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Where is the break between high performace and mild? Street engines then race engines. Let see where this goes.Please be nice with your opinion.Respect others opinion.
This is the original question.
Mr. Nick stated that race cars get trailered meaning they are not streetable and street cars get driven to the track because they have street manners. Which is a fair comparison.
Your statement doesn't make sense because you are saying your are towing your street car because the track is 3.5 hours away and it's hot. It has nothing to do with wild or mild and nothing to do with original question, because if you wanted to drive it you could.
JMO
Last edited by 70cutty; April 29th, 2016 at 06:10 PM.
I do agree with oldsmobile dave towing 3.5 hours to the track. The original statement has nothing in it about mild to wild Mr nicks statement isn't a good comparison. Cars get towed for more than one reason. I gave one and oldsmobile Dave gave his. Driving around with a non air car with the windows in the heat is one thing. Do that racing with windows up helmet on and a jacket 100 degree temp you might change your thought process on towing and wanting to cool off.
Last edited by wr1970; April 29th, 2016 at 06:35 PM.
So, just wanted to say I enjoyed reading through this thread even though I don't know much about it. I've never been on a strip in a car. Watched a few but have never done it.
There many guys with opinions and that is what they are. I am good with all of it and hope to see many more guys chime in. I think this is a good subject to discuss.
Neeley, wouldn't hot weather be more about driver physical limitations and not engine performance? Just asking, not trying to start no argument. I only raced 4 times at the track so my knowledge is limited.
As far as the trailer thing I agree with Neeley that there are more reasons than a car not being streetable to trailer it. I for instance am very strongly considering trailering my 66, which is very streetable. Only reason is I'm on stock axles and they may or may not break. As for the original question I think mild is simple bolt ons ie; intake, headers, carb, etc. Stuff you don't have to change converter gears or anything else to stay compatible. High performance to me includes machine work, for Pistons or otherwise, and will be an engine you take your time measuring clearances, true comp, etc. doing more than just slapping some performance parts on an already running engine.
I drive my car to the track 1 hr dr. Then swap tires and race then drive back . It's loud , it's hot , it's got hard racing bucket seats, it's still all steel. Many would consider it a race car. To me it's harder to build a car that cab do both vs just one. It's a fine balance I guess. I don't mind cruising down the highway at 3k+ rpm. Now if I had my say I would trailer it but simply because when you are racing anything can happen and being able to tow it home is nice. I sold my trailer and truck so it's not an option anymore. But it's a nail biter. I drove my car one morning when it wad 29 degrees out. I had no heat and drove with my windows down. I drive my car everywhere. But it's no drive in your comfort machine with a/c and comfy seats. It needs 93 octane , I'm lucky to see 9 mpg . MY point us you can split hairs but in lamest terms if you drive it on the street it's a street car. Plates , insurance and driving around town. Idle quality is all personal prefrence. Towing is a choice although it's a double edged sword it's understandable. Now here is a flip side thoight. What would you make of a serious 14 sec bracket car ? That's kinda slow but it's racing . I have actually seen guys tow a car to the track that's slower than the tow vehicle.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 29th, 2016 at 10:23 PM.
Young olds My point is you could still drive your car if you wanted.
I think what the rest of us are getting at is nick said race cars are trailered and others aren't. When very streetable cars get trailered all the time. Using a trailer isn't a good reference to whether a car is high performance or not. Lots of other reasons to trailer a car no matter if it's necessary or not.
Neeley, wouldn't hot weather be more about driver physical limitations and not engine performance? Just asking, not trying to start no argument. I only raced 4 times at the track so my knowledge is limited.
70 cutty we are good no problem. For me the answer is health related. You can get heat stroke if you get to hot. I got so hot once i took the hose out of the burn out box guys hand and stuck my head under the hose. The track manager seen how red faced i was and ask me to come to the tower where there was air conditioning. The temp that day 103 in the shade.I have drove my street/strip car over a hundred miles one way. So very streetable 12.5 car. It now has a different engine that has only been 25 miles one way. This engine should a second faster at the track. I agree young olds you can break a axle.It hasn't happened with me but has to other racers. Carry on guys.
I ran an 11.3 in the 1/8 first run. Got beat by some embrassing little green **** box. I knocked a second off that day but still bad. I knew 2.56 gears were not good enough, went 3.42 gears. I figured out regular BFG T/A's were horrible at our track , bought slicks. I soon realized every flaw shows up at the track, I had them all outside of massive mechanical failure. Simple fact is you can say how powerful your car is but without track testing, it means nothing number wise. I got it down to 9.44 in the 1/8. I know I need more gear, a custom cam, my heads should flow what 80 Rockets heads above flow. I got a new shifter for more rpm and my G body is going bye bye, no more 7.5" rear exploding worries. I am getting 3.90 gears and posi for 8.5" Type O in the 70, custom cam from Cutlassefi, going to polish the chambers a bit to help detonation and maybe get away with mid grade. I am leaving the 2300 flash stall, hoping it will stall closer to 2500 with more power. Great part with my better than stock 2004R with the taller tires I have will put it just under 2000 rpm at 60 mph. The converter is very tight and under light throttle, the trans acts almost like stock, pin it and firm shifts are delivered. These old cars are a compromise but quality and properly picked parts can add power, reliability and still be streetable.
