67 Cutlass Freak

Here you will see I have used the 60 degree stone to establish the width of the seat to valve contact area. Grinding up from the bottom.
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I went with .060" contact area because that is suppossed to be good for a long lasting street type valve job. The thinner you go will give you slightly more performance, and wear out faster, but I don't think you will see any gains on a flow bench. All out racers will run extremely narrow contact areas. Next I will use two different 75 degree angle stones. The first one will actually show me how much further back I can pull the bowl. The second is for final dressing. Bill said in his book, he likes to see the 60 degree cut width about .060" width above the 75 degree cut.
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5:01 CST

MDchanic

Damn, I do like this thread.

- Eric

67 Cutlass Freak

So here you can see the indentation in the bowl from the first 75 degree cut. I will use the fine tooth 3/8" carbide to blend the bowl into this cut.
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Next I will use the 1/2" round stone, and tapered stone, to smooth, and contour.
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Then I will go back, and hit the bowl with my finish 75 stone. After that a little touch up with the tapered stone, and lastly, I will hit the bowl and runners with a cartridge roll.
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Home stretch now. Time to lap the valve and back cut.
5:53 CST

67 Cutlass Freak

Here it is guys, the valve to seat contact area worked out perfect.
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Remember this was a basic port job. Nothing too special, but it just took me a little over 5 hours for one bowl and intake runner.
6:20 CST
I hope you all enjoyed this. Please chime in with your comment, or photos of your work. I wish I knew how to do this faster. Now it's time to crack one open, I deserve it-
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67 Cutlass Freak

Jim,
This is absolutely what I was talking about. There is nothing that can be done, by hand in 3-4 hours, that will give you any performance gains what so ever. It just took me a little over 5 hours, to do one port from begining to end. The only way it could be done in that short of a time frame, for all 16 ports, is with a CNC, but don't worry about it Jim, we're working on that...SHHHHHHHHHH

You're not the first one that has said they can do it a lot faster than me. That's OK, I'm not sure what they're doing in that little bit of time, but I don't think it's too much more than scratching the surface.
I didn't do this to start a **** storm, Jim. I do apreciate your input... THANKYOU! I just see it as coming from someone that has never ported a set of heads, and has been told by a machine shop they can fully port a set of heads in that time frame. This was a mild job, with no raised roof. Now add 15 more ports into this time equation.
I must be really slow or just suck at this.
Dave - The Freak

67 Cutlass Freak

Thanks Milan. That means a lot to me coming from you. In my book you are one of the premere engine builders in the Olds world. Your heads are on deck next. I hope we can have them flow tested when I'm all done. I have an axe to grind. It would be cool to out flow Joe Mondello's all out competition heads. Stay tuned...
Dave - The Freak

67 Cutlass Freak

Just got another port done. Everything but the lapping and back cut. Didn't take me as long, but I didn't stop for photos or documenting.
11:08 PM CST
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Time for shower and bed... Gnite all - The Freak

captjim

I still think you are misunderstanding me. And, I disagree with your above statement. At the shop I worked at, the head guy routinely did some light bowl work on iron heads for mild street builds in 3-4 hours per head. That equates to 1 hour per cylinder, 30 minutes per chamber. If you don't think a professional poerter can make improvements (teardropping the guide, a little blending) in that time, IMO you are mistaken. Those did provide gains, especially at low lift, which is what is important on a daily driven street car. Personally, I think it is a cost-effective upgrade. I launch and retrieve my boat 250 times a year, I do it very fast and efficiently, way more so than the weekend casual boater. Don't assume that because you can't do it that a guy who has been doing it his entire adult like cannot. I NEVER said anyone could do a "full port job" in that time frame, that is ridiculous. Nor did any shop tell me that. I am basing my opinions on what I saw done at the shop and improvements made on vehicles I have driven and raced.

Also, I agree with the others, your work looks VERY nice!!

TripDeuces

I can attest to the long time frame in porting heads. I had a set of 'E' heads that Joe Mondello had pocket ported and gasket matched. I took them further and did exactly what Cutlass Freak has done here, removing the rough walls and parting line and smoothing the length of the port.
I only had a rotary tool on a whip but it took forever. I never did document the time taken but it was long and tiring.
I recently did my aluminum heads and I'd rather do them any day. It's so much faster and easier working with aluminum than cast iron.

