cutlassefi

I'm sure your dyno sheet says what it says but you don't have enough camshaft (not enough off the seat time) and carb to make 500hp, even with the edelbrocks.
That Crosswind is just like the RPM in that it has a small plenum. That's why you need more carb with it to make it work.

J-(Chicago)

I'm not a big fan of the crosswinds no matter the carb. Steveo and I did a back to back swap at the byron dragway when they first hit the market on his green cutlass running in the 11s with a regular performer.
It lost .2 . all 3 passes were a consistent disappointment, and off it came.

Where are you from, ds? 108 is pretty good for trap speed. you should be running 12.4 or 12.5 with that number.

ds00469

I am sure there is fluctuation on all dyno machines but all I can tell you is what the computer gave me for a read out

I do more street driving with my car then track days so the .2 doesn't bother me all that much. Now if it was build for drag racing then I would be ripping that intake off.

I am located in the north west corner of IL about just under 2 hours north of Cordova

I cant get her to hook before the 60' I am sure it has to do with the street tiers and the suspension I have on the car. Maybe someday I'll upgrade it to better suspension. It just had UMI upper and lower arms HD springs and Edelbrock progressive shocks.

507OLDS

Just work on the suspension,and hook it up. No need for slicks. I haven't owned a pair in 15 years. I run the 72 on drag radials. It launches great.

h/o guy

As a new member to this site I was reading through this head comparison thread and felt I needed to point out a couple of things I have personally experienced regarding the various Mondello products and the Edelbrock heads available through Mondello Performance Products in Paso Robles.


I am in the middle of an engine build for a local client and member of the So Cal Olds Club who unfortunately purchased a set of Edelbrock heads through Mondello Performance Products. Basically they took a good head casting and turned it into junk and then sold them to this unsuspecting customer. With a little over 120 miles on this motor which had failing oil pressure ( built by Mondello Performance Products), I found an improper valve job with NONE of the valves properly sealing, incorrect springs for the application, guides too tight, the beginning of improper valve stem wear due to incorrect pushrod length, and incorrect rocker studs for poly locks.


This was a complete build of an early 400 by these folks who lied to the customer telling him he had a roller cam ( flat tapper hydraulic), true roller rockers, ( roller tip Comps ), 9.5 compression ( flat top Arias pistons @ 11 to 1), and gave him an exchange block that already had 8 sleeves in it!


I wanted to point this out as there always seems to be some confusion with the three Mondello entities out there of which only one, Bernard Mondello Racing Enterprises, is run by a Mondello with the expertise and expierence that the name has been synonymous with over the years.


Do not be fooled or worse yet, taken by the folks who currently operate Mondello Performance Products as these folks will sell you junk and rob you of your hard earned cash.


This is not a bash but more of a warning for those who don't already know the difference. If you want sound advice and work for Olds heads, whether they be Edelbrocks, Pro-Comps or some of the other options out there, talk directly to Bernard Mondello, he doesn't BS and he will do the job right.


This is my first hand experience with this issue.


Grant

Bernhard

Would you mind sharing more info on your 69 HO car in your sig

drjr56

h/o guy..was this 400 motor built by MPP or was it the heads only.Reason I ask is I had a motor built by these guys two summers ago,and have had no problems as of 2000 miles.500 were breakin,and the last 1500 were hitting it pretty good.Took her to almost 6500rpms a couple times by accident with no complaints.Oil pressure is still 75 cold and never drops below 40 hot.Ya got me thinking I might want to take it easy on her. Or did I get lucky with these guys.

captjim

Exactly. Get some Mickey-Stickies. He ran a high 12 with a 2.46 60', there is over half a second right there.

67 Cutlass Freak

Well guys there's one other Oldsmobile head out there that has'nt been mentioned here. Marty Zimmerman has built a set of Billet aluminum heads. There's hundreds of hours in their development. Marty has also been involved with the development of Brad Wise's heads. This thread that I'm posting a link to is twenty pages long, and two years old. If you have some time to kill, and dare to dream of winning the lottery, Check it out. If you want to skip all the BS and just see some photos, go to page four-


http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...php?f=1&t=3725

380 Racer

From what I understand, Zimmerman's heads are one-off. I have heard who bought the one set in exsistence (sp?). What happens if something major like a disaster occurs? They are very spendy to begin with.
As far as Wise goes......way too many broken promises. I would never buy anything from him, my money comes too hard for me to waste it thru him.

507OLDS

Marty did sell the heads. They are the baddest pair of Olds heads out there. Marty has a deep background and great knowledge. He had a lot to do with the R&D of the Wise heads,but nothing to do with the production,or lack of. Could the billet heads be produced? Yes,but the cost is more than what the majority would pay.
I can't believe there are still people buying from the original Mondello's in Paso Robles.The Olds Rocket Parts seller on eBay is one in the same. Another one of Lynn's functions.

drjr56

I found out about Lynn after I found CO and ROP. It was too late for me,I had already spent the money.At least I know now in case I have to redo this motor,where not to go.I do have a warranty.At this point I gotta hope for the best.YIKES!!

