New here - questions about 1961 88 holiday

[webfoot]

I am thinking about picking up one of these cars locally, it has a pretty solid body but needs some help in the interior department.



I'm sure the aftermarket for these is probably pretty bad. Is there any interchangability with Impalas? Headliner, dashpad, package tray, etc.

Could someone point me to some information about these cars; how many 2-dr HT were made, and what are some of the differences between the standard and the "holiday" version?



Also, this car has a few things I've never seen before. What exactly does the "summer ventilation system" do? What is a "safety sentinel"?



This is the first olds I've ever looked at. I currently have a chevy and a pontiac in the stable. I would appreciate any info!

[J-(Chicago)]

that looks like monty dobson's yard in Montana

[59-59-59]

The Safety Sentinel is a pretty cool option.. you set a desired speed on the turn knob on the speedometer cluster...say 55 miles per hour..once you exceed 55mph, a buzzer goes off and scares the hell out of you. The summer ventilation is nothing more than outside air blowing at you - dont confuse this with air conditioning. The only thing that I see missing is the downdraft tube thats supposed to connect to the valve cover on the pasenger side. If this is a Super 88, than only 7,009 were built.....plus its a 2 door coupe. Buy it before I do!

[59-59-59]

Plus its got a power trunk release due to the tiny vacuum canister on the firewall

[ozoneblue]

BUY IT ! This car can only increase in value.

[Oldsmaniac]

Looks Solid!....Air cleaner is not original....some interior pieces will need restoring/custom made by an upholstery shop. A few parts may interchange with other GM cars.....its not going to be cheap as it looks like most everything will need going thru....Oldsmobiles are not cheap to restore so if its not a "labor of love" leave it alone because ya may get halfway into it and then the project will go stale. If you can do most things yourself its a plus...if not you will have more $ into it than you could sell it for.

[Oldsguy]

There is lots of potential there. Unless you are trying to restore it for competition, you can easily have an upholstery shop redo the interior, even the dash pad, but there are resources for much of that stuff.

http://www.kanter.com/

http://www.fusick.com/

[KQQLCAT]

Looks like a nice solid car for restoration. The interior parts are available at SMS interiors. http://www.smsautofabrics.com/
Good luck!
Pat

[Olds64]

You can also check out the following website for info on restoring dashpads.

http://www.justdashes.com/Index.htm

I suggest you do some reading on the early automatic transmissions available in Oldsmobiles. Unless I am mistaken this car has a Slim Jim Rotohydramatic. There have been numerous posts on this website about that transmission. If you decide to test drive the car I suggest you let it warm up and check the transmission fluid before hand.

Other than that it seems to be an awsome car. If it was near me I would jump on it like a rat on a cheeto!

[Oldsfan]

This is the same "bubble top" body that Chevy, Pontiac and Buick used. There is some interchangability - glass, weatherstripping, etc. The dash pad is '61 Olds only. You'll have to find a decent replacement (that's gonna be REAL hard), or send yours for refinishing. This is a Super 88 and used a special headliner that was made of a material called Starlight foam. This material started to deteriorate almost immediately after leaving the factory. It is not reproduced. You'll just have to re-cover the headliner boards in fabric or vinyl. There are some vinyls out there that closely replicate the original pattern in the foam (it was ribbed). Package trays will be the same as Impalas or Bonnevilles.

This is a Holiday, because it is a hardtop. Oldsmobile applied the Holiday name to all of their hardtop models. There is no "standard" model. Unless you would consider the 2-door post sedan standard, and it was only available in the Dynamic 88 line, not the Super 88.

Summer Ventilation is just a fancy name for vent controls. Alot of cars of that era (including Oldsmobiles) had vent controls that were activated by knobs/levers and bowden cables, or even just directly attached levers. Summer ventilation was part of the optional "dual-range power heater", which used vacuum actuators to control the heat and vent functions. It's a great source for vacuum leaks.

Paul

[webfoot]

Wow, thanks for all the great info everyone. And, it does have a trunk release button in the glovebox, good eye!

For parts, luckily there is a 61 4-door sitting right next to it. The holiday does have one "owie" on it on the bottom of the right rear quarter where it appears it was hit by something and then rotted.


Here's the parts car:


Floor: (is that factory paint?)



Left quarter:


Lower fender:

[Olds64]

That is a straight car! It appears to be a factory color. If you check around the door jambs and where the trunk meets the back of the car you might find some of the original paint peeking through if it was repainted; however, that looks to be an original paint job. You definitely need to jump on that like a hobo on a bologna sandwich.

[Oldsguy]

That is a very clean car, buy it!

[Starfire61]

It looks like a very restorable car. Where is it? Does it run? How much is the guy asking for it? If you post the info on the cowl tag (located under the hood in front of the driver's side of the windshield) we can tell you more about the car.

The Super 88 bubble top is considerably harder to find than its Dynamic 88 counterpart. It has the distinction of having a nicer interior, plus it came stock with the 10:1 compression, 325 HP Skyrocket engine. These are very nice cars.