67 Cutlass Freak

Thanks for the positive reenforcement from everyone.
Jim I have a quote from Cody over on ROP that backs up your statement-

Posted by RIF RAF » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:03 am
Things that can help speed you up:
Carbide selection…I use 4 to port the entire head. 7/16" Egg, 1/2" flame, and 3/8" ball and for getting after it a 1/2" Egg on a 3/8 shank. Also speed of use…crank it up and let the sh*t fly.
Grinders…it took me a while to step up to some "real" industrial grinders. I'll say it was worth every penny! I'm currently using a .7HP Dynabrade. Between this and 3/8" shank carbides took hours off some of my porting work. (466 IH for example) Get rid of those angle grinders…yes they can make a very nice surface finish and level pretty good but have terrible control.
Skip the stones…with good control and light pressure you can get a port cartridge roll ready without the stones
60 grit cartridge rolls are all you need…leave this finish on the intake
flapper paper and cross buff exhaust ports to finish
Forget the stone valve job. Far too time consuming and only as constant as the operator. Multi angle cutters are the way to go.
And of course technique...after doing so many you will get faster when you know how much to take and where to take it from. This will be the largest decrease in time that it takes.

Once getting all this down and being comfortable with the head, your grinders, the speed, and which carbides you like, the time it takes will come down drastically. My best time street/strip porting (grinder time only) of a set of BBO heads is right at 7hrs for the pair.

I hope this helps you out. It used to take me 3 days (about 24hrs) of grinding to do a set of heads…and they didn't flow any more or look any prettier. For example the EGR bump in the exhaust. With the tools you're using it takes roughly 10-15min a port. With a high HP grinder, 3/8 shank and the appropriate carbide I can take out the EGR bump in all 4 exh ports in 15min.
Head Machinist @ Joe Mondello Racing Engines
CJSmith@Mondello.com


You may be right, 3-4 hours per head, in the right areas to grind, (THE BOWL), would be enough to make a difference. My problem is that I am a perfectionist, and really go too far some times, for very little extra HP gains. After we get a flow bench, I'm sure things will become very clear to me as what works, and what does next to nothing.
In any case... IRONS ARE NOT DEAD ... they are just sleeping.
Have a great day everyone, Dave - The Freak

captjim

I have said this a bunch of times, and I usually get killed by guys who say that you can to as good a valve job with stones. Too many variables, IMO.

alacran

Dave,
pictures are impressive. keep them coming. i cant tell if the crossover is filled.

Fitting a 2.07" valve into a 1.95" hole. I would have given up right there...
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Nic

67 Cutlass Freak

Nic, I've been concentrating on the intake ports. I have two left to go, then I will fill the heat risers, and finish the exhaust ports. I like doing the fill, it's kind of cool smelting. Makes me feel powerful melting down metal. Things are progressing well. Should be on target for our time schedule. I will measure installed spring height real soon. Glad you like the work.
Dave - The Freak

455man

This is probably my favorite thread. Keep going. It motivates me also.

74sprint

Dave, I have to agree with Jim and RIF_RAF on this one and I don’t usually agree with Jim. But, when I was porting heads I could do the bowl work and grind both ports down to the parting line on a set of SBC or SBMopar heads in 4 hours. No valve job, no combustion chamber work, no polishing, or anything else, those were all extras. The time it takes also depends on what make and type of head but, and you know this yourself that the biggest bang for your buck is bowl work, valve job, and flash removal. For a full race job on iron heads which, included max porting & polishing, valve work for larger valves & flow, flow bench matching ports, fluorescent flow marking, and port matching an intake would take a full week and cost someone big bucks. The way you are doing heads is the same way I did it 40 years ago which says a lot for your skills because of the numbers you are getting, kudos to you. I really agree with RIF_RAF in that you need to update your tools if you want to get faster. I used to have a heavy duty air grinder meant for porting and very good but expensive carbide cutters that I used with cutting oil, makes the cutter bite instead of chatter, skip and bounce. I had only a few stones, mostly for chambers and I had lots of different sanding rolls & flappers. Remember “First you get good, then you get fast”, keep up the good work. Oh I love the cut-away head pics, finally someone took Olds pics, thanks Dave.

