Proposed text for "numbers matching"

[joe_padavano]

"Matching numbers" or "numbers matching" is the most mis-used term in the collector car hobby (with the possible exceptions of "classic" or "rare"). Starting in 1968, the Feds required a VIN-derivative to be stamped on the engine block and transmission. For Oldsmobile this VIN-derivative was nine characters long and comprised of the first character and last eight characters of the car's VIN. If these numbers match each other and the VIN, then you can be assured that the car has the original engine and trans and this is "numbers matching" (or that the block and trans have been restamped, which is a different problem). Any Olds built prior to the 1968 model year predates these "VIN-derivatives", so there really aren't any numbers to match.

Having said that, there are other, less definitive things like casting numbers and date codes. A certain year and configuration automobile should have specific parts, so these casting numbers must be correct for that factory build configuration. In addition, major items (block, heads, manifolds) will have cast-in date codes, which should predate the build date of the car by one to three months. As I said, these are not definitive since Olds built thousands of cars in that one to three month period. Having a date code or casting code that is clearly incorrect is proof that the part is not original, but just because it is in the correct range doesn't prove it's original. Finally, on the pre-1968 cars Olds stamped an engine unit number on the front of one of the heads. This number does not match the VIN, but certain characters in the number can provide additional (but again non-definitive) proof of originality. For example, the 65-67 442s carried engine numbers that started with the letter "V". A 442 of that vintage without one of these engine numbers clearly doesn't have the original engine. Later Olds engines also carried a paper code tag on the oil fill tube, but these are available as reproductions and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Whenever I see a pre-68 Olds that is advertised as "numbers matching", I immediately ask the seller to please point out the numbers that "match". Of course, there aren't any.

[67post]

Please don't forget that the engine number and VIN can be matched by using the protect-o-plate on pre '68 cars.

[Olds64]

I have always thought the "numbers matching" craze was stupid. I did find a protecto plate for my 71 98 in the glove box though.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

"Matching numbers" or "numbers matching" is the most mis-used term in the collector car hobby (with the possible exceptions of "classic" or "rare"). Starting in 1968, the Feds required a VIN-derivative to be stamped on the engine block and transmission. For Oldsmobile this VIN-derivative was nine characters long and comprised of the first character and last eight characters of the car's VIN. If these numbers match each other and the VIN, then you can be assured that the car has the original engine and trans and this is "numbers matching" (or that the block and trans have been restamped, which is a different problem). Any Olds built prior to the 1968 model year predates these "VIN-derivatives", so there really aren't any numbers to match.

Having said that, there are other, less definitive things like casting numbers and date codes. A certain year and configuration automobile should have specific parts, so these casting numbers must be correct for that factory build configuration. In addition, major items (block, heads, manifolds) will have cast-in date codes, which should predate the build date of the car by one to three months. As I said, these are not definitive since Olds built thousands of cars in that one to three month period. Having a date code or casting code that is clearly incorrect is proof that the part is not original, but just because it is in the correct range doesn't prove it's original. Finally, on the pre-1968 cars Olds stamped an engine unit number on the front of one of the heads. This number does not match the VIN, but certain characters in the number can provide additional (but again non-definitive) proof of originality. For example, the 65-67 442s carried engine numbers that started with the letter "V". A 442 of that vintage without one of these engine numbers clearly doesn't have the original engine. Later Olds engines also carried a paper code tag on the oil fill tube, but these are available as reproductions and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Whenever I see a pre-68 Olds that is advertised as "numbers matching", I immediately ask the seller to please point out the numbers that "match". Of course, there aren't any.

First, I'd like to put the term "original" right up there with "numbers matching" for miss-use and abuse. But discussion of "original" should be another thread. I don't believe *either* term should be used by itself without further explanation, because by themselves, the terms are meaningless.

As '67 post says, pre-68s can have numbers matching with the POP. And the build sheet.
I think even '68s and newer cars being claimed to be "numbers matching" are not necessarily referring to the VIN match on the engine and trans.

What it boils down to with me is that any reference to "numbers matching" has to include what "numbers match what" to mean anything.

[gearheads78]

All the more reason to build it like you want to big wheels and all

95% of the "matching numbers" and original cars are just recreations of what the owner / builder think it was. To me the only cars worth big money should be real unrestored survivor cars. It looks nice to build up the primer thick and block them out arrow strait but thats no where near what it left the showroom like. Just do what you want with a car and don't worry about it. Its better than being reincarnated as a Honda.

[citcapp]

I agree, just keeping our cars alive for all to enjoy is enough for me.

[Jamesbo]

Historically speaking,When did this "numbers matching" craze begin? Was it with Vettes?

