The Hotrod Handyman

How can I verify the authenticity of a 70 W-30? The car has very limited history available and no documentation. What are some of the things I should look for to determine if it is the real deal or a clone?

GAOldsman

The Search icon above is your friend, as this has been touched on at least once every few months.

If it is an automatic then it would have an OW stamped tag on the transmission passenger's side. On the driver's side of the trans will be a 9 digit VIN derivative code that will have a 39MXXXXXX (the X's are the last six digits of the car's VIN)

dnmfranco

all made in Lansing
should have D heads
see if carb ends in 254
look for water pump pulley to be KA
should have four core rad and top plate
if auto as GA mentioned OW tag if manual M-21 only
Axel ratio should be TM or TO 342 and 391 respectively
Must have red inner fender wells see if they are consistent w the age of the car

But your car could have all the a fore mentioned and still be a clone so without paper work or tracing prior ownership its hard.

hope that helps dean

dnmfranco

PS
I live in northwest corner of Ct and would be happy to come check it out

Allan R

Well, first off I'd have to say that documents from your car that support it's heritage would be the best way to verify. What is the 'very limited history' you have?

Scot gave you the best form of research on this forum that lets you search out the info you want without re-hashing it. If you have problems finding that info let us know and we can link it for you or post some specific details. Start by verifying if it's a Lansing car - only W30's were built at Lansing. VIN should start out as 344679M(XXXXXX). Note: The VIN and Vin derivative Scot posted are not exactly the same things. The VIN derivative is found on the block, trans, and frame of the car and are basically used to identify if those parts are the ones the car was born with. The VIN is the cars birth certificate you use for registering it at DMV. (you probably knew that though)

The Hotrod Handyman

The "limited history" is what is coming from the 70+ year old previous owner can remember, NO paper trail whatsoever other than he purchased it in California from the second owner when he moved to Florida years ago. The car does have what appear to be original red fender liners. The short block was supposedly replaced in the late 70's with a 71 short block. It is supposed to have the original top end, (heads, manifolds etc) I'll get more details and some numbers this weekend. Thanks for all the info so far.

Allan R

If it's missing the original engine I think you're out of luck and likely you'll never be able to document its real history. It'll never be a W30 without that. The W30 option was primarily the engine and force air induction with some other goodies.

The Hotrod Handyman

It still has the original heads, induction and all accessories. The ONLY thing changed was the block & crank. Has the correct cam, pistons etc for the W30 along with the entire original top end.

dnmfranco

there are other things to check for instance check your build date on cowl tag then check date codes on the D heads, carb and ect.
Its no surprise the original G block is gone as many of them are
So sounds like you have an F block now

oldsmobiledave

Allan did you just say that a factory W-30 car is no longer a W-30 once the original engine is gone? Please clarify this statement. Because if that is what you meant to say you are in for a long argument.


OK. I have re-read all of this & I think I follow what Allan is saying is that this particular car is just a 442 without documentation since the critical drivetrain parts are missing. I took his above statement to mean any W-30 car without its' original engine is no longer a W-30.

Carry on.

MDchanic

I would agree with Allan.

The engine is the heart of the W30. With no paper documentation, and without a numbers-matching OW transmission, if the block was changed then there is no way to prove it is a W30, and, since any other parts could have been added later, it therefore has the value and provenance of a clone, whether it is real or not.

- Eric

1969w3155

Possibly the broadcast card is somewhere under the carpet or rear seat, and would have W30 on it.

Fun71

Just for clarification: I think what you meant to say is that W-30s were built only at the Lansing plant and not at the other plants.
Lansing built cars other than W-30s.

The Hotrod Handyman

OK guys, It looks like I have made a huge mistake in my original post AND the title of this thread. I have not seen the car as of yet. The car is a recent purchase that belongs to a friend and I thought he said it was a 69 convertible BUT it is not, It is a 70 coupe. I'm sure this makes a huge difference in all the info posted here and makes this thread pretty much usless. Should I start a new thread for the 70 or is there a way I can change the title?

The Hotrod Handyman

Here is a partial VIN from the car; Vin 344870MI74XXX. I have a few pictures I'll post up shortly.

Tried to post pics but got this message;

Octania

"ADVANCE" edit should allow you to change the title to suit
That one got me for a while also.

Looks like a 442 VIN
You show an "I" after the M whereas it is a "one"

So it has F heads and the AL intake?
More things to check:
Dates on the F heads and intake
Still ck the auto trans ID tag and VIN stamp
Get the carb number
check the distributor number

While not crucial, a proper factory water pump casting "X" on the RH outlet boss is a bonus.

I will defer to others better versed in the 1970 models for more detail info.

It seems to me like if you have an auto trans "OW" with VIN stamp to match the car, then, much like a '68-9, you have proved W30-ness. OTOH, if you have a manual trans, the task is much more difficult.

1969w3155

Your pics have to be downsized.

The Hotrod Handyman

It does have the "F" heads and the aluminum intake. It also has a "W" on the exhaust manifolds and is an auto trans car. I'll try to downsize my pictures and post them later. The advanced edit allowed me to change my post but not the original thread title.

The Hotrod Handyman

Thanks, I'll give that a try shortly.

Octania

rt click file
open with...
Pain[t]

Ctrl-W to resize
try 30%-30%
you can always undo
save only if you like what you did
voila'

repeat

your priorities are now
Trans Tag
Trans VIN stamp
engine VIN stamp, on block, directly underneath the "F" on the head. On the vertical wall flat surface
it should be 30M1xxxxx
3= Olds
_0 = 1970
__M = Michigan built car
___1xxxxx = matches the VIN tag last 6 sequential digits.

