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so my little swap meet built 355 ran a best of 12.68 @ 105.73 with a 1.80 60 ft.
i plan on running this combo one more season before we put the ported headded 355 in. My build is pretty basic and i think with some mods i could go even faster.
This the current build
355 Olds in my 72 cutlass
10 to 1 compression speed pro flat tops
lunati voodoo cam 522/539 lift 233/241 duration @ .050 lift
Prw roller tip rocker (7) and one comp cams roller tip rocker
Pro gear timing chain
#6 heads done by rocket racing just bowl work 2.07 in. 1.63 ex.
full length headers ,x pipe
34 degrees of timing on 93 octane
edelbrock performer rpm intake
holley 3310 750 cfm carb box stock
proform hei dist
crank is .010/.010, bore is .030 over bored with a tq. plate , it was balanced
Engine built by me
backed by a th350 Built by me and 3.73 gears out back
Here is what im thinking on doing.
( now my car will strictly be a street car and per my standards i will not gear it up or throw more converter in it. Currently its 3.73 and 2900 stall . so dont even throw that out there because it aint happening.)
#1 member 67cutlassfreak suggested i try the street dominator intake vs the rpm. I like that idea but it will cost me to have the intake milled and i will be for those heads but we can call that a sacrificial expense.
#2 . Im thinking of welding the center divider and filling the heat risers on the heads. probably doing the valve job too since heat will warp the seats from what i have been told.
#3. full roller rockers. probably going to use ford rockers as im using 3/8ths studs
#4. fuel cooler. cheap and simple and im half way there as i made a can already.
#5 A ram air set up mainly for fresh air. My under hood temps are surprisingly high.
Now fully knowing some of these things may be for ***** n giggles like the fuel can some i think can give us gains like the holley intake and the roller rockers . im curious about the heads. Im making all these changes over the winter. I know its not beneficial to make a lot of changes but im after lower e/t's and i hate messing with stuff constantly so i do work in bulk not sessions. i didnt turn a wrench on my car all season even at the track.
What's the general thought on this ????? I have an engine thats ready to go thats superior to what i have now but 12.68's from this little 350 has left me wondering if we can squeeze more from it and not kill its street status.
Last edited by coppercutlass; November 22nd, 2015 at 11:31 AM.
The thing that jumps out at me is that your 60' time could be quicker, considering your ET and MPH. My first suggestion would be a little more gear and a little more converter, because they both will help hide a multitude of tuning sins. But you say you don't want that ......
So you need to figure out what's not letting the engine perform its best right off the line. It could be something as simple as adjusting the carb's squirt and secondary opening (slower's often better than faster), or playing with the timing curve. It could also be something as simple as wheel spin. But if the whole engine is built for higher RPMs and you have already optimized carb and timing and traction, then you're stuck.
One thing that WILL help your 60' is outside air induction, as you suggested. My car slows a tenth and a half in the quarter mile when I remove the OAI adapter, with much of that coming in the first 330. So it's the cooler air, not ram air, that's doing the magic.
Well i know the converter and gear will help there is no denying that but again i am running a short tire at the track to bump it up i just dont wanna kill its manners which i think i found that fine point im happy with . The carb is box stock . The timing curve is coming in as fast as it can. I might lock the timing out and have a retard switch to fire it up. I also want to try a double pumper i have a vac, secondaries and i think a stronger off the line fuel delivery will help. I really have not done much tuning. we went from running a 13.09 to a 12.68 with a simple carb swap and going to electric fans and water pump. along with more seat time and consistent shifting.
For reference, I did a motor for my friend years ago that went in his full dress 84 Delta (3800lbs). The car had small valve unported heads (#4s). It went 12.74 @ 103mph.......with a 1.68 60ft. All of the ET is in the short track.
It was a streetable car with a 275 (28" tall) on the back and 4.10 gears coupled with a loose 10" converter.
I really don't think you will gain much by doing all the things you mentioned.....you might see a high 12.50s pass in real good air but that is probably it. You will be adding HP, but you still need to get the car out of the hole faster to see any real ET gains at the track.