Neely i remember driving to the track on a 90 degree day. It was probably 110 inside my car. No insulation , sound deadner etc etc. I did have a cooler full of ice cold water. I must have gone through about 2 gallons of water on the drive home. With the car being crammed with tools and what not it sometimes it is a job in it self to get to the track. Then in the fall i remember the opposite situation driving to the track . It was 30 degrees and i have no heat and i had the windows down.
Its more work than towing actually. swapping tires and taking exhaust off and on etc etc. we towed twice last year and compared to driving it was much less taxing. Not to mention you get stuck pitting in the grass vs. asphalt.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 30th, 2016 at 05:20 PM.
I hear you loud and clear coppercutlass. Been there done that. If i get employed soon i plan on driving to 1970 442 to the track to race. I need to tune it in. The 67 is set for kill and should run dead on. Going to try and get my son to run the 67 next time out with it. Maybe my Daughter. At the moment no cash.
I've never built a 100% stock engine in my life, but if you could load wife and kids in it and take say a 500 mile trip without everyone being in agany you probably have a high performance street car, if you take a high performance race car on the same trip and everyone is miserable you probably have a race car, the way we judge race cars and what we'll drive on the sreet is probably different then what the rest of the family will put up with, I know i can put up with the noise the wild camshafts no a/c and high stall converters, so if you take a trip and the only complaint you hear is " I gotta pee " you probably have a high performance street car, if you get complaints like " its too loud or whats that smell, its too hot, and i have to pee " you probably have a race car.
Yeah Copper's car is very borderline in my books but he enjoys it. My 70 is very streetable but like a lot of cars back then has almost no options. Even with 2.78 gears and tall 14" tires equal close to 2500 rpm at 60 mph. Leaky vents and window sweeps make it less comfortable but still gets 21 mpg imperial. A built up 2004r and either FItech or the Holley Sniper are two solutions to make our old junk more modern but there is a 3 grand price tag. Step up to better EFI, you are looking at a 4 grand total. I justify buying parts for my car since I don't have a car payment, other than the Challenger which my wife mostly drives.
Yeah Copper's car is very borderline in my books but he enjoys it. My 70 is very streetable but like a lot of cars back then has almost no options. Even with 2.78 gears and tall 14" tires equal close to 2500 rpm at 60 mph. Leaky vents and window sweeps make it less comfortable but still gets 21 mpg imperial. A built up 2004r and either FItech or the Holley Sniper are two solutions to make our old junk more modern but there is a 3 grand price tag. Step up to better EFI, you are looking at a 4 grand total. I justify buying parts for my car since I don't have a car payment, other than the Challenger which my wife mostly drives.
I would be good with fuel injection on a old school car if it meets certain criteria.This i would say is a mild performance.IMO. Why is because i would want a nice car when done. Must end up with very nice paint job. New body bushings,new door seals, nice interior. The engine compartment would need to be detailed above average. No leaks any where and solid trunk compartment. The frame would need to be cleaned and protected with paint. This would have to be a car that is garaged. Not a total rebuild but damn close. JMO
Before i crashed it and went to fiberglass fenders then back to steel fenders . My car looked great after i restored it. all it needed was an interior. I plan on redoing it all over the winter. I beat the living snot out of my stuff like a rental car lol. As i went faster i cared less about looks and focused on going fast. Now that im happy i need to make it look great again. At the time of the pic it was a high 13 sec car. would get 15 mpg drive anywhere and comfortable. i have sacrificed a bit but i still drive it everywhere. More so than ever before.
It was rough when i got it. needing floors , trunk pans , doors needed patch work , needed quarters and needed fender patches. I also had it off the fram 2 years ago to address a few issues. i have had the car 9 years now. It might not look nice but my car is actually pretty damn solid. just been neglecting the paint and i didnt feel like spending the money on it lol.
Last edited by coppercutlass; May 2nd, 2016 at 10:58 AM.
Ah, a familiar topic. IMO, it is so subjective that it really is impossible to answer. It is hard to use "stock" as a starting point since some stock vehicles were high performance. I had a friend who bought an LS 6 Chevelle, bolted on slicks, headers, a huge carb, and 4.88 gears and ran a high 11, yet it was basically "stock". Hard to use ET as well. A highly modified 350 in a 4000 lb car might run a low 13 where a stock 455 in a stripped Omega can easily go mid 12s. Don's HP/CI theory is as good as any, I suppose.
All that really matters is that the car is fun to drive and the owner of it is happy. Putting a specific term to it is not important, IMHO.
Ah, a familiar topic. IMO, it is so subjective that it really is impossible to answer. It is hard to use "stock" as a starting point since some stock vehicles were high performance. I had a friend who bought an LS 6 Chevelle, bolted on slicks, headers, a huge carb, and 4.88 gears and ran a high 11, yet it was basically "stock". Hard to use ET as well. A highly modified 350 in a 4000 lb car might run a low 13 where a stock 455 in a stripped Omega can easily go mid 12s. Don's HP/CI theory is as good as any, I suppose.