The '61 Olds is notorious for frame rust, especially at the torque boxes in front of the rear wheel arches. Crud tends to build up in there & rust thru the frame from the inside out. I would check this area of the car very carefully, particularly if it's been sitting on dirt for a long time. You may also find extensive rusting in the rails under the doors, but this is more likely in a convertible due to the fully boxed-in frame. I suspect that by the time the car developed significant frame rust under the doors, the rear sections would look like Swiss cheese.

Is the trim intact? Side trim is unique to the Super 88 & very difficult to find. Rocker moldings are shared among all Super 88 bodys as well as the Starfires. It seems like there should be more of those floating around out there, but I looked for years for another set before finally paying through the nose for it. Though quite similar, the rocker moldings do not interchange with 1962.

SMS would definitely be my first choice to replicate the stock interior. They're expensive, but they are one of very few sources that are capable of duplicating the factory textures & heat stampings. You don't see many of these with correctly-restored interiors. A lot of folks cut corners here & go with one of those tuck & roll interiors with contrasting piping (like you see in every second or third car at the local cruise...) With an elaborate interior such as this, it's worth saving your cash to really do it right. It would be spectacular.

Just Dashes could do that dash easily. I recently had one done for a '62 that came out beautifully. Figure on $500-700.

There have already been some mentions of the infamous Roto-Hydramatic, or Slim-Jim trans. You can search this forum to find many posts about them. I'm of the opinion that they're probably not as bad as some folks make them out to be. I've had two rebuilt by a retired trans guy who advertises in JWO, & they shift beautifully. I'll admit that they are the weakest part of the drivetrain, & I certainly wouldn't beat the snot out of one like a TH-400, but their innate idiosyncrasies are part of the appeal of driving an Olds of this vintage. It's possible to install a different transmission, but you're looking at major & expensive surgery.

The 394 is a tough engine, but they tend to develop top end noise & blowby over time. Parts for a rebuild are available, but expensive. Should you buy this car, please don't take the cheap, easy route of replacing the Skyrocket with an SBC. Maybe, just maybe it would save you a modest amount of cash in the short term, but in the big picture you would be destroying the very thing that makes the Super 88 special. I've seen a few of these over the years with ill-advised engine swaps, & generally their values are significantly depressed compared to cars with stock drivetrains.

Let's face it- compared to a 4-4-2 or an Impala, the segment of the market that foams at the mouth over cars like this is relatively small, but it will always appreciate & place a high value on a well-restored, stock car. A Kool Kustom dude who looks at a vehicle like this as fodder for a rod will likely be very disappointed when the time comes to sell it, unless he sinks so much cash into radically altering the car that it's up there in Foose/Coddington/B-J territory. Anybody recall the thread about the hotrod '62 Super 88 wagon? The guy had over $80 grand in rodding a scarce car & did it even break $30K on Ebay? Granted, none of us are in this to make money, but those kinds of margins I'd like to avoid!

The lack of aftermarket support makes restoring a car like this a challenging & expensive proposition. You will easily exceed the car's value in your expenditures. Between dash, headliner, seats, & all the panels I think you'd get a steal if you did the whole interior to stock for under $10K...that's just the interior. Those are professional-type rates that I'd expect in the Chicago area. Doing it right is definitely a labor of love, but at the end you would have a rare & stunning automobile. When's the last time anybody saw a truly restored (not some BS resto-rod) '61 Super 88 bubble top? Good luck, & please keep us posted on your decision.

Chuck

[webfoot]

The guy wants 3K for it. I don't know if it runs or not but I would probably not fire it up because I don't know how long its been sitting. I am pretty mechanical so not too concerned about the task of getting it running again.

I did check out the frame arches you are talking about, and although they were rusty I didn't see any holes. But, only after they are sandblasted and clean can you really tell. I have learned how to do my own sheetmetal replacement on the 68 gto convertible I am currently restoring so I think I can tackle alot of minor to moderate rust issues just between me & my lincoln 180.

I was not necessarily looking for another project when I found this, but I fell in love with it instantly!

If the car is still here after today it will probably be mine. There are some guys from canada headed to the portland swap meet who are going to stop and haul some cars away. hopefully this isn't one of them. If they do, I still like the prospect of these cars:

[Olds64]

That looks like a pretty cool salvage yard.

[Centurion]

Chuck (Starfire61), your comments are spot on about this car. It is so rare to see a '61 GM bubbletop (of any make) that has not been modified, and these cars are flat-out beautiful when they're done correctly. I agree that this car is fully deserving of a careful and authentic restoration.

[rocketraider]

For $3k, the sedan needs to come with it as a parts car. You'll find with early 60s Oldsmobiles, having a spare never hurts, even if it is a different bodystyle.

KQQLCAT, Starfire61, Centurion and Oldsfan know as much about these cars as anyone currently alive on the planet, so pay attention to their advice.