Ray

captjim

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while! LOL

Seriously though, so you are saying 40 hours will get you a max flow, high HP job on an iron head, correct? Call that $2500 +/- with parts. IMO, that is fairly reasonable. Bolt those on a quality bottom end ($4,000) and you have a reliable high output engine with quality parts and machining for $6500, give or take. That seems like a fair price to me. And, the aluminum heads would be similar in price, since they will need a little work out of the box. So, it just comes down to what you want.

67 Cutlass Freak

Well I'm just about done with these #5 heads. Thought I would show some photos of the exhaust bowl, and port work. I filled the heat riser with Zinc alloy. We recently flow tested a set of "C" casting heads with minimul port work, and the heat risers filled. We didn't see any real gains compared to no port work at all. I learned a lot about porting from Joe Mondello, I talked with him often, picking his brain, and I read all his tech articles. He told me on a fairly mild street/ strip BB, filling the heat riser and welding up the divider was worth 8-10 HP. I have no way to prove this, but it makes sense to keep the intake cooler. I've melted down pistons, and intake manifolds for the fill, but the Zinc seems to melt at a lower temp, has fewer impurities to skim off, and pours smoother. IMHO welding the divider is pointless if you are planning on running the stock exhaust manifolds.
I have some "C" castings on deck next with some big valves. Hope to really make some good numbers with those. Here's some photos -
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alacran

these pictures are great. Seems as though the exhaust has more material to work with or remove.

I would have done the welded divider but my limited experience and knowing that the 442 never had the divider in the heads and it did have the divider on the manifold...it just made more sense to let it be than welding on the head.

I open to hear further discussion on here no thread jacking.

Dave is it too late to weld in the divider?

Nic

67 Cutlass Freak

olds 307 and 403

Thanks Dave this has been imformative. I have a pair of #6 heads with the same size valves 2"/1.625" plus have bowl and roof work already done by a good shop. These heads pushed a heavy Delta to 12.70's with a 355. He sold them to help fund his 455 build. I plan on getting the intake valve enlarged to 2.07 just like you have done as well as any guide work and a valve job before it goes on the 403 stroker. I imagine any shop could also use a bowl hog in the process to cut hand grinding time? I figure just doing the intake valve enlargement with the necessary bowl blending would put my heads very close to Edelbrock's for flow. My crossovers were filled but not the divider. I used high temp JB weld for that, wonder if it blew out? You are a patient man to spend all this time grinding.

ent72olds

This is a very informative thread! Love the step by step and how to's? ! Very good read....thank you for taking the time to document and share with us. 🚀

Marx3

I started porting my B heads. I have been studying the priceless home porting thread and also the recent porting thread on ROP.
Since this is my first porting experience ever, I am concentrating on getting the ports and bowls smooth and not so much on re-shaping and customizing the shape of these.
I have a couple questions though, since I dont want to hit water and such :-)

I am not sure if I can take this bump out... the heads is upside down, so it is on the roof and I am pretty sure it is an exhaust port. I guess this is an EGR bump? Can I smoothen it out completely, or will I hit water if I shoot for flattening it out ?
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I have only used the carbide grinder so far. I have some 80 grit rolls that I will finish the bowls / ports up with. How far can I go with teardropping the guide? I know the wall right above the guide has water on the other side ? The surface in the bowl has been smoothed out, so any bumbs and unevenness is gone.
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I will do all ports on both heads the same way for starters, so they are the all the same and then I might go into re-shaping the ports. 67 cutlass freak told me to square the port right before the shortside radius.
Btw I measured the port volumes to be 178 intake and 130 exhaust.
The heads will get Milodon 2.07 intake and 1.71 exhaust valves and a 3-angle valve job. These valve sizes should fit in there, right ?

