Macadoo

I hope this is the right forum.

My daughter overheated her Intrigue a few weeks back. It had blown a "coolant tube", something I'd never heard of. Repair was easy enough. However....

The engine is losing A LOT of oil; a couple of quarts a week. I had it looked at and they said it's coming from the intake gaskets. Makes sense, she warped the intake, yes? I hadn't thought about that. I've been watching the radiator and oil and I don't see any mixing so I'm hoping the heads are okay. Would a compression test verify that?
Anything else I should look for before committing to doing this repair? If I can do the repair myself, "she who must be obeyed" said it would buy me that 200-4r for my '71 CS so I'm motivated but I don't want to waist my time if the engine is trashed.

Macadoo

I should have mentioned; I have a '98 Intrigue donor car for the intake manifold and other needed parts. We retired it at 280k + miles so I don't want to just swap engines.

illumined

From what I've read blowing intake gaskets seems to be a common thing with the Series 2, if this site is to be believed anyway. Can you determine where the oil is going? Is it going onto the ground?

oldsguybry

Well , if it's the same 2.4 DOHC like the one in our 01 Cheby Cavalier Z24 ( Later Oldsmobiles used that motor ) then it's no surprise that the oil magically disappears . that's what it does on our car . Where it goes is a mystery to me anyways . My old boss at work had a alero with that a mechanic said the oil is running into the exhaust and fouling up the catalytic convertor . I really don't know if this is the answer or not ..... Maybe someone can chime in with some information on this . I really would like to know myself .

With our car there are no leaks or clouds of blue smoke anywhere , not to mention it passes the emission tests .

Macadoo

Sorry, I should have mentioned that it's the 3.8 L. In my opinion, a great motor. Like I said we retired the other Intrigue at 286k + miles. It was the blown coolant tube/elbow and my daughter's lack of...response that caused the overheating.
As far as where the oil is going, we have a gravel (and grass) driveway so it's hard to tell. But she went in for an oil change and the tech said it was dripping on his face.
I've been watching videos on the repair (a bunch on youtube, thankfully) and it looks do-able but a pain. My question is, do I need to buy a new upper manifold as it sounds like they ALL warp so maybe I shouldn't trust the donor car's. Can I just check for warpage on a flat surface, such as my table-saw?
BTW, I like Eric the car guy's videos. They're pretty legit.

D. Yaros

If the donor upper manifold was NOT warped when you retired the car, why would it be warped now?

illumined

So it probably is just going outside of the engine, I take it there's also no coolant in the oil? More than likely the rest of the engine is ok, although having the heads inspected might be a good idea just in case, overheating couldn't have been good for them. Are both the intake gaskets blown, or is it just one? The series 2 (which I believe the '98 Intrigue was on the list) had a major recall some time ago because they would leak oil onto the exhaust and possibly catch fire, so combining that factor with the high miles on the donor car you're probably better off putting in new metal aftermarket gaskets. Either way if you're going to fix it, fix it fast.

klm57

IMO I would buy a Dorman aftermarket intake plenum.The original GM one actually comes apart in a passageway inside!

Macadoo

I don't know for sure if it's warped but the consensus is that that was a week spot and there is an updated/beefed up version which isn't too expensive. I just stopped at my Napa (who love me because of all the $$$ I spend on the '71) and with a new upper manifold, upper gaskets, lower gaskets and all the fiddly bits, and new valve cover gaskets, it comes in just under $200. Not bad.

I've been watching the oil and the radiator but with such a rapid loss of oil, it's hard to say for sure. But neither shows any signs of cross contamination. The tech that looked at it said a compression test wouldn't do any good. I'd have to do a leak-down test which takes equipment I don't own.
Napa has the better metal/rubber gaskets. Do I put them on dry with silicone just in the corners? The tech also mentioned it's good to use the end seals instead of chucking them as they actually fit over the surface, rather than just laying on top. I've got the car parked and we're doing some shuffling until I get it fixed so no worries.

I think it's the EGR area that deteriorates and warps the plenum. New seems like peace of mind.

I figure A LOT of tape and labeling should help ease this job.

klm57

Yes,the EGR passage was the problem with the upper plenum.

cherokeepeople

the egr passage is super close to a rubber o-ring seal.it gets hot and burns out.the dorman unit has a steel pipe the slides down the hole where the egr goes to indof insulate it from the heat.when you do this job remove the spark plugs and when your done turn it over before putting the plugs back in.don't ask how i know this.you will be buying a starter.

Macadoo

Cylinders filled with antifreeze or something? Thanks for the tip.

Macadoo

All the way down to the lower intake. It has quite a bit of oil in it. Is that normal?
(That's just PB Blaster around the intake bolts).

[IMG][/IMG]

And the instructions say I have to remove the EGR pipe from the lower intake and replace it with one from the kit. But it doesn't look all that removable. Do I hafta?

oldstata

Mac I would do the lower intake gaskets as well as replacement my the upper intake plenum.

3.8 lower intake gaskets break as they are plastic/rubber some say it's the dexcool coolant

The upper plenum tend to crack / break and hydrolock the engines and break the starter nose as well

Great advise above pull plugs and free spinn the engine

Also if you haven't done it replace the coolant elbows

Macadoo

Hey Justin,
I have new (steel) elbows, lower intake gaskets, and a new upper plenum as well as all the little gizmos that go with it.
The car was losing a couple quarts of oil a week and I'm hoping this will fix it. Is the oil in the intake a sign of the leak or is it supposed to be in there?
Inspection of the oil and coolant shows no signs of cross-contamination so I'm hoping the head gaskets are good.