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by wmachine

First, I'd like to put the term "original" right up there with "numbers matching" for miss-use and abuse. But discussion of "original" should be another thread. I don't believe *either* term should be used by itself without further explanation, because by themselves, the terms are meaningless.

As '67 post says, pre-68s can have numbers matching with the POP. And the build sheet.
I think even '68s and newer cars being claimed to be "numbers matching" are not necessarily referring to the VIN match on the engine and trans.

What it boils down to with me is that any reference to "numbers matching" has to include what "numbers match what" to mean anything.

You are correct, and I'm completely reworking this text (to be less confrontational, for one thing. )

One question. What year was the P-O-P first used with engine and trans numbers, and when did it transition to the plastic version with only the VIN and dealer info? I've found references back to 1962. Was it earlier?

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

One question. What year was the P-O-P first used with engine and trans numbers, and when did it transition to the plastic version with only the VIN and dealer info? I've found references back to 1962. Was it earlier?

Hey, that's 2 questions, Joe!!

I don't know what the first year was, but '68 was the last year. '69s got the plastic cards.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

95% of the "matching numbers" and original cars are just recreations of what the owner / builder think it was. To me the only cars worth big money should be real unrestored survivor cars. It looks nice to build up the primer thick and block them out arrow strait but thats no where near what it left the showroom like. Just do what you want with a car and don't worry about it. Its better than being reincarnated as a Honda.

I'm not so sure about the first sentence. But you bring up an excellent point regarding the unrestored cars. I agree that *they* should be the valuable ones. A car "can be original only once, but restored an unlimited amount of times". For some reason, enthusiasts as a whole put more importance and value on fully restored cars. Sure, I believe they should be "preserved", but that often does *not* mean they have to be restored. Even OCA, by means of their judging system, encourages full restorations, thereby destroying originality of cars. Sure there is an "unrestored" class. One little class that is treated like an ugly duckling.
So let me add the word "preservation" to the words and phrases we should be using. And the word "correct" where far too often "original" is used. But again, this should be another thread.

Sure you can do whatever you want with your car. And there is no need to try to "preserve" every car, nor make every car "correct". But there is obviously a huge contingency out there that *is* interested in exactly how they came from the factory. And some of us want establish and "preserve" this information! As my good friend Ron Forsee would say, we need to be on guard for "truth decay".....

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Hey, that's 2 questions, Joe!!

"...Our main weapon is fear. Fear and surprise, our two main weapons..."

I don't know what the first year was, but '68 was the last year. '69s got the plastic cards.

But did P-O-Ps after 1967 have any kind of engine unit number? Would it have been the one on the oil fill tube? Were the plastic P-O-Ps all of the same layout every year, or did they change?

[gearheads78]

I was exagerating a little but you know what I was getting at. Many many parts on muscle cars were thrown out years ago and many bodies were rusted or crashed beyond repair. The whole idea of scouging for years to get just the right date in an intake, set of wheels, or exhaust manifold just does not do it for me. As most know here my taste goes through a broad range from restored original to very custom but like you said they are only original once.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

I was exagerating a little but you know what I was getting at. Many many parts on muscle cars were thrown out years ago and many bodies were rusted or crashed beyond repair. The whole idea of scouging for years to get just the right date in an intake, set of wheels, or exhaust manifold just does not do it for me. As most know here my taste goes through a broad range from restored original to very custom but like you said they are only original once.

I agree completely. To me, simply having the right date coded parts is worthless. Any given car could have been built with date codes ranging for at least a month prior to the build date. The fact that a particular intake has a date code in that range is meaningless since there were likely several thousand parts made with date codes in that range. To me, the only "matching numbers" that matter are the ones that actually MATCH. That's why I harp on the VIN derivative (or traceability to the P-O-P). Of course, for 1967-earlier cars, that just means that ONE head is original...

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

"
But did P-O-Ps after 1967 have any kind of engine unit number? Would it have been the one on the oil fill tube? Were the plastic P-O-Ps all of the same layout every year, or did they change?

As with previous years, '68 POPs had the engine unit number. But yes, in '68 it was the one on the oil tube. So technically, prior to '68 you can "match" the head, and in '68 you'd "match" to tube. But of course in '68, the VIN "match" is much more positive.

Engine numbers aren't on '69+ POPs. I'll look into what's on them and let you know. Product Information Manuals (aka "assembly manuals") have a page on POPs.

[Bluevista]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

Historically speaking,When did this "numbers matching" craze begin? Was it with Vettes?