I like the 61 a lot, but in all honesty I've always been afraid to tackle one simply because they're so difficult to find anything for. But a car that straight and complete would be awfully hard to pass up.

And a Datsun 2000 roadster in there too. Thought all those had gone back to elements by now.

[webfoot]

The datsun is rock solid. I didn't see any rust in the external sheetmetal but couldn't see the floors. But, it is very arid here.

The 88 is still there. The yard is closed today but I saw it.

I am going to negotiate with the guy that if I get the car that I can swap the parts off the 4dr that I need. The only rust I can find is where that right lower quarter got bashed in. But, the 4-dr has a perfect section. I even felt behind the quarters on the trunk drop-offs and there are no holes or even scale. You can see where the front bumper has a dent but the bumper on the 4 dr is straight as an arrow, or dare I say a rocket. Not even a dent in this car, not sure how that happened. BTW I looked at the door jambs and apparently the car was originally white. I really like the power blue color this apparently used to be at one point so It'll probably stay that color.

I am surprised my wife actually agreed to this since I already have a pantload of cars. Guess I'll have to keep her around a while longer.

1970 chevelle
1968 GTO convertible, factory m-21
1967 el camino (anybody want one? )

[Starfire61]

You definitely have some room to negotiate. $3K for one of these that's inoperable seems high, even if he threw in the entire 4-door for you to take. If the guy sits on the car for another 6 months his price may become more realistic. I guess it just depends how much you want it. Compared to restoration costs, a few thousand one way or another doesn't make much difference.

I also thought the color looked original. If you provide the paint codes off the cowl tag we can break them down for you.

Chuck

[webfoot]

I wont say its inoperable in the sense that it doesn't look like it would take much to get it running again. I would say "inoperable" however due to the fact that I wouldn't start it due to the fact that it has been sitting for lord knows how many years and has fuel in it that may be older than I am.

I am probably going to trade him a car for it, so it doesn't really matter what he's asking for it. I presented the idea to him and he seemed keen on the idea, actually slightly enthusiastic. I have a newer car that I don't really need since I work at home and have a pickup for a daily driver for what little driving I actually do. I would rather take in a car and keep it from suffering from the elements rather than rotting away like you so often see a la carsinbarns.com. I like cars and am not a "brand loyal" (GM) fan of any one particular line. I guess I could get a buick one day and have a fair representation of all the lines. Wildcat!!

[59-59-59]

Originally Posted by Starfire61

You definitely have some room to negotiate. $3K for one of these that's inoperable seems high, even if he threw in the entire 4-door for you to take.
Chuck

ARE YOU CRAZY????? 3K for the 2 door alone is a bargain - at least to us in the Northeast! Were used to seeing cars this vintage with no rockers, floors that disappeared, trunk sections that dont exist and bumpers that rotted away. Stop complaining about minor surface rust in the trunk and 1 dent in the car !If I had the room, I would gladly pay 3K PLUS another 1K just to get it shipped here.

[webfoot]

Seems like a good deal to me too, but I suppose its all subjective. There are a lot of restorable cars in this yard, its like walking back in time. I'm going to talk to the owner again tomorrow and hopefully it will be safe and sound in my garage this week.

[Starfire61]

I think $3K is high. The car doesn't run, has unknown mechanical issues (does the engine even turn?), & will no doubt require tens of thousands of dollars & countless hours to fully restore. I've been down this road with '61s before & I'm well aware of what whoever tackles this car is in for. I don't appreciate your cavalier comments mocking my judgement...

Chuck

[Oldsfan]

I'm behind Chuck on this one. It's a decent car, but $3K seems high to me. Maybe if it were able to be driven home I would feel differently. For $6K I bought a loaded, drivable, rust free '62 Starfire coupe. Not bragging, but this car has won 1st and 2nd place awards at OCA National meets with only so much as a wash job. It's a driver. No where near a show car. But it's decent enough to win awards. Also, it's not all that long ago that I bought a drivable '62 Starfire convertible for $4700.

We don't know the condition of the engine, so we don't know the condition of the trans, which is pretty scary in itself. We already know these transmissions are weak. We also don't know the condition of the brakes, but assume they will all have to be redone. We don't know the condition of the exhaust, but assume it will need replaced. Not to insult the car the fella wants to buy, but it is a "yard" car. And it's probably in the yard for a reason, or someone would still be driving it occaisonally.

Paul

[webfoot]

My trade is worth 2.5K max and would be much easier to get rid of like this than selling it outright.

My way of thinking is this - if I get to a point where I have put an extra 10k into the car above what I paid, the fact that I should have gotten it for 2K or 3K seems less significant to me. Plus, I can do 95% of the work myself, saving even more money. Above that, lets say I found another rust free example in New Mexico for 2K. By the time I have it hauled up here, there goes my savings!

I hope this doesn't seem like an argument, I'm just trying to get some of you folks to see it my way. If you think I'm delusional with this thinking, feel free to let me know!