I really don't see why the car can't be completely streetable with more converter. I went for a ride in Adam Ruger's g-body street car this year. 5000 stall, cruising the streets and you wouldn't even know it. It's a mid 10 second car.
I'm not suggesting a 5000 stall converter, but I think you can afford to get something a little looser and see some big gains at the track, and still be able to drive to the track.
Also, a street dominator might fit by slightly slotting the holes, so you won't have to hack up an intake. I got one I am putting on my junkyard 350. I did a mockup yesterday and it ALMOST fits. This is with #7 heads that have been milled .060". Slightly massaging the bolt holes will line it up.
I talked to adam and he seemed surprised I drove my car to the track and it kept its cool. Its a bit of a haul. I'm sure more converter is fine but I'm cruising around 3000 rpm . Too much slip means more heat. I don't think adam will take that long of a drive based on what he said. I'm not looking for crazy gains. I will be happy to dip into the 12.5's.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 15th, 2015 at 04:36 PM.
I'm not saying a high stall can't be tight on the street. But it cost money lol. My current 10 in. converter came from an ebay company . Cost 180 bucks lol. Pretty good for what it is local converter shop said it should be 2900 in my car with my gear yadadada and all that stuff. I just bought an acc tq. Converter for 100 bucks with 100 miles. If what their pr. Guy told me is still going on I can have the 3000 stall unit re flashed for 60 bucks. I might try 3500 . Idk. I can't afford a 700 dollar converter lol. Trying cheap stuff first. I'm more willing to try converter than gear. Because as it is the thbing screams doing 70 mph which I drive my crap a lot.
12's for a street driven sbo ain't bad at all. The ported headed 355 should be even faster than this. This is just a swap meet built 355. Nothing fancy. Will not go bbo . I'm not really wanting to go much faster but I will do what I can. My goals where 12.9's with this combo and I went 12.68 with minimal tuning. I'm sure with more converter more gear we can go bottom 12's. I don't see too many 12 sec. Sbo's (355) running 12's with what most would consider a street gear 3.73 and a street friendly converter. That was my goal. I know you gave up on your sbo but I doubt it would have gone as fast as mine. The only are its been ligtened up is the interior. Everything else is steel no swiss cheese of any areas. I'm a die hard small block guy
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 15th, 2015 at 10:03 AM.
I'm running a set of mickey thompson drag radials 275-50-15. Next year we will be trying nitto 555 drag radials as they have a full tread pattern and have a street friendly compound. I have seen 11 sec cars hook on them. As for the trans break I have given it though. And I would need to build a beefy th350 along with making sure the old 10 bolt can handle it and a good driveshaft.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 15th, 2015 at 10:15 AM.
I ran them on 15x7's safely. They are not on the street. I run 275 60 15's on the street. I crashed my car on the way back from the track like 5 years ago on the drag radials. Got caught in a downpour on the highway.
Just to explain something to all. Guys like to talk down to the sbo guys. That's why I'm so stuck on it being a street friendly car. I don't wanna push that threshold that makes it un streetable. In a way this to prove a point. Sbo's can be fast , streetable and affordable. That's why I have given my self that restriction to gear and converter and keeping my combo sweet and simple. I'm also not some expert this is only my 3rd olds engine I built . Its not that hard. I'm here to say if I can build this why can't anyone else do it. 80 rocket and 67cutlassfreak put a 355 ., I belive into the 11.teen's . That's a race build that also not very exotic when compared to other race engines .
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 15th, 2015 at 10:45 AM.
I too am a SBO guy and will never run a BBO. Way too many bottom end problems and seem to take a lot more know how to get right. More converter should definitely help. Every car that really runs has 3500+ stall and 4 something gearing, you are moving pretty good for what it is. I will be happy with high 13's out of my too small cam, converter and gear to run fast 350.
Thats my dilemma . Im very comfortable with its street manners. crusing rpms and the amount of slip i get from the converter which is minimal around town. One night we put 120 miles on it just cruising around from cruise night to cruise night when i say street car i mean it lol. What i need to do and what im willing to do are 2 different things which is why im willing to travel the path less traveled to get gains. To most it would't make sense but i want to work within certain parameters.