Same thing will be on the trans, LH side, in the textured cast area just above the pan gasket, about midway fore-aft along the pan.

PS the "W" on the exhaust manifold is good, but not really a W30 part only. That, and the "Z" on the other manifold are just casting main ID letters. Vista cruisers might use the W-Z pair, and even 88/98's later.

oldsmobiledave

It can not have a W on both exhaust manifolds. One will be a W & the others should be a Z. Look again. If not a Z what is it?

The Hotrod Handyman

I have a picture of only one manifold showing a "W". I'm not sure what the other is, Only assumed incorrectly I guess.

The Hotrod Handyman

I already know the block has been replaced with a 71 or 72 block. Aside from engine/trans numbers is there ANYTHING on the car body or frame that will help verify it is a real W-30 car?

The Hotrod Handyman

OK, I resized the pics.

The Hotrod Handyman

One more.

2blu442

Well, I'm going to disagree with the main flow of this thread. As far as re-sell value yes, if there's no documentation a non-numbers matching W30 can be viewed as a 442 with some W30 options bolted on it. I have a 1969 W30 that's missing the drive train. But I've talked with a previous owner who had it in the early 1980's when it was all there and has confirmed he junked the original engine when it cracked from lack of antifreeze, and swapped out the auto transmission when it died. I will consider this a true W30 and document any clues I find when restoring it as such. I will not expect to ever sell it for W30 prices but will tell people exactly what I know about the car and its history.

OK, back to the OP, you need to check the tag attached to the side of the automatic transmission. It will have a two letter code painted and stamped into it. The original W30 transmission will have an OW code. There will also be a portion of the vin number stamped into this tag. As mentioned by other members if that's there, unless its been replaced with a reproduction, that should confirm its a W30 car.

Octania

OK, back to the OP, you need to check the tag attached to the side of the automatic transmission. It will have a two letter code painted and stamped into it. The original W30 transmission will have an OW code. There will also be a portion of the vin number stamped into this tag. As mentioned by other members if that's there, unless its been replaced with a reproduction, that should confirm its a W30 car.
============================

you are down to the trans tag and its VIN stamp.
Do that next.
The number on the trans tag has NOTHING to do with the VIN
The VIN derivative is as I set forth above.
Trans tag is either OW or not, so go from there.

2blu442

Whoops! your right Chris. My head must be foggy as I forgot the vin is stamped into the transmission on the drivers side. I've got a photograph of the location on my photobucket site. I'll try to find it and post it here. John

2blu442

Here's the vin location for your vintage of TH400 transmission.

P1010155.jpg

P1010154.jpg

I'm not sure if I have a photo of the tag with the two letter code. If I can find one I'll post it. John

Octania

THANK YOU 2blu!!!!!

Finally a danged PHOTO of that location.

You may shame me into stepping out and taking pix of my OW tag and the VIN stamp.

Allan R

I have these saved on my picture files from John (2blu442) from a long time ago when this topic came up before. I don't know what brand trans this is but it's a TH350.





General Question: If the stamping is on the side with the shift linkage that should make it the passenger side on an Olds wouldn't it?

halfmoontrail

I'm pretty sure W30 would not have had power brakes - of course my '70 W30 has had a booster added over the years.
Steve

Allan R

The 328° cam required manual disc brake component for factory original W30's. Could be MT or AT, just no power brakes.

wmachine

Back up, here. The auto W30 had the 285 deg cam and could have AC and power brakes.

Allan R

My post was specific to the 328° cam. Maybe I just expressed the wording wrong. But the intent was to say if the car had a 328° cam, Lansing wouldn't have built it with power brakes.

Why couldn't a W30 with AT have manual brakes and a 328°cam? I thought that was the nature of the cam and vacuum issue. Are you saying that there wasn't enough vacuum from a 328° cam for even the trans vacuum modulator??? Or did you mistake my AT for AC?

2blu442

OK, here's pictures of the transmission tag from a 1971 full sized car, TH400 transmission. Note the ink shows the two letter code being OR on this transmission. Then there's stamped into it 71-OR which I believe represents 1971 with the OR application. So the factory 1970 W30 automatic transmission would have an OW in the paint, plus 70-OW stamped into the tag. I've seen photos and am not positive but believe the paint on your tag should be yellow. Sometimes when the transmissions are rebuilt they are cleaned with solvents that remove the paint, but you'll still have the numbers/letters stamped into the tag. Let us know what you find when you look at your transmission. John

P2220296.jpg

P2220299.jpg

Allan R

John,
Here's a listing of the O- codes for 1971. Taken as an exerpt from the WAC site 1971 CSM.

wmachine

The reason you couldn't have the 328 cam with power brakes is still vacuum related.
The 328 cam was 4-spd only, no power brakes or AC. Does not apply in this case because it is an automatic. The automatic W30 has a milder cam and can be had with power brakes and AC, as is relevant to this car.

Allan R

Ok, I understood the part about vacuum and MT. Just didn't realize that ALL W30 Automatic transmission cars got a different cam. Thanks for clarifying. AC isn't anything I brought up BTW. EDIT: oops. I just went back and looked at the pics. Never mind.....

joe_padavano

The red inner fenders on this car look like repros. The raised bosses on the driver's side inner fender lack the definition of the sharp edges that is typical of repro inner fenders.