Uncomfortable Topic

[Jamesbo]

Ok guys [and gals]

Since the cemetery subject was brought up in another thread, I thought it would be OK to give MHO on a subject I feel very strongly about.

We all know the 6 P’s right?

Well here’s a subject no one want to talk about, But everyday, I see people who are in a highly emotion state make poor [and costly] decisions.
.
Admittedly, death is not high on most people’s lists of conversation topics. Whether you’re under 40 or over 50, thinking about death can be uncomfortable. However, like taxes or retirement, it is wise to have a plan in place before the event.

Before developing my Green Cemetery, Milton Fields,[ miltonfieldsgeorgia.com ] I had arranged funerals for several family members. In the process, I was amazed at what I discovered about the funeral and cemetery industries. The more I learned, the more convinced I became that pre-planning is essential. None of us want our loved ones to struggle with expensive decisions during a highly emotional time.

For years, I have researched pricing at all of the major funeral homes and cemeteries in Metropolitan Atlanta. While this information is readily available, it is also very confusing. Many services are “a la carte” and are presented in ways that don’t allow purchasers to understand the total cost involved.

Several friends who have experienced a recent loss knew I owned a cemetery. Each has shared with me their shock at the hurried, stressful process and huge cost of final arrangements. Most of us turn the responsibility over to a funeral director without much thought. This can be a costly mistake. “Families will spend up to a year planning a wedding, but less than an hour planning an expensive funeral.” Immediately after the lost of a loved one is just a too stressful time to be making good decisions.

For the last several years, the price of a funeral has been increasing by an average of eight percent per year. Pre-need purchasing can therefore save your estate thousands of dollars. Beyond cost savings, natural burial provides a meaningful, ecological and beautifully simple approach to the end of life. As it pays tribute to the deceased, it also celebrates the living by preserving green space by not disturbing the lay of the land. Personally, I see no need to spend over a thousand dollars buying a reinforced concrete vault and burying it. .

You may have already made your arrangements or may have a family plot. No matter your preferences, I encourage you to make pre-need arrangements and to put your wishes in writing and let your family know. It’s just needed like a Will, a Living Will, and Health Care Directions.

End of sermon

[Oldsguy]

About five years ago my wife and I made arrangements with a cemetery which included preparation of the body (in our case, we chose cremation but not necessarily recommending that) services and a place to keep the urns. By doing this we were able to keep some of the subjectivity out of the process, and also were able to finance the purchase which this month (YAY!) is paid for.

[Jamesbo]

Good for you. A wise decision.

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

No, please fill me in

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Totally TOTALLY AGREE!!. This is a time when nothing else seems to matter and dealing with grief is the highest priority. Been through this when Dad passed away. Nothing else seemed to matter. And when the "a la carte" items and the reassurances of "Let us look after this for you" are presented, most of us will grasp those offers without any reservation. Mostly because we don't really want to deal with it right now. But its something that won't wait.....

Jamesbo, you are right on with this advice. I've been putting off updating our will, and I've got lots of info about estate planning etc that I just don't seem to put time aside to do. It's so easy to defer it to another day, or use the excuse that we don't have time to visit the lawyer. But YOU"RE RIGHT, nothing stays the same forever. On the bright side, I have already told everyone that when I kick the bucket, I want to be bured in my Cutlass. Dad didn't really expect to pass away, and everything about his estate was last minute and caused a HUGE amount of problems. I was only 19 at the time and being named the executor was not something I knew anything about. There were lots of legal and financial issues that took forever to get done. Probate isn't a big deal, its what happens after that when you get everyone else arguing about what they should get instead of having a docuement that spells it all out. Go through this once and you have a new appreciation for the word 'survivor'.

Revered Jamesbo, you just walloped one right out of the park. Keep up the good work. Should be more preachers like you around...you know...the kind that make sense and you can listen to and appreciate their words...

[cutlassgal]

I agree 100%. It is important to take care of these things. People don't understand. It is a very emotional, high stress time when someone dies, and family isn't thinking straight.
The funeral we just attended in Iowa last week for my brother-in-law was paid for by one of my other brother-in laws and was over $14,000.00! It was nice, small, but very expensive. He had no insurance, just a little SSI check every month, no plans, etc. He was only 56 years old. He was the caretaker of my mother-in-law, who we had to move to a hospice house while out there, because no one else can give her 24/7 care. What a stressful mess! Again, she has no insurance that we're aware of, so when her time comes, we will all be paying. It is important to ake care of these things!

