen. And then you can see on one photo, that just a little spot of the screen is visible. All other is full with dirt. I wonder that it worked, that it was possible to suck oil through all this dirt.

Well, I am not sure what to do now. To do it myself, there is the problem with special tools as Ozzie said. This one is interesting to see :

You Tube

I will sit on the couch this evening and hope for some inspiration by “Papa Olds”, where we have a photo in the living room.

Kind regards

Thomas

Ozzie

Hi Tom,

You have a big cleaning job ahead, as a minimum. The You Tube is a good help on assembly.

Ozzie

TomB

Hi Ozzie,



I am just trying to clean the screen. It is possible with lacquer thinner. It needs time to soften the crust but it works. It seems, that this is the first part, which is not available.



Tom