With stock stall and 3:73 rear and an OVERDRIVE trans my car is cranked up at 70 so I can imagine your set up. 4+ gearing is going to make it obnoxious to drive.
Two ideas- a bit out of the box
If you can keep your current intake manifold (are you heads milled? I read you considered an intake swap but would need milling) and have it modified for fuel rails maybe consider EFI? You are flirting with 12.5s with an box stock carb- imagine what it would be capable of with a VERY tune able system. Throw in all the other benefits of EFI as well.
-If the price point of EFI makes it a no go. What about a small shot of nitrous? It keeps its current manners until you turn on the bottle at a much lower cost than EFI.
Efi is not in my budget lol. Im sticking with all motor for my goals. I got a line on an intake and for the price it can be put to work. I dont think im going to mess with the heads at all. i do plan on pulling the engine apart and inspecting it and re assembling it and upgrading to arp head bolts.
80 rocket and 67cutlassfreak put a 355 ., I belive into the 11.teen's . That's a race build that also not very exotic when compared to other race engines .
Me and Dave thought it was a race build too. That was until I measured the combustion chambers and found it was only 10:1 compression (after the fact).
I built this car in two months time from May 14' to July 14'. I raced it the rest of 14'. It was a throw together deal. Like I said, this wasn't building an engine in a few months, it was the whole car......rear end, chassis, engine, wiring.....everything.
We overlooked checking the heads. We assumed one thing, and ended up with another. Had I known, I would have run pump gas since the cutlassefi cam supplied was very generous on duration.
The cam worked great, as well as the rest of the combo which was a stock bottom end except for pistons.
Everything worked well and we went 11.13 @ 118mph.
I wish I could say that was a race build, but it wasn't. The 5500 stall converter and 4.56 gears made it a race car. But, I believe that combo could work well on the street with a Holley Street Dom intake, or an RPM, as opposed to the Victor. Tame it down with gearing and converter and you got yourself a heck of an 11 second small block Olds that is street friendly.
Copper, Have you considered a 700R4 with a 3500 lock up converter ? Give you the launch gearing and higher stall you could use and all the best cruising in D or OD locked up tight .
By the time I build one and get it figured out I would much rather get a gear vendors unit. I can build a nice th350 then just install the over drive unit. Make it fit under the tunnel and get the driveshaft cut. If I had the money I would do the unit and 4.10 gears or 4.33 gears no problem .
Love what you are doing.
I'll just throw out a few easy ideas, not sure of these items on your car.
Power steering? belt on?
Do you have the fuel line shielded from underhood heat?
Carb spacers, 4 hole/open/1 inch or 2 inch?
What air cleaner do you have on it? Can you double stack it?
Does your exhaust pipes run out to a low pressure area like behind the bumper? Fuel line and tank shielded from exhaust pipes?
Have you tried any camshaft advance? 2/4/6 degrees?
Can you try 1.7 rocker arms on the intake side?
Just wondering.
Jim
I have manual steering , I plan on running a fuel cool can and i didnt think about a sheild but its simple enough , i have a half inch spacer , i run an open x pipe at the track i unbolt my mufflers. I have a flwo through lid , i dont wanna advance the cam as its already 4 degrees advanced , and the 1.7 rockers might mess things up as i bearly have clearance between the retainer and the guide. but i might address that and the 1.7 rocker idea i like.
Thanks for the kind words and suggestion guys. I Gotta keep things simple and sweet . Im very very happy with the cars' performance . It went beyond my expectations to be honest . I would have been happy with a 12.9 sec time. But the car kept getting faster and faster . The more we drive it more seat time the better it got better . I think my 60 ft. time improved after i removed my sway bar. In videos you can see how much faster the chassis reacts . The cool weather has helped alot too .
here is a video of my 12.68 pass incase others have not seen the other thread.
last minute decision to hit the track this week since my high school buddies all got together. ran 12.63 @ 105.59 mph. I had the fastest car today out of the bunch. put the spank on the new mustangs 2 of my buddies had.
when we say street car we mean it lol. drove 60 miles there and 60 miles back. Today also reminded me that i dont want any more gear at all. any more and i wouldnt like it.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 18th, 2015 at 02:19 PM.
