When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Hello everyone, I'm new here and need some help for our car. It's a 72 Vista Cruiser, that we bought 4 years ago to be my daily driver. I took a job far away, and so it sat. For six months at first, then it got used a little bit here and there over the last couple of years. Now we need it as a daily driver. Its been sitting now for nine months (had our first child and there was just no time to deal with it). It is a stock 350 Olds Rocket with a 2bbl rochester. It had a tap on the right bank, which I was told might be a broken bridge, or rocker.
I opened up the valve cover and all the rockers and bridges were good. But one push rod had no pressure on the rocker arm - about 1/8" slack. Am I to assume that the lifter collapsed? I was told that the engine was rebuilt before I got it, so it might be a safe assumption that the cam is ok, or is it?
So my main question is now what do I do? I'm a decent mechanic, but no heavy duty experience. People on you tube talk about flushing the engine with penetrating oil after putting B12 down the push rods for several days. Would this work? Others say just pull the intake and replace the lifters, but then others say you'll fry the cam very quickly - so which one is it? Can you convert to roller lifters?
I just don't know what to do exactly since everyone talks about what a collapsed lifter is but noone says what the solution is. I know I'm new here but I would appreciate any input. (I also know now that it was a bonehead move to let it sit for so long. I had a pontiac catalina with a 400 for years that would sit for stretches and it was always fine, so i thought it was cool.)
Simple solution, pull the intake and inspect your lifter and cam lobe. Running the engine with a bad lifter will result in a lot more money and time spent on your issue.
Yes if you pop the lifter out. You may need to rotate the engine by hand to see all 360 degrees of it. I would pull and inspect all of the lifters and lobes as its a simple exercise and your already there.
yes if you pop the lifter out. You may need to rotate the engine by hand to see all 360 degrees of it. I would pull and inspect all of the lifters and lobes as its a simple exercise and your already there.
Is it possible to see the cam lobe pretty clearly when the intake manifold is off?
Clearly?, No. But with the intake off you'll be able to pull the lifter(s) and see what's what. An eighth inch is a lot, otherwise I would suggest trying some GM EOS oil additive to see if it frees up. Are you sure that pushrod isn't bent?
Is it possible to see the cam lobe pretty clearly when the intake manifold is off?
Yes, you can get a decent look at it, through the hole the lifter was in.
Also, the bottom of the lifter will tell the tale.
BUT, before you do that, remove the rocker bridge on that unit and have a good close look at the pivot surfaces (underside of pivot / upper side of rocker). These can wear surprisingly, especially the original aluminum pivots, and when they do, it will look as you describe.
An $8 set of pivots beats pulling the manifold any day.
That being said, if the rocker pivot is good, then a wiped lobe or collapsed lifter are possible - in general, cams will wipe their lobes on engines that have been fairly recently rebuilt, as your has been.
If the lifter is collapsed, it also may be able to be disassembled and fixed - there ain't much to it inside.
Don't worry about having left the car sit - these cars can usually sit for decades and then start and run fine, as your Poncho did. Their lifters are the same internally anyway.
I thought the eos additive was just to add the anti wear agents that are no longer in oil. In the past my dad has used marvel mystery oil mixed with seafoam added ontop of the regual amount of oil when firing up an engine that has sat for sometime. Just to make sure anything that has been gunked up will de gunk .
Eos is a breakin additive. With 1/8 in slack it has a problem if the bridge is not broken. I would not chance running the engine without seeing whats going on.
I thought the eos additive was just to add the anti wear agents that are no longer in oil. In the past my dad has used marvel mystery oil mixed with seafoam added ontop of the regual amount of oil when firing up an engine that has sat for sometime. Just to make sure anything that has been gunked up will de gunk .
What's missing from modern oil is zinc dialkyddithiophosphate (ZDDP). This is the most common reason freshly-rebuilt engines wipe out their cam lobes. I believe the oil companies deemed ZDDP unnecessary because nobody except for a bunch of old muscle car guys has engines with flat tappets anymore, so its extra lubrication properties aren't required.
Which opened up the door for the specialty manufacturers to put it back in and charge ten bucks a quart. Fun, huh?
I believe the oil companies deemed ZDDP unnecessary because nobody except for a bunch of old muscle car guys has engines with flat tappets anymore, so its extra lubrication properties aren't required.
The EPA deemed ZDDP unwelcome because it degrades catalytic converters.