[Jamesbo]

Cutlassgal.

Sorry to here of your loss. Please don't forget if he was a vet, He might get some financial GI help with a DD 214. When my father passed his GI insurance was the first check we got. It came amazingly fast.

We just did a funeral the other day that was less than $4,000 for EVERYTHING including Base cost for the funeral home, grave, opening and closing, casket [very simple] The only thing not included was a marker.

You just need to know what to look for and what questions to ask. Mainly because IMHO most people don't know [or want to know] anything about the subject.

[olds68]

Yea, it's uncomfortable to talk about but is really necessary.
In the past year we lost my Father-in-law, (2) close friends, and a cousin who was only three months older than me. My wife and I decided to face reality and make our own arrangements. It was simple, relaxed, fairly inexpensive and we got to choose our marker and define the services that we wanted. Now our survivors will not have to be concerned with any expenses....Except the party afterwards!

[citcapp]

Good advice Jamsbo.

My wife and I took care of this a long time ago. Small change though, Now my ashes are going to be scattered over your house, yep found it on Google Earth. Hope I don't mess up the paint jobs on any of your cars

[cutlassgal]

Thats funny, Citcapp! Thanks Jamsbo... no he wasn't a vet, but he got taken care of. I have a plot already as my mom got us all one years ago, and I have life insurance. Should be enough to take care of things. My husband asked if I want my daughter to have the Cutlass... it's like, God, NO! She wouldn't take care of it! I told him to sell it to someone who will love it and appreciate it as much as I do!! (if that's possible )

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by citcapp

Good advice Jamsbo.

My wife and I took care of this a long time ago. Small change though, Now my ashes are going to be scattered over your house, yep found it on Google Earth. Hope I don't mess up the paint jobs on any of your cars

I got a shop vac. We'll jes vac you up, put you in a bio degradable paper bag and intern you. Who should we send the bill to for the burial plot?

[Oldsguy]

Kind of related, we are all probably aware of the the old guy that was recently buried in his beloved Pontiac. Well, a friend told me his father wanted a water proof (what's the name of the concrete box the casket goes in?) thingy which cost his family much much more to do.

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

Kind of related, we are all probably aware of the the old guy that was recently buried in his beloved Pontiac. Well, a friend told me his father wanted a water proof (what's the name of the concrete box the casket goes in?) thingy which cost his family much much more to do.

The concrete Tingy is called a "Vault" and test show they are not water tight for long.

You do get a "Guarantee" however. But let's give this some thought. How many people wake up one day and say, " I think I'll check the guarantee on grand pa's vault. Let's pay a track hoe to disintern him and see if the vault leaks.?"

In the U.S. alone [on an annual basis] we bury enough reinforced concrete to build a 2 lane road from New York to Detroit.

What a vault really does is lessen the maintenance of the cemetery owner. [By lessening or slowing grave settling]

So in essence, you're paying $1,000 + to help the cemetery have lower maintenace cost after you've bought the plot.

AND When my grandfather's vault cracked, I got a notice from the cemetery to pay for the repair.

IMHO it isn't necessary. I mean what are you trying to preserve? Why?

I guess I'm just a "Dust to Dust" kind of guy and I wouldn't want to waste a perfectly good Oldsmobile by burying it with me. As much as I love them.

My instructions are to put me in a pine box, fold down the seats in my Vista and carry me up the hill.

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

.........I guess I'm just a "Dust to Dust" kind of guy and I wouldn't want to waste a perfectly good Oldsmobile by burying it with me. As much as I love them.....

Yeah, I know. It's just a figurative way of describing how much I really love my car and the sentiment/history that it's provided me throughout my life. Gonna do the cremation thing myself...have my ashes mixed with my Mrs's ashes for all eternity. I'm one of the lucky ones who found someone I can feel comfortable and secure about saying this. Probably some rule that you can't mix ashes huh? There's always a loophole. The Cutlass will go go my son if he wants it. Otherwise I'll donate it to a car museum.