The first time I heard the term "numbers matching" used a lot it was for making sure the engine wasn't stolen, transmissions were commonly removed and replaced so no big deal with them. In the late 60's early 70's there were a lot of engines blown and all the gearheads wanted to upgrade so there was a market for them, Midnight Auto Supply was very popular. The Highway Patrol and some local law would check (they knew what engines were "popular") and if the "numbers" didn't match and you couldn't prove where the engine came from with paperwork they seized the car.
There were a few cars in the Barrett-Jackson auction that should of had VIN/engine number matching that said "all numbers on car match, engine is date code correct", what a can of worms.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by amh555

The first time I heard the term "numbers matching" used a lot it was for making sure the engine wasn't stolen, transmissions were commonly removed and replaced so no big deal with them...

The whole reason for the VIN derivative on the block and trans case was federal requirements in an attempt to curtail auto theft and chop shops. In later years the VIN was required to be etched on glass and major components like body panels.

[slowolds]

Did you hear one of the 'Great Barrett-Jackson' heads talk about the re-bodied Yenko Nova????

His position: It's still a real Yenko. Why?????

If you have George Washington's axe that felled the cherry tree and the handle was gone and you replaced it, it was still the same hatchet.

[68conv455]

Here's how I see it:
If bad guys can counterfeit a $20 bill, or, a $100 bill manufactured with seceret techniques, paper and ink. Then.... bad guys can counterfeit data plates, build sheets, POP's, mill and re-stamp engines etc.
My point is... be happy with your non-matching car and buy another one with the money you save.
Disclaimer. - If I was lucky enough to have a high dollar matching # car I would be arguing the other side.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by 68conv455

Disclaimer. - If I was lucky enough to have a high dollar matching # car I would be arguing the other side.

Ah, there is the very honest truth to the matter. Not even being a high dollar car, just "numbers matching". I hear a *lot* of talk out there about how worthless and unimportant it is. But:
1. Almost all of this talk is coming from those that don't have them, and most of the talk comes from those that have a vested interest in the numbers *not* matching. By that I mean that they are or have or plan to sell a car that does not have "matching numbers".
2. And this is the biggest smoking gun: If it is *not* so darned important, then why is there such an interest and effort to have/make/fake "matching numbers"???? A lot of trouble to go to if it doesn't really matter!

Here's a snapshot of how bad it is: A '66 442 convertible was recently offered on E-bay (ended a no-sale). It was an original 4-speed 442. A profiteer (who parades around as an enthusiast) decided that he didn't like that it had been repainted red, though is was originally green. His greed prompted him to put a reproduction body tag on the car changing the color to red to "match". Being a real 4-speed 442 wasn't good enough for him. So he destroyed the documentation (the original body tag) to feed his shameless greed. And the car *was* being advertised as an original red car.

[aliensatemybuick]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Ah, there is the very honest truth to the matter. Not even being a high dollar car, just "numbers matching". I hear a *lot* of talk out there about how worthless and unimportant it is. But:
1. Almost all of this talk is coming from those that don't have them, and most of the talk comes from those that have a vested interest in the numbers *not* matching. By that I mean that they are or have or plan to sell a car that does not have "matching numbers".
2. And this is the biggest smoking gun: If it is *not* so darned important, then why is there such an interest and effort to have/make/fake "matching numbers"???? A lot of trouble to go to if it doesn't really matter!

Here's a snapshot of how bad it is: A '66 442 convertible was recently offered on E-bay (ended a no-sale). It was an original 4-speed 442. A profiteer (who parades around as an enthusiast) decided that he didn't like that it had been repainted red, though is was originally green. His greed prompted him to put a reproduction body tag on the car changing the color to red to "match". Being a real 4-speed 442 wasn't good enough for him. So he destroyed the documentation (the original body tag) to feed his shameless greed. And the car *was* being advertised as an original red car.

Ah, you mean my old car...I was half expecting it to come across the block at BJ last week. As you said, the cowl/trim tag was changed on that car sometime between my selling it in March 2006 and now. Interestingly, when bombarded by E-mails by those familar with the car's history during the auction, the seller finally acknowledged (on the last day of the auction) that the color may have been changed, yet maintained that he was certain it was a real 4 speed 442 convertible. I would argue that since the tag currently indicates that it was a factory red car (Impossible!; if there is any doubt, one can remove the sunvisor supports to see the original color), ANYTHING the current tag says is subject to question. It may as well as been a column shifted automatic, 330 equipped, peg-leg Cutlass now. In fact, I'll swear on a stack on a bibles that when I owned the car, that's what it was, haw haw!

Seriously, though, if a tag can be changed to match the current color of a car, who is to say it can;t be changes to "make" a car whatever you want it to be (a 442, not a Cutlass; a 4 speed, not a Jetaway; etc etc). its a pity what use some people will use expert knowledge of trim tag codes to.

BEFORE (Forest Mist with parchment interior, remote mirror and power driver's seat):


AFTER (Target Red with black interior, codes for remote mirror and power driver' seat deleted):