67 Cutlass Freak

Nice work so far Jacob. Thanks for sharing. Those bumps in the intake runner correspond with the rocker arm stud bosses. You should flatten them out. you will actually be doing a four angle valve job on the intake at least. when I said rough in the valve job, I was talking about bringing the 45 degree cut out to say 2.04" on the intake for your 2.07" valves. Then do your sixty degree cut and then do the 75 degree cut to pull the bowl back. Take a look at my stone and dress one similar to that. Have you measured the valve to guide clearance yet. If these heads need guides, you should have those installed before you go too much further.
I hope the SB head deal goes through for you. If not, let me know. I will help you get a good set.
Keep us posted on your progress, Dave - The Freak

Marx3

Bump away! I need to smooth this port out some more though.

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This is the intake port. I consider it almost done. finished with 80 grit paper roll.
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I cant wait to get started on the valves!

Marx3

Intake and exhaust are done.
I think I have about 5 hours in these two ports together.
Intake went from 178 cc to 185 cc
Exhaust went from 130 cc to 141 cc.
How does that sound? Like I said, I haven't been removing all that much, just been smoothening thinigs out and removing bumbs.
I need to get started on the valves and pull back the bowl accordingly. This is fun! I wish could live off of this :-)
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Marx3

Did the next intake port.
This port is pretty rough compared to the first one, that was finished with an 80 grit paper roll.
Is the rough finish or the smooth 80-grit finish ( or even 150 grit ) better?
The heads are going on a street 455, 9.5:1, 226/234@.050 Crane cam with dual exhaust, possibly headers. It is going in a 78 Trans Am with th350 and 3.23 rear.
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TripDeuces

Better check that valve seat.

Marx3

I am installing 2.07/1.71 valves so I am grinding new seat anyways.

What do you think about the finish?
btw the red circles in this picture, do they mark areas were you need to take care not to hit water, or do they mark the ares of the bowl that needs the most material removed?
Seffbowlshot.jpg

67 Cutlass Freak

Jacob thanks for sharing your work. I'm glad your having a good time. It's really not hard work. Just time consuming.

Marx3 wrote:
"Did the next intake port.
This port is pretty rough compared to the first one, that was finished with an 80 grit paper roll.
Is the rough finish or the smooth 80-grit finish ( or even 150 grit ) better?"

The intake ports don't need to be smooth for good air flow or performance, but it does help to reduce build up of fuel/ dirty air deposits. It helps more on the exhaust side to reduce carbon build up. John Stolpa, from Rocket Racing, told me you will not see a difference from a smooth port, to a rough port, on the flow bench, but a rough port will give better performance on the dyno. The only reason I make them smooth, is because it's easier to see the straight path.

Marx3 wrote:
"What do you think about the finish?
btw the red circles in this picture, do they mark areas were you need to take care not to hit water, or do they mark the ares of the bowl that needs the most material removed?"

Your finish looks pretty good. You really don't have to go past 80 grit. I like to use stones to help smooth, and use up less cartridge rolls.
The red circles indicate areas that needed just a little more removal.
I did a little work on your photos with some areas for you to give a little more effort. Be careful - don't go too far. Look at my photos to help gage how far you can go.

It's hard to tell from this photo but I think you can take just a little more off here so you can see the whole wall on a straight shot. Try not to go into the head bolt hole, but if you do, it can be sleeved.
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The top circle shows the tear drop of the guide... you should try to flatten it a little more on the roof where it transitions into the guide. The lower two highlighted areas you could taper around the guide slightly to allow more air/ fuel to flow into the bowl -
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You ground really tight to the guide. I try to leave a little more material here. No big deal though. Absolutely do not do that on an aluminum head. I think you can pull a little more material from the side and the back of the bowl. It's really hard to gage from photos. It's hard to get good images.
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Again, I think you could take just a little more off the side and flatten the transition on the roof into the guide. I have seen some porters do a wedge on the guide like a knife to slice the air going around the guide.

This area should be a straight line of sight down the wall. Try not to cut into the push rod hole.
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Hope this helps. You really need to check the valve to guide clearance. If these heads need guides, put them in right away, then rough in your valve job.

Keep those metal shavings flyin', Dave - The Freak

67 Cutlass Freak

Time for an update.