[Jamesbo]

In Georgia creamation is considered the final act of disposition. So I believe your family could take your [or you wife's] ashes home and wait to mix them up when ever the second one's time came.

As you may or may not know, the Funeral home/cemetery business is now mostly controlled by giant corporations. When they buy a private funeral home, they don't change a thing [not even the wall paper. ] The design is to make you think you're dealing with the local funeral home that's been there forever [and your family has used before] when in fact you dealing with a publicly traded company that is VERY profit driven.

I had a dear friend's mom pass several years ago and her wish was to have her dog's ashes [when he passed away] be place in her cript in the mausoleum. When the dog died my friend ask me [because she was out of town] to contact the cemetery operators, open the drawer and place Snoopy's ashes next to her mom's casket.

You'd thought I was aksing them to raise the Titanic. I got the big corporate run around until my friend finally gave up. We later put them in the next cript when another family member died and didn't say a thing about it.

Here's a real horror story about Big Corporate "mistakes"

http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/24825

[citcapp]

Friends of my had her mom and dads ashes mixed with concrete and made into stones that are now in their flower garder. Their names are on the stones. Kind of cool I thought

[agtw31]

this topic reminds me of when my stepdad died back in '92.

he was a dick,treated my mom like dirt.

i went to the hospital to get his personal effects,and then went to the funeral home to arrange the cremation.

when the director brought me out the bill,he asked me how i was going to pay for it.i told him i'd be right back.

i came back in with my stepdad's wallet,and whipped out his mastercard,and said "here you go".

the funeral home guy just stood there,he was looking right at the name on the mastercard,then the bill,going back and forth
then he went and charged the funeral bill to it.

when i told my mom,she about hit the roof,but i thought it was funny.

it got paid off when his estate got settled.

[Olds64]

Jamesbo, it is interesting that you mention funeral homes are run by large corporations. When I was a Boy Scout Executive one of my ScoutMasters was a funeral home owner in KS. He was a really interesting guy and dedicated to Scouting.

The wife and I need to finish a will and provide a plan for when we pass. When my mother in law passed away a few years ago we ended up spending less than $1000 on everything. She was cremated and had veteran benefits, it was none-the-less a hard time.

[442much]

My wife sells pre-paid legal plans in Canada and the US, so we know the value of a will as it is offered free with a membership and updated (if you choose) yearly for free. They also walk your designated person through Power of Attorney duties and offer a living will. Sometimes you're not dead and people don't know what to do. Make sure you have a will and living will in place and keep it up to date, that's a biggie!

[Jamesbo]

All funeral homes are federally regulated and by law they must [if you ask for it] give you a copy of their General Price list. The VERY first thing to look at is their base price [or cost for walking in the door no matter what goods and services you choose to purchase.]

In the metro Atlanta area it varies by thousands of dollars. What this means is, you could get the EXACT same services, casket, etc and the cost from one funeral home to another could vary as much as $2,000.

To make your life simple [and make more money] most funeral homes provide you [or sell you at unbelievable cost] Flowers, Thank you notes, Visitor books, etc. In Georgia, it is against the law for a funeral home not to allow you to bring what ever you need [even a casket you can buy from COSTCO]

Think I’m kidding?

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=casket&N=0&Ntt= casket&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US


You do not need to be embalmed. In fact there was no embalming until the Civil War. Mortician Schools were first opened by chemical companies that made formaldehyde [a known carcinogen] to preserve bodies of Union Officers traveling north]. Lincoln was probably the most famous early person to be embalmed when he made his last train ride.

IMHO embalming is an invasive procedure and totally unnecessary. BTW the Jewish community agrees with me.

Most funeral homes have refrigeration units. That’s all you need. You’ll look “Cool” at the viewing.

[Jamesbo]

ColdWar yo're right on point.

I didn't mean to be misleading. I was refering to U.S relatively modern day [1860's] embalbing methods [as oppossed to mummification ] I was trying to make a point. I believe there is a notion in the U.S. that vaults and embalbing are required by law and they are not and IMHO a waste of money.