All that really matters is that the car is fun to drive and the owner of it is happy. Putting a specific term to it is not important, IMHO.
You might be right.I still like the thought of some sort of divide line. Everyone has a opinion and that is why the thread was started.
I still like the thought of some sort of divide line.
That would be pretty difficult given the variables. And that does not even address power adders. Fun to discuss, but we all have different definitions. Younger guys won't care about some of the "comforts" that us old farts like.
A/C, P/S, P/B, insulated floors, quiet-ish exhaust, insulated flooring, tunes, decent ride, no ridiculous gearing, just to name a few. Oh, and you can shut it off warm, and it will actually start back up in 5 minutes!
Last edited by captjim; May 2nd, 2016 at 05:12 PM.
Most of us are. And, if you lived in the South, you would not consider a/c an option.
I don't know how you guys down there hack +40 C for months at a time. Of course we can get that warm but we can have months of -40 C. My car will eventually get totally redone, interior first. I am adding cruise control and eventually after market A/C but drive train, including an OD trans, good launching gears and tire smoking torque are very important.
+40 C is the trade off to not have to endure the -40 C. I hate the cold, however I can tolerate the heat. Besides we southerners can pretty much drive all year round.
Ah, a familiar topic. IMO, it is so subjective that it really is impossible to answer. It is hard to use "stock" as a starting point since some stock vehicles were high performance. I had a friend who bought an LS 6 Chevelle, bolted on slicks, headers, a huge carb, and 4.88 gears and ran a high 11, yet it was basically "stock". Hard to use ET as well. A highly modified 350 in a 4000 lb car might run a low 13 where a stock 455 in a stripped Omega can easily go mid 12s. Don's HP/CI theory is as good as any, I suppose.
All that really matters is that the car is fun to drive and the owner of it is happy. Putting a specific term to it is not important, IMHO.
I thought this over Jim and i think stock almost chevy's Ls6 chevell's with big carb headers 488 gears are faster basic stock than Oldsmobiles. So i guess Oldsmobile guys should try this on a basic stock 455 and see how close they can get to a high 11 as a comparison.
If your local IHRA or NHRA track asks you not to come back until you get a cage because you ran faster than a certain ET then i would say you have jumped into the high performance arena. Some current factory cars may be in that realm off the showroom floor.
street car vs race car is a different animal in my opinion. I can only speak for my state, PA, but i believe if you cant legit pass a state inspection you are not a street car. there are a lot of cars that skirt rules and drive a around with chutes on the back for example.. im sorry but driving on the street doesnt necessarily make you a streetcar. Street Outlaws for example is a bit of a joke in my opinion to call them street racers. they are track cars that race on the street. to me, a better "street outlaws" would be F.A.S.T. or the pure stock muscle car drags cars. thats just my take on it.
88 cutty classic The street out laws are drag cars. As for street racing they are not street racing. They are on a road not used by cars or watched by police. Could it be a access road on private property? The track they lay out is not 1/4 mile it is 1/8 mile. That show is fake imo. Do they have fast cars i would say they do.Track race cars that is.
88 cutty classic The street out laws are drag cars. As for street racing they are not street racing. They are on a road not used by cars or watched by police. Could it be a access road on private property? The track they lay out is not 1/4 mile it is 1/8 mile. That show is fake imo. Do they have fast cars i would say they do.Track race cars that is.
oh i know its a controlled environment and done up for TV, i was speaking on them racing an actual street surface, not so much on the "street"
FWIW i think 1/8th is better on the street anyway. its just a more realistic scenario.
April 29th, 2016, 06:00 PM
Mr nicks statement isn't a good comparison. Cars get towed for more than one reason. I gave one and oldsmobile Dave gave his. Driving around with a non air car with the windows in the heat is one thing. Do that racing with windows up helmet on and a jacket 100 degree temp you might change your thought process on towing and wanting to cool off.
For me the answer is health related. You can get heat stroke if you get to hot. I got so hot once i took the hose out of the burn out box guys hand and stuck my head under the hose. The track manager seen how red faced i was and ask me to come to the tower where there was air conditioning. The temp that day 103 in the shade.I have drove my street/strip car over a hundred miles one way. So very streetable 12.5 car. It now has a different engine that has only been 25 miles one way. This engine should a second faster at the track. I agree young olds you can break a axle.It hasn't happened with me but has to other racers. Carry on guys.
. My 70 is very streetable but like a lot of cars back then has almost no options. Even with 2.78 gears and tall 14" tires equal close to 2500 rpm at 60 mph. Leaky vents and window sweeps make it less comfortable but still gets 21 mpg imperial. A built up 2004r and either FItech or the Holley Sniper are two solutions to make our old junk more modern but there is a 3 grand price tag. Step up to better EFI, you are looking at a 4 grand total. I justify buying parts for my car since I don't have a car payment, other than the Challenger which my wife mostly drives.