67 Cutlass Freak

Please be very careful what you say here or on other forums. I'm sure we've all had bad experiences with one vendor or another, but I recommend you keep the negative or "slanderous" remarks to yourself. Lawsuits have been stemmed from internet forums like this one. If you do have something you need to get off your chest, stick to the facts, and protect yourself.

h/o guy

The entire motor was built by MPP under the ownership of Lynn Welfringer.

h/o guy

The car in my sig is a 69 442 ( yes I transformed a real 442 into a race car...lol )with a 455 that has Edelbrock heads, 13.9 to 1 compression, steel crank, full block girdle by Noel Engineering, Victor intake, 950 hp Holley, 2" Hooker super comps, solid flat tappet Lunati cam, roller rockers, and all the other standard oiling upgrades etc. Trans is a turbo 400 with a trans brake and 4400 stall convertor, chevy 12 bolt with 4.33 gears, stock style rear suspension with all upgraded components, anti roll bar system, 10.5 x 29.5 rear tire, car weighs 3360 with me in it. Best pass to date was last March at the March meet in Bakersfield at 10.43 / 126mph with a 1.42 60' time. We run in the American Nostalgia Racing Association, Summit Series, NHRA Heritage Series, PSCA, and other regional events.

drjr56

Thankyou to anyone that passes on accurate and truthful info.concerning bad results using any vender or builder.I for one would not want to spend my hard earned money using an incompetent or distrustful business.If this motor blows up I think it's only fair to let people know why.I'VE had good results so far....I also pass that along.67 cutlass freak you are right though.And thanks for all your hard work and info that you make available.Your threads are awesome.

oldsmoboogie

I pondered the stock vrs edelbrock when i did my 461. I ended up using iron heads ported and machined from jms. I did the math and the iron heads saved me over 500 dollars. At the time of my build the ebrocks were almost 1800 before shipping and taxes plus i needed rockers, guides, and bolts. My iron heads were 1250 ported, exhaust crossover filled, exhaust divider welded up, and valve job. After buying the comp roller tip rockers and guides i had 1500 in these heads. I do not have a flow chart with the iron heads but i do have probably 30 passes on them. My car has run a best of 12.02 at 108 mph with a 1.7 60 ft and a .008 rt. I have a comp 23x duration with .54x lift i dont recall the exact specs with a torker intake, full msd ign. 13/4 hedders, 2.5 flowmaster ex. 850 hp holley, 2004r trans with a 3000 converter and 3.73 gears. I chose the iron heads not only for budget but because i think its cool to see what factory parts can do with some work. If i was looking for all out power i would have choose ebrocks and paid to have them ported. I was hoping for an 11 sec slip but i havnt got it yet. I need to work on the carb some as it runs very rich. I also think my compression may not be optimal. I also run at cordova and would be cool to run with some other olds guys.

drjr56

12.02 @108 is pretty dang good.Your build is still on the mild side.I thought 108 would be good for about mid 12's at best. 3000 stall with 3.73 is a big help. 11's your sooo close. 1.6 sixty foot and your there.Factory parts in the right hands work wonders.

67 Cutlass Freak

Thanks for your post. You make a strong case for the use of cast irons. I think there's more performance in your car with some fine tuning.

Smitty275

A simple formula for figuring out ET from MPH is 1320/MPH=ET, and conversely 1320/ET=MPH. If the car has constant accelleration this formula hold very close. Poor 60' times can throw it way off but shows the capability of what is there once you get traction or proper gearing, etc.

Smitty275

Does 10.0s @ 128+ and 3550+ make a decent case for bolstering the use of iron heads? Engine is only 12.2:1.

Wise Performance

507, Please get your facts straight before you post, better yet CALL ME DIRECT so I can inform you the correct information, then post your findings.

Brad @ WPE

captjim

Except that once again you are using the $1800 Edelbrocks as the bar when the Pro Comps are a LOT cheaper, closer to $1,000 which makes the iron heads $300 more.

coppercutlass

Not if you have to mill them and do other things. It comes down to variables. For an sbo it will be more imo when taken into consideration eveything it will take to properly run the aluminums.

f-85

Also the iron heads ported are going to flow more then the stock procomps. Plus when you get the procomps they have junk valves and need a valve job. So really how much do you need to spend to get a decent set of procomps? Maybe around $1500 plus rockers and springs.

coppercutlass

I think that's one of the variables I would take into consideration if one would trust the procomp fitted heads or replace with quality well known components.

captjim

Copper, I agree on the small block, on mild applications it is probably more cost-effective to go iron.

f-85, that isn't what I am reading from guys who have used them recently. Perhaps one of them will chime in with their impressions. Ported iron will outflow stock Pro-Comps, but ported Pro-Comps will outflow ported iron for a very similar cost with the added benefits.