You may have heard of Dr. Vlass at the University of Tennessee Forensic Research Center [a.k.a BodyFarm] For decades he has done extensive research about decompositon that has been used by the F.B.I. and others to locate the victims of foul play.

http://web.utk.edu/~fac/

I beleive this is the correct information concerning Catholic creamation.

Decades ago, the Vatican banned cremation, but in 1963 the ban was lifted, but the cremains could not be present at a funeral mass. This option could only be chosen if the deceased denied the teachings on the resurrection of the body. However, in 1997 the Vatican decided that the cremains can be present at mass and are to be treated with the same respect and reverence as in a casket burial. To this day, the scattering of ashes is still unacceptable.

Cremation is also not acceptable in the Jewish Community.

[Jamesbo]

In my own family, the funeral directors took huge advantage of the grief of the decision making survivors, who had gone to pieces, and sold them way, way up on services and options.

CW

Thanks for your insightful replies. I'm glad your cereal box still has plenty of Wheaties left.

I guess my whole point is times have changed. With the corporate takeover of what once was mostly family owned funeral homes, the old "Greed Ball" has raised it ugly head and IMHO many families are over sold goods and services at a time of grief [and in some cases guilt]

Since you mentioned the Coptic Church. I have never been to one of their services but a local [privately owned] funeral director told me that once a year, an official from the local Coptic Church made a contractual agreement with their funeral home and negotiated price and services. So ever member of the church knew in advance what services, casket etc they would get and what it would cost.

On more than one occassion I have met with the representative of the local Sapharic Jewish synagogue who is in charge of handling the affairs of memebers of his synagogue who have passed away. He has litterly stepped in at the time of need and taken over things for a grieving family hundreds of times. He knows what he's doing and it's helpful.

I think those are two excellent alternatives to the way we "Goys" handle things. And I would guess that's why I'm on this soap box.

How you want to handle things is a very personal and private matter. It's is entirely up to the individual or his/her survivor. I just wish more people would face the completion of life as part of it and prepare so they don't place them selves in a situation that often proves to be a series of costly mistakes or being taken advantage of.

[agtw31]

funerals are overrated

[Jamesbo]

I know a few of us get the AARP bulletin monthly. This months article titled "The High Cost of Dying" outlined pretty much what I said above.Check your prices and pre-plan please.

FYI, I do not agree with their stance on health care reform. I just read the bulletin.

[Oldsguy]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

I know a few of us get the AARP bulletin monthly. This months article titled "The High Cost of Dying" outlined pretty much what I said above.Check your prices and pre-plan please.

FYI, I do not agree with their stance on health care reform. I just read the bulletin.

I kinda thought so.

[Rdrokit]

I want to be late to my funeral.

But on a serious note, preplanning is essential. As a commander and service office of the local VFW post I get to work with all the widows of veterans in our area..
I can not believe how unorganized some of their paperwork is. Right now I have a member on a respirator keeping him alive...there is nothing in his paperwork about resuscitate or no resuscitate and he never talked to his spouse about it. Many of the vets were married before and when I try to get pensions for their current spouses there is no paperwork of divorce from their first wife. Almost none of them have a will. It makes it very hard on the living if your paperwork is not in order. So as the Boy Scouts say, "Be Prepared".

[Jamesbo]

I don't want to keep pounding away on this subject becasue I am well aware that it's not a hot topic on this forum. However, This AARP artcile could easily save you thousands of dollars.

Nuff Said.
http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourmoney/p...costdy_ng.html

[Oldsguy]

I just wrote a check for the last payment this morning. Now I can die and that's one less thing for the kids to worry about.

[wolfman98]

When my dad passed away last year his funeral arrangements had already been made and paid for. It is definately the way to go cause you just have to make one call to the funeral home and they take care of the prearrangements.My dad was cremated and he had his service at the legion , he spent 33 years in the Canadian Armed Forces and spent a lot of time at the legion playing cards with a lot of other retired forces buddies. My mother who is now 81 also has her arrangements made and her will all set. Should she become incapcitated I have power of attorney to handle any or all affairs.She will also be cremated when the time comes in maybe 20 years
A little off topic sort of .... did you know jamesbo that bodies today take less embalming fluid than say 100 years ago because we are filling ourselves full of preservatives. I heard that the other day on a science program and was wondering how true this may be?

[Jamesbo]

No, