rz66046

Hi: I recently purchased what I thought was a classic '77 Cutlass which was advertized on ebay with having a 350 Olds engine. The color of the engine appeared to be the correct Olds blue & the huge sticker on the air breather reads "Oldsmobile 350." The car was running rough so I decided to tune it up. When I took the oil filter off it was a Fram PH11. When I went to the parts store their computer said I needed a Fram PH25. I was puzzled but brought the new oil filter home & it did not fit at all. I took the old filter back to the parts store & their computer said the Fram PH11 was for an early 1960's Pontiac engine! You can imagine my response! This happened yesterday so I've been doing a lot of research & I've learned that the '77 350 has the engine block casting numbers in plain view on the top of the motor. My engine has no such numbering at all. The only numbers I can find appear to be a "PMD" stamp on both sides of the block (I'm assuming "Pontiac Motor Division," & I did see the numbers "417754 RH" stamped on the exhaust manifold on the passenger's side. I'm desperate to get some answers fast as I am filing a complaint with ebay about the seller & I only have a few days so ANY help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Rich.

Fakser

A picture would help but the water neck on a pontiac faces the driver side of the engine where an olds faces the front.

2blu442

Well, that exhaut manifold number sounds correct for a mid-1970's Olds 350. Here's a picture of a 1971 350 with a newer intake manifold. See the #7 at the drivers side front corner of the head? All Olds small blocks should have a number here and the late 70's and newer ones have a number and a letter in this spot. I'll look for a thread that shows other locations for numbers on Olds engines.

Also I'm not a Poncho expert but I thought they had a gap between the intake manifold and the valley, a place where you can stick your hand. You can see the intake here fits tight against the heads. John



P1010206.jpg

2blu442

OK, if its an Olds 350 engine this will show you where to look for the numbers to key it out. Let us know if you need any other information. John


https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...s-engines.html

rocketraider

Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Cadillac engines could all use the same spin-on oil filter and did for years. Chevy was the oddball and in fact used a cartridge filter thru 1967, long after the others switched to spin-ons in 1960.

PH11 is simply a larger capacity filter than the PH25 and it was used in place of the AC PF7 on early 60s BOPCad. PH25 replaces an AC PF24, which btw is an approved substitute for PF7 on an early 60s Pontiac engine.

Do your valve covers look like the ones in John's picture (Olds engine), or are they rectangular with four bolts holding them down and wider than Chevy valve covers?

Now, when you say it doesn't fit, do you mean the thread is wrong, the gasket sealing surface is wrong, or it's too long/short/fat to fit where it needs to go?

Why are you fooling with a Fram filter anyway? If you don't use the AC-Delco replacement (which I don't even know what it is right now, only that they no longer support the PF24 and PF30) at least use a Purolator, WIX, or NAPA Gold.

rjohnson442

EASY is the distributor going through the intake or is it behind it? FYI 350's were gold 455 were blue. Although some people swap the colors IE: the guy next to you with the gold 350 is really about to smoke you with his painted 455

copper128

Not in '77.

They were all GM "corporate blue".

droptopron

Also an Olds engine will have an oil spout on the front of the engine like ion the picture where as a pontiac engine will not. If you can't post a pic post the link to the EBay ad.

Mike77

Can't be that much of an issue, hasn't even replied to his request for "fast" help.

rz66046

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OK, sorry, it's taken longer than I thought to get all this info, but first I want to say a big thanks to all for trying to help & writing in, I really appreciate it!

OK, I actually own two '77 Cutlasses, one black, with confirmed info, & a silver one I just bought off ebay.

Photo 1 is a shot of the engine casting numbers for the black one looking down on the front of the motor, these numbers are 557752-3B (the silver car has no numbers at all at this location).

Photo 2 is a shot of the large oil fill tube. Both tubes have their own numbers. The black car is 7871341 & the silver car is 7653190.

Photo 3 is a shot of the intake & distributor on the silver car. This intake has two sets of casting numbers: The top set is "411990" & the bottom set is "D5CE."