f-85

Ok i was alittle off. Its $1600 for a decent set of procomp heads. And thats not even ported. http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERNARD-MOND...5f3165&vxp=mtr

captjim

Or, you can buy these from the same seller for $1100 which include 7/16 rocker studs and 3/8" guide plates, quality valves and hardware. Put $500 worth of port work and where do you think you end up compared to iron?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERNARD-MOND...ht_1575wt_1362

67 Cutlass Freak

Everybody keeps claiming the ProComps flow as good as ported irons. I don't see it. They flow as good as stock cast iron BB heads, out of the box. Now it is easier to port aluminum, and there is other benefits like weight, and the ability to run higher compression ratios. To me the valves look pretty good in the ProComps, they are dirt cheap. We will see how well they hold up. Bernard Mondello is the best source for these heads. He spent a lot of time with me on the phone to answer all my stupid questions. One other thing I should point out, in a SB application there's only 2 intake manifolds, in production, that have enough material on the top of the runner to match port. The Performer RPM, and the Victor. If you are contemplating running the ProComps on a SB you should ask yourself what mods would be needed to run the BB heads on a SB? Can you say MILLING?

olds 307 and 403

Really the only issues Procomp's are a chamber too big for anyone to use, especially SBO guys and the over hang on the front, meaning electric fuel pumps. The .080"+ cut is the toughest one to swallow with for a SBO.

captjim

I have stated several times that I agree that in a mild application, aftermarket aluminum heads may not be the most cost-effective choice. However, in a bracket car or a high end street build where they affer the same advantages over iron as in a BBO. IMO, on a BBO it is a no-brainer.

I never said they flow better than PORTED irons, which is an impossible statement to make, as every set of heads can potentially be ported differently. The comment was that a good set of ported iron heads will run around 2 grand. Well, if you can buy the Pro-Comps with decent valves, rocker studs, and guide plates for $1100, don't you think you can surpass the performance of the ported irons for less than $900 worth of work? I think so, but really don't know. Again, perhaps those guys that do will add their .02

captjim

All goind points, and I think it speaks to what the aftermasket companies think of the viability of heads for a SBO. Back when I used to go to the track, with a car total pushing 500 on some nights, I was always the ONLY SBO there, somestimes a couple 455s. It is basic economics, supply and demand, the market simply isn't there or someone would have filled it.

To the smart fellas; what is the possibility of using a domed 400 SBC piston to offset the big chamber? Feasible? Ridiculous??

f-85

Thats all the stock procomp valves and hardware. Im sure there is a reason why Bernard sells them blueprinted with better valves and hardware. Like you said
" However, in a bracket car or a high end street build where they affer the same advantages over iron as in a BBO. IMO, on a BBO it is a no-brainer."

If you have a bracket car or high end build i would want better parts in it. Last thing you want is a failure in the head and end up taking out the bottom end.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to argue. Im just trying to be fair about the comparison.

Smitty275

The only way I will sell the ProComp head is if I build it using parts I trust. I will not buy the assembled head as I don't trust the valves or the springs. Quality hardware will pay for itself many times over.

Smitty275

Not gonna happen very easily. For love the valve reliefs are totally wrong. SBC valves are at a 23° angle. Ours are at a 6° angle. Valve placement in the cylinder is totally different as is the combustion chamber. You'd be doing a lot of modifying of the dome to make it work and would most likely end up with holes in it some where. Most domes are hollowed out underneath to reduce weight.

But even with the 83-84cc chamber you can still build a 10.5:1 to 11:1 BBO if you run a flat top and zero deck. (Just a guess there. Didn't run the numbers. But I'm not too far off.)

olds 307 and 403

There are definitely reasonable price 400 sbc domes out there. The Olds market is tiny and even a second chamber size is probably too much to ask. Out of box Edelbrock heads will work for me, get my short block done this year, then get the heads next year.

815Cutlass1972

Not picking at anyone's statement! I just want to know if there is anyone on this board who has had issues with the valves and springs on the Procomps, or know first-hand of someone who has. I can't seem to find any write ups on this?

J-(Chicago)

I suppose since they are relatively new, there aren't a ton of failures yet.
That being said, I do know from my inference skills that the specs aren't where they're supposed to be.....Otherwise Bernard probably wouldn't offer an inspected and better package.

My take is, if you're a machinist, you can get away with buying the cheap ones and straightening them out to your liking, but I'll guarantee they're cheap for a reason.
Edelbrock heads are expensive, and not "spectacular" out of the box. Just regular ol' heads to drive with.
If something is truly great, It'll bring money, if it sucks, It'll be cheap. Common sense to me.

Edelbrocks cost more money, and they're middle of the road so to speak if you just unbox them and bolt them on.

J-(Chicago)

Paying a knowledgeable fellow like Bernard a little extra coin for something guaranteed good is a no brainer in my opinion. BUT if you're a cheapskate, I'm sure he'll give you a lopsided pair to mess with for cheap.