Macadoo

Oh, and I lost an injector pintle cap! I'm hoping it's not in the intake or combustion chamber.

oldstata

I have done a ton of these and all either loose coolant through the exhaust or go into the oil or leak externally

Oil isn't normal there, you will need to put liquid Teflon on all the lower intake bolts as well as the 3 13 mil head bolts that hold the brackets make sure you install the 3 bolts before installing
upper intake. lol don't ask me how I know

I use the right stuff black for the corner and across the rubber end seals
The egr pipe should just be one bolt holding it to the lower intake
Don't forget to unplug the temp sensor before pulling the lower intake ( wire are brittle from exhaust manifold )

oldstata

Mac I have spare parts and gaskets if you need

Macadoo

Good tips. Keep them coming. Interesting enough, it wasn't losing any coolant. Just oil. No coolant in the lower intake either. But I'm replacing the upper plenum anyway.
Thanks for the parts offer but I'm trying to get this done and out of the way.

Macadoo

I'm not following; which three bolts? If they are head bolts, I may not be removing them. I'm pulling the lower intake in the morning. I may understand what you mean once I've done that.

oldstata

One bolt is between the 1&3 injector hole the wire harness snapped on this the other is between the 4&6 injected hole and the end of cylinder 6 it holds that bracket that the egr heat guard bolted to and alt bolted to

Macadoo

Excellent. Thanks Justin.

Macadoo

I've got the lower intake off and cleaned up. A few of the bolts were loose enough that they wouldn't even make my ratchet click on the return

Do I need to swap in a new EGR tube? The instructions that came with the plenum say yes. I just don't want to collapse that thing just to discover it won't come out.

oldstata

I never do never had a problem

Macadoo

NOW you tell me :P

What about silicone on the new coolant elbows? Yeah or Nay? They do have O-rings.

oldstata

I have never used the steal replacement ones only plastic but I do lube them with the silicone spray

Macadoo

The plastics ones came apart in my hands when I fixed those last month. I used a tiny bit of petroleum jelly on the new steel and called it good.
Any tricks for getting that power steering pump back on. I've been wrestling with that for an hour!

oldstata

Lol 3" intention and deep 13 mil holding while lining it up blind it's only two bolts
Guess I have my practice in

Macadoo

I guess you do, lol. Never did get it in. I'm going to make a pin, put it in the bottom bolt hole, slide it on, and maybe get that top bolt in. Tomorrow though, not tonight.

Hey those three bolts you said need to go in before the intake? I forgot. But they went in fine, after. But the Intrigue seems to be a little different than what I'm seeing on youtube.

Thanks for all the help my friend. This job is earning me my 3.42 gears, CA bushings, and HiJacker rear shocks

oldstata

I install the top bolt in the pump, using the socket with extension and get the top one started then move to the bottom one while jiggling the pump to find the lower one if that makes any sense

The three bolts are just easier with the upper plenum off, but doable if you haven't installed the upper or the throttle body it's a good time to clean the throttle body. I use the B12 throttle cleaner from Napa works wonders

If you were local I would run over and help as the 3.8 and 3.1 are my gravy engines and to think the 455 make me nervous lol

Ps glad your work will payoff in the end

Macadoo

Oh, I thought you meant those three bolts needed to go in before the LOWER intake. Makes sense now.
I already cleaned the throttle body. It was pretty dirty and I couldn't see putting it back on that way.

If we were local we'd be working on each others' Cutlass, not my daughter's car! Lol.

oldstata

Most likely!


Hey Mac, as a maw item most 3.8 need the power steering pump removed to do the water pump. if your already there and it's not much more maybe do it while your there lol

Macadoo

That would have been smart but since I'm buying (she owes me dishes for a month) it's not going to happen, lol. It's all back together now but I forgot the EGR-to-block mount bolts, argh!
I bag and tag every bolt but that bag got shoved under something on my bench. On my way out now to see what a PIA it's going to be.

Macadoo

Well fuuuuuuuuudddge, it still leaks. But not from my repair that I can tell (lower intake). It appears to be dripping off of this connector. Is that an oil pressure sensor maybe? It looks to be going into the block just left of the oil filter. Could it just be loose? Or is it coming from somewhere higher up?
I replaced the lower and upper intakes and the valve cover gaskets.

[IMG][/IMG]

I also botched one of the coolant elbows so I have to go back in

DJS70cutlass

Yes that's your problem right there. That's the oil pressure switch and the little rubber o-ring inside it has failed. Disconnect that plug and start it up.........I'll bet there's a stream of oil coming out. Fortunately its a cheap part and is super easy to do. I've replaced hundreds of them its real common on the 3.8s. You do need a special socket to get the sensor out.

oldstata

X2 but you don't need a special tool just a 24 or 27 mil deep socket will work or a oil pressure socket there about 30 bucks on the truck do I would imagine that Sears or HF has them cheaper
Replace the sensor and all should be well
The elbows are pretty easy so that should be a quick fix

DJS70cutlass

Yup that's what I meant......like this.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...921_0006401129

Macadoo

I feel really dumb. Really really dumb. A mechanic tells me it's the lower intake, internet says it's a common problem, and I just assume that's the problem. Oh heck, maybe that was a problem too. Yeah, that's it. They were BOTH leaking, yeah. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
So, if I disconnect the plug and there is oil coming out, that's NOT supposed to happen, right?
Justin, at least I know how to bolt on the power steering pump now

oldstata

Lol!

Mac, I have done a ton of both these problems over the last 8 years don't feel bad about doing it because, most likely both needed the attention as you stated earlier the elbows fell apart when pulled. And just think you probably saved your self the cost of a starter

Macadoo

Thanks for the pep-talk Justin. I'm over the whining. I'll pull that sensor plug tomorrow and let you know what I find.