Photo 4 is a shot of a "PMD" casting which is on both sides of the silver car's block. (This is what prompted me to think it may be a Pontiac Motor Division?).

Photo 5 is just another shot of the other "PMD" on the opposite side of the silver car's engine.

The black car also has these stamps but they read "CM6" on each side.

Also on the oil filters - The screw in hole for the Fram PH25 filter is a smaller diameter than the PH11. The parts store guy swears the book says the PH25 is what fits a '77 Olds 350 motor, but it does NOT fit on the engine of the silver car. The PH11 is also taller so it would hold more volume & the PH11 DOES fit the silver car.

So anyway, this is a lot of info & any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again!

Rich



So this is a lot of info, any help is greatly appreciated!

copper128

Pontiac division cast some of the late 350 cylinder heads for Olds. That's an Olds engine.

MDchanic

No car from 1977 is a classic, and certainly no Olds.
You've got an Olds smallblock there, with late-model, 5-valve-cover-screw Pontiac-cast heads.

I can't exactly identify the block from the casting number, myself, but it does look to be contemporary with the car. The heads don't happen to say "2A" on them, do they?

- Eric

copper128

It's a 557752-3 block with 3A heads. Late 70's 350.

Chuck_66

That is an Oldsmobile motor has a bypass hose coming off the thermostat housing just below the upper radiator hose difficult to tell what year but it's later than 67

Octania

It's a 350 Olds
"5" on RH exhaust manifold
no worries

easy to replace with your favorite 403...

rz66046

I'm assuming the numbers on the oil fill tube have no meaning?

MDchanic

Not to mere mortals, anyway.

If someone one day successfully elicits meaning from them, he will be as a god.

- Eric

rz66046

Wow! I would have thought someone would have decoded those by now,

MDchanic

It's some kind of a sequential engine number (and I don't think it's there for every year).
The engine's "part number" was a two letter code on a printed label attached to the oil fill tube, and was no longer needed after the car was assembled, so was not made to stay on for very long.
The block's casting number is on the shelf in front, and they are well documented.
The block's mold number is on the shelf in back, by the distributor hole.
The engine number, providing both engine type and sequential information, is stamped on a pad on the front side of the right-hand head on '67 and earlier engines.
The VIN-derivative ('68 and later), which associates the engine with a car (and a year, and a plant), is on the left-hand side pad, but carries no information about the engine itself.

- Eric

copper128

OK, after taking another look I think I have this solved.
If your photo #2 above is the engine in the silver car - the engine you say has no block casting number - take a look at the photo again. Especially the casting number area behind the timing cover. It appears that space has a sheetmetal cover of some sort over it. You can see where the wire or hose goes through a notch under the cover. Your casting number is under that cover. No doubt it'll be the same late Olds 350 block # as the other one.

MDchanic

Yes, that cover holds a vacuum check valve for the EGR on later motors.
It isn't seen much because people pulled all that stuff off and threw it out, for better or worse.

- Eric

arodenhiser

Check here... Scroll down to Small Identifacation.

http://www.oldsmobilewiki.com/index.php/Category:Blocks

Block Casting 557752-3B is a 1977-1980 Small Block 350 by Oldsmobile. I think is is the widowed block so it is not as structuraly strong as the previous 1968-1976 350's.

Adam


EDIT. just realized that you had pics of TWO engines, sorry. Copper has it right, your casting # is hiding from you.

J-(Chicago)

Congratulations on owning 2 Olds powered 77's. I love those things, and they are what got me into Oldsmobiles. My Dad had a 75 monte and a 76' cutlass wagon that I adored as a punk kid.
Never mind MD's comment. I joined this site 6 years ago thinking my 1985 should be a classic once all the chrome was disappearing from all the american car bumpers. . MD's a very helpful fellow, so keep your ears perked. Welcome to CO!

rocketraider

And caused guys like me, who want it as built, to part with ludicrous sums of money to get the stuff back! I've denuded many junkyard engines of their check valves and shrouds.

I was lucky. Both the Hurst/Olds and the Ninety Eight still had all their stuff intact, which was a big attraction for both.