I'm aware of the specifics of what's gone from todays oils and why. The reason I mentioned it was because someone mentioned to use eos to free up the lifter and if I remembered correct the gm eos was just what gm sold for the zddp additive .
You can get it for less than that if you buy the Lucas break-in additive.
And they reduced the content in regular oil so that people wouldn't put it into newer cars.
The higher ZDDP formulas all say "Classic" or "Racing" or similar.
Ok, so the bridge is not broken, and arms and bases look good, and have no excessive wear. I had a new set, to compare to and they looked the same.
I also looked at the push rod and rolled it on a table. It looked perfectly straight.
So I will take the advice here and pull the intake manifold and get a look at the lifter and lobe. But bear with me and sorry if I ask some silly questions but then what?
1. If the lifter can be rebuilt, how? If I can't, then what?
2. When I look at the cam? What am looking for exactly? If I can't see the lobe, how do i manually turn the engine over?
I'm hoping for the best, but I really don't won't to pull an engine. I have no time with the newborn.....
I wouldn't exactly say that a lifter can be rebuilt, but if it's gunked up, you can take it apart and clean it, and it should be fine.
On the cam, the surface of both the lobe and the lifter should be smooth and shiny. The edges may be dark and slightly rough, as they don't usually make full contact with the lifter and that's okay.
The lobe should not be rough, gouged, or scraped, and at its full lift the lifter should come up just as high as all the others.
You turn the engine by putting a breaker bar with a 1 1/8" socket on the end of the crank and turning.
Ok, so the bridge is not broken, and arms and bases look good, and have no excessive wear. I had a new set, to compare to and they looked the same.
I also looked at the push rod and rolled it on a table. It looked perfectly straight.
So I will take the advice here and pull the intake manifold and get a look at the lifter and lobe. But bear with me and sorry if I ask some silly questions but then what?
1. If the lifter can be rebuilt, how? If I can't, then what?
2. When I look at the cam? What am looking for exactly? If I can't see the lobe, how do i manually turn the engine over?
I'm hoping for the best, but I really don't won't to pull an engine. I have no time with the newborn.....
Once you pull the lifter you can look down into each bore and see the cam lobes. Examine each of the bottom of the lifters and make sure they are not concave in shape. As Eric stated extreme wear is easily identified.
I didn't mean to imply that the EOS would cure an eighth inch of play, oh my no
But when Mare and I were on our maiden voyage, I started having a ticking. The local GM dealer suggested the EOS and it cleared it up. Sticky lifter maybe.
Finally once Easter wound down, I got the manifold off, and the lifter was just toast. I said there was at least 1/8" of lash - well that is how much was worn off the lifter. I can see the cam pretty clearly through the lifter hole, and the hole in the valley, but I haven't seen the lobe yet. I don't have a socket to turn the crank. Gonna buy one tonight and try to get a look at the lobe. (Someone here said 1-1/8"? Does it matter which way I turn it?)
So, I'm to assume that the cam is probaly dead and there is no return here? Replacing a cam is a little out of my comfort zone. Does this mean a full rebuid? Aaaarggh. I did not need this right now...
Can you pull and post a pic of the 2 next to them? Why do those lifters look different from each other. Not talking about the wear, the oil grove is different. With that much wear, I would say your cam is toast and a lot of metal has been sent into the engine. You can bump the engine around with the starter.
Finally once Easter wound down, I got the manifold off, and the lifter was just toast. I said there was at least 1/8" of lash - well that is how much was worn off the lifter. I can see the cam pretty clearly through the lifter hole, and the hole in the valley, but I haven't seen the lobe yet. I don't have a socket to turn the crank. Gonna buy one tonight and try to get a look at the lobe. (Someone here said 1-1/8"? Does it matter which way I turn it?)
So, I'm to assume that the cam is probaly dead and there is no return here? Replacing a cam is a little out of my comfort zone. Does this mean a full rebuid? Aaaarggh. I did not need this right now...
Pull the plugs first makes it easier to rotate engine. Rebuild! Depends on how much metal is in the oil. Pull oil filter cut it open and check it for metal and brass looking material. Hmm those lifters are different!! Can you pull them all and take a black sharpie and number them driver and passenger start at front of engine work your way back that way you can put them back in order if cam is not flat! My guess is the cam is okay and you have a miss matched lifter!