These are Milan's"C" casting heads with Edelbrock valves. The intakes were cut down to 2.097" and the exhaust are 1.68". These heads look pretty good. They have had new iron guides installed, and the valve to guide clearance isperfect. The three angle valve job looks real good too. I wish I could do all my work without nicking the seats, but it's just not possible. I will have to re-do the valve job when I'm done porting. They have had some smoothing done in the runners, and bowl area, but no real material was removed. I am doing a full street-strip port job to these heads. Lots of bowl work, widening the runners,working the short side radius, tear dropping the valve guides, filling the heat risers, welding the dividers, pollishing the combustion chamber, raising the intake port .150", raising the exhaust port .100", and milling to76CC.

Milan said he tried to do a little work, and it shows. He did a good job of getting rid of the bumps in the exhaust ports, but he really didn't do too much, which is good for me. He will be the first to tell you "he's no headporter". Milan is really a top notch builder, and he has decided to help me and Don, to showcase our work. These heads will be flow tested, I will match port an intake, then we're headed to the dyno.

I can't thank him enough for what he's doing.



Here's some photos before I started any work -

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67 Cutlass Freak

My work begins-

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More to come...

Day in the life of The Freak

rtanner

man this a great thread, thank you

67 Cutlass Freak

Porting is done on Milan's heads. Raised the intake roof .150", raised the exhaust roof .100" widened as far as I could without punching through, pulled all the bowls back, welded the exhaust dividers, pollished the combustion chambers, straightened the short side radius, squared the edges, tear dropped the guides, removed all the bumps, opened up the push rod holes on top for the 1.7 rockers usage, redid the valve job, lapped all the valves, de-slagged the exterior, deburred around oil return holes, and now I need to CC the chamber so I can calculate how much to mill off. These heads turned out real nice. I'm hoping to be slightly better than 270 CFM @ .600 lift on the intake, and slightly better than 200 CFM @ .600" lift on the exhaust. If we can hit those numbers I will predict 540 HP on the dyno. If anyone can make it happen it's Milan. We are really under the gun now to buckle up this motor for the dyno. Twenty four days away...
Does any one want to see photos???

Marx3

Are you kidding ?? :-)

67 Cutlass Freak

I bet the suspense was killin' ya.
Sorry my digital camera & these pictures kind of suck. I am spent. Maybe I will get out the 35mm when I get them back from being milled. If I have time.
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That last picture shows top secret over sized gaskets that need to have the bolt hole modified.
Gnite all, Dave - The Freak

67 Cutlass Freak

We made it to the dyno today with Milan's engine. You can read about the details here -
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic8346.html

wr1970

Really cool stuff you have posted.The dyno pull was close to what you were shooting for was it not Dave?

Marx3

Wow, those are awesome numbers! How much lift did you say that cam has?

67 Cutlass Freak

Yes it was. Pipemax program predicted 511-534 HP, so we did pretty good. The torque curve is what really impressed me.
Over on ROP Marty, (gowest), made this comment-
"I had looked at the graph. Very nice looking curve. I was just wondering how close to one another the motors actually were for comparison reasons. Both motors are pretty impressive and the graph overlay helps to see how the porting affected the output. Pretty amazing that a better ring pack, cam, intake, headers and port work can add 150+ HP over a W30. It's all in the details as they say!".
This really made me think, it's too bad, back in the day these engines were produced, the engineers didn't go just a little further, to build a power plant like Milan's.

Marx3 wrote: Wow, those are awesome numbers! How much lift did you say that cam has?

Here's the cam specs buddy:
Cam is a Bullet 242 - 256 -112 in @ 109 .365 Mopar lobe on the intake , will make .600 lift with a 1.7 rocker. ,372 Ford lobe on the exhaust will make .575 lift with a 1.6 rocker.

Marx3

Sorry for the lack of response. Been hung up on work and family life etc.
Those are impressive numbers. nice cam!

I am in the process of porting a pair of SBC heads right now. I am doing everything you taught me , Dave :-)
I am about to do the valves. What seat contact area should I shoot for in a daily driver sort of application?