Besides, if you just want the appearance, a well placed BB in the vacuum hose will disable all the stuff.

1ATony

Welcome to the site

rz66046

Wow! You guys are awesome! & you nailed it! I had my Dad over at my house & we have crawled all over this car trying to find the numbers & they were right there under our noses the whole time! ..... I looked right at that area of the engine several times & I thought I was looking at the top of the block! After getting these emails I went out & stuck a screwdriver down into that area & the metal cover moved! Then we finally got the thing out of the way but I saw no numbers, so I got some WD-40 & sprayed it into that valley & started rubbing the grease away & the numbers started appearing - I felt like I was winning one of those scratch off lottery tickets! ...... - I had another silver '77 Brougham just like this one about 30 years ago when my daughter was about 2 years old - so tons of sentimental value with this car. My wife can tell you how down I've been ..... I was convinced I'd been ripped off & scammed about the originality of this car & I was even entertaining legal action but now I feel like a ton of bricks have been lifted off my shoulders ....... I would like to show my appreciation, especially to the Luietenant, for all your help - my home email is rz66046@mail.com ,drop me a line & I'll send you a gift certificate for dinner, it's the least I can do, I was convinced I bought a car that was still OK, but not original, & now I know I have the original engine in a car with 23K original miles so this is a big deal for me! Thanks again!

Rich

rz66046

*Btw, the numbers on both cars are 557752-3B. There's still a bit of a mystery because on the driver's engine bank the digits are "3A" & on the silver's one is "5A." The bolt sizes on the engine block where the oil filters screw on are different sizes. The silver accepts a Fram PH11 while the black one takes a Fram PH25. Maybe it has something to do with Pontiac helping out on producing blocks? Anyway, just an fyi. Thanks again!

Rich

MDchanic

Guys - a quick question for those with experience with these later motors:

I was under the impression that 5A heads came on 307s and 3A heads came on 350s - Is that correct?

Also, to summarize what I believe to have been described here, there are two 1977 Olds Cutlasses, each with block casting number 557752-3B, one with 5A heads, and one with 3A heads.

Am I mistaken that the 5A heads and the 557752-3B block should not be found together, and that the correct block casting number for the 5A heads would be 3161-5A?

Thanks,

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

Glad you got most of your mysteries solved now. However, they are many of them when buying such an old car. I have had many from mine, some still unsolved...
While they both may have Olds blocks, the heads could have been swapped at some time, or maybe the oil filter adapter was replaced with an incorrect one (if it can be done)...
Have fun with your new ride!

MDchanic

Thing is, I thought the runners of the 307 heads didn't quite line up with the 350 intake - but then maybe both were changed...

- Eric

rz66046

This silver Cutlass I bought had 23K original miles, I have documentation from the State of Florida. The State also confirms it was a one owner vehicle since new. The owner was an elderly man who was retired & didn't drive it much. The car has no rust, no door dings, & an immaculate black Brougham interior. The motor looks dated, but the original owner's son swears the car has the original engine & it has not been altered since new. However, as I've said, it does have the "5A" stamp on the right front of the engine & the oil filter that fits it is not the correct size, as far as O'Rielly's auto part's computer says. Could the old records possibly be wrong? I'm still mystified about the oil filter because I changed thos myself & they are without doubt different hole diameters, the hole on the PH25 is too small to fit on the engine block stud. At any rate, there you have it, Thanks!

Rich

J-(Chicago)

I believe the silver car to be altered, if it has 5A heads on top of it.

You're probably better off with those anyway.

The 3A heads always had problems cracking on the exhaust side.

J-(Chicago)

There are 3 different 307 versions, Eric. There were also 4A heads put into production as well.

The 80-84 307 "Y motors" were flat tappet motors with tame cams. Indicated by
The Y designation in the VIN. 4A,5A,and 6A heads I believe. I don't remember if 6a's came on flat tappet motors or not.

The 85-90 307 "Y motors" were roller cammed motors, with shrunken ports. These are probably the ones you were thinking of. Usually have A5 intake and 7A heads.