The right (high-stall) converter makes a car more streetable, not less. Even with a higher stall, slippage should be minimal at cruise. While cruising, the only resistance the converter feels is from the wind. It won't slip until you get on it. Consider Coan or one of the other high-quality manufacturers. Custom doesn't cost much more than off-the-shelf.
Yeah i have a boss hog acc unit im gonna try outi know a good unit will work well. I dont have that kind of money to blow on a converter. Last i remember a good unit will run 700. what will truly be the gain ????? Id rather try other things that cost less . For now im happy.
I think converters vary a lot. Dr Dan on ROP swears by a PTC 10" for the 2004R which I believe is around $400. That is almost the price, most are much more than my cheapy 350 HP rated unit that stalls at 2300, the PTC is 2800 and tight on the street. He says it his deadly consistent at the track. It will be one of the upgrades with my stroker. Shop around, there are deals out there.
Ok. So i have come up with a list of what im doing this winter to the car.
The engine will get the following
1. arp head bolts
2. inspect bearings and clearances
3. swap to street dominator intake
4. Weld center divider on heads , fill the heat risers , cut the guides down and go to viton seals . probably will also do a valve job once its all done.
5. get the proper push rods. current ones are 8.5 need 8.4. using 8.4 on one cylinder to aid a lifter issue that is mainly a thing on cold starts.
6. Fix the lifter that sticks. probably buying one and gutting the old one and re building it.
7. put on full roller rockers
The trans will get an inspection and nothing will change there.
The rear end im having it looked at as i think i may have hurt it last weekend at the strip. been in there for 6 years i think its time for some upgrades lol. No gear change !!!!!
Im also doing relocation brackets on the rear for better rack bite.
Im doing a ram air set up and fuel cool can.
FWIW the lifter issue i mentioned is something i have been running as is all summer. Whats going is when the heads where done they where set up for 550 lift . after checking that was not the case. what i was left with was .020 of clearance which is not nearly enough. the lifter was sticking when cold and what happened was i bent a pushrod and broke a rocker arm do to the lifter being stuck up and it not having any clearance with the lifter not compressing ., it might not make sense but i spent alot of time on this issue figuring it out and thats what was going . I also found out my pushrods where too long. so i went with an 8.4 on that cylinder as a trial run to see what would happen. Nothing broke and i figured with the amount of miles i put on it if something was hurt i would know by now so i left it as it was. Now i get to properly address the issue.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 20th, 2015 at 11:04 AM.
I am going to try your suggestion of using a 1.7 on he intake. I'm deciding against doing head work. All I'm doing is cutting the guide down ( which I have the cutter) and going to viton seals. So I will be able to run a 1.7 and not run into clearance issues.
BTW, forgot to ask...
What is your cranking compression (compression test)-
What were your shift points?
120 miles round trip to the track with a 12 second car is nothing to sneeze at.
Jim
I dont wanna check the compression lol . i only wanna check it if something is going wrong lol. Im shifting at 6300 rpm and i tried lower and found the higher the shift point the better for my stuff. It really makes me think if i can get this set up into the lower 12's my next set up should be faster. I have a 355 im building or have been building for a few years now and it has lighter pistons , fully ported heads , higher compression , just better components all around.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 25th, 2015 at 06:20 PM.
Yeah, the cam and heads are gonna want to run up there. Just thinking with the larger cam, are you leaving power on the table due to the late closing intake valve? I'd want cranking compression around 190-195 psi. Just me. It wants to run 6300 and with 3.73 gears I am sure you're not at that rpm going through the traps. That is why I mentioned advancing the cam.
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I think 12.30's or even 12.20's are possible with what you have already.
If you do not weld up the dividers, tell me that you do have crossover blocks between the manifold and heads. Cheep and easy.
Have you milled the Performer RPM already?
Jim
October 13th, 2015, 06:37 PM