Last edited by wr1970; April 6th, 2015 at 11:20 AM.
I wiped the lobes off of a couple lifters in a freshly rebuilt chevy 350. Well, my former mechanic wiped the lobes off. I had the motor torn down and cleaned up, after which it was assembled with a new cam and lifters, broke in properly with a zinc additive. It ran great from then on.
The lifters in the picture would have me concerned. It's an indicator of the quality of the previous rebuild. Was it built using new parts or was it built using what was left over from previous projects along with parts off the floor.
I also would be concerned about the way the worn lobe has little chunks missing from the sides near the top. Those chunks went into the motor. IMO The main bearings should be checked as well as the cylinder walls.
I had a friend call me over to analyze his recently rebuilt G400 a while back. Ran rough, bouncy vacuum. Pulled rocker covers to see one valve not moving much.
"gotta change the cam and lifters" I opines. Your lobe is missing...
"what? oh dear God, no" he protests, can't I just replace the lifters?
No, your cam has no lobe there.
It was not that bad. Did it with engine in the car.
You, yourself, may be luckier
If that one lifter is just different due to poor workmanship, and *if* the lobe itself is not all chewed away, maybe a new lifter or two [or a whole set] and you are good to go for a while. Worst case, it's not better, and you are back to cam and another set of lifters needed.
Check the cam lobes with finger and light/ eyesight. Usually if the lobe is gone, the finger will detect that right away. Feel a nice smooth good one, then feel the suspect one. Turn the cam to various positions, but not when the finger is in there.
"extreme wear is easily identified."
===
As seen in post #25....
Though I agree that much of what we see may not be WORN away but just plain the wrong part.
PS any competent assembler would have caught that in checking the lifter preload even if the other idiot put the [wrong] lifter[s] in.
Last edited by Octania; April 6th, 2015 at 05:32 PM.
I'm suspicious of that lifter for sure. What's the history of the car? Did the previous owner mention any work done on it when you bought it four years ago?
ok, so first off. The lifter was worn down, and the cam lobe was worn down to a nice round nubbin. Sorry I never replied to any of the kind responses here, but I was just so pissed off, and well I had a 1 year child at the time that took most of time.
I bit the bullet, pulled the engine and had paid to have it rebuilt. I put it back in July of 2015. Finished in August of 2015.
Then, in November of 2015, I went on a long trip, and well it turns out my timing was off and I burnt up a cylinder. It was covered by warranty, but had to pull the engine again. Ugg.
Got the re-rebuilt engine back in in February of 2016, and along comes a second child - so no time to deal with the now leaky rusty exhaust.
Fast forward to March 2017. Here I am, new exhaust, new engine, timing set, new carb, and I hope to start using it as my daily commuting car - 100 miles per day.
Sooo, I've been doing some road trials, and the damn thing is just vibrating over 60 miles an hour. It the same amount of vibration from 60 to 95. Note that when I first got the car, the driveshaft was bent and I had to straighten it out. The shocks were all new 6 years ago. Front tires are 1 year old Coopers, back tire ares very low mileage 7 year old tires. All new ball joints up front. What could it be? With all that driving - it will most definitely drive me crazy.
As for the vibration, I'd have the wheels rebalanced, and if that doesn't do it, I'd consider bringing the driveshaft to a different place to be balanced, or just replacing it.
Oddball unlikely vibration cause that's a bitch to find: slightly bent rear axle.
The rebuild was done by the Engine Shop in Middletown, NY. Very reputable builder, and very popular since the Orange County Raceway is Middletown. (Summer Saturdays are very loud! I live 3 miles from the raceway and it vibrates the windows on our house!)
I was driving up 17 north, uphill, for about an hour at like 75 - and there was just a god awful tap sound. The guy at the shop said it was a cylinder.
Hmm, rear axle eh? Someone along the way said my axle looked like a buick... Maybe it got swapped out at some point with the bent driveshaft. Where would I even get a new driveshaft?
You can make a post in the 'Parts Wanted' sub-forum. In addition to a bent driveshaft, it could be a bent wheel, a bent Axle (inside the housing) and a bad tire.........
Hmmm, Ok then. I'll start with the easy stuff, bent wheel and balancing. Then move onto the driveshaft and axle. They can't be that hard to swap out? (I'm laughing as I write this......)
March 29th, 2015, 03:26 PM
Well - its an official mess