There are also 307 "Vin 9" motors. That followed the same path, but a year or so off. VIN 9 Cars were the ones with bigger cams for hurst/442/specialty models.

DeltaPace77

While seems all turned out well for you, there are a few more things to throw in the pot. Some 77' Olds 88's, actually came factory equipped with SB 350 Chevy engines. Also, Fram and AC/Delco filter numbers sometimes aren't the same. Found this out when owning a mid 90's Z-28 Camaro. Used an AC/Delco PF-25 filter, and fit fine. Later bought a Fram PH-25, that srewed on, but the rubber gasket was a much larger circle, and didn't seal at all. Started the engine to test, and oil was flying everywhere. Just shows, the numbers aren't the same, accross the board.

Redog

Yeah that is an Olds motor with Pontaic heads. IDK too much about the PMD heads, but I do know that after 1975 the EPA was killing all the cars being made Of course, today's Hybrids, which are far worse, are OK

Wrong! Usually a car is deemed a classic at 20 years old. Here in PA it's a classic at 15 and antique at 25. 1977 car is 35 years old.

And exactly what do you mean it's isn't an Olds? It's a Cutlass, with an Olds motor. True it has PMD heads, but are you saying that my two Oldsmobiles are not Oldsmobiles?

Yes my Alero is the V6 engine, not the 2.4 twin cam based off the 2.3 HO motor of the early 90's. My car CAME from the factory like that. I didn't pull out the 2.4 Twin Cam and stuff in a V6 engine. Also my Delta has the 307 Y motor (85-90) that is an Olds Motor! And guess what is goingto replace it? Not an LSx, but a 1967 330 SBO.

Redog

A lot of Oldsmobile were coming from the factory with SBC in them backin the the late 1970's. In fact I've heard GM was sued for this and forced to replace the SBC with SBO. The Cutlass and Delta 88's were also in the mix.

I looked at a 1979 Delta 88 (what a POS) and it had a Pontaic 301 motor. Other options were the 260, 305, 350 SBC, 350 SBO and there was one other one but I forget

MDchanic

No. A classic is a particular model from a particular year range that is deemed by the Classis Car Club of America to have unusual historic significance.
Examples include Dusenbergs, front wheel drive Cords, Bugattis, 1940s Lincoln Continentals (but not the nearly-identical Lincoln Zephyrs), Ferrari GTOs, etc.
Everything else is just an old car.

"No car from 1977 is a classic, and certainly no Olds."
I mean that no Olds is a classic. Sorry.
GM made far too many of them, and workmanship was far too haphazard for them to ever become true classics.
A 1970 Aston Martin - maybe. A 1970 Olds - no way.

- Eric

Mike77

I think what MD is saying is no Olds is a classic. Kind of an odd statement to put on an Olds forum.
Yes Gm was sued for having Chevy motors in Oldsmobiles'. Basically they were selling so many cars, (over a million Olds alone in 77), they had engine production problems. Hence the begining of the Corporate motor. The idea was GM motor are all the same. So paint them all Corporate Blue and stuff what ever was plentiful in to what ever car it fit. Thats why Pontiac heads on Olds motor, Olds motors in Trans Am's, Chevy motors in Olds.etc. Doesn't matter all GM motors are the same.
Apparently some customers didn't think that was a good idea, neither did the judge at the trial.
But all in all not a bad problem to have , selling too many cars! GM would kill to have that problem today.

Mike

Mike77

PS I just saw MD response to the " classic" That is a very debatable topic. What's the definition of a classic car?

MDchanic

On a forum called "Classic Oldsmobile," no less.

But it's true. None of our run-of-the mill cars are classics.

They're nice, they're fun, they're occasionally valuable (look at Lee Pear's eBay auction ), but they're routine GM schlock.

Sure, some of our members have thousands of hours worth of meticulous machine or cosmetic work into their cars, but that's their work, not GM's.

If you've never taken apart a contemporary high-end car, like a Porsche, it's hard to see how very little distance above lawn tractors our cars really are.

They will be fondly remembered, but in the same group as the Model T, and not in that of the Facel Vega.

No offense, but there's no sense deluding ourselves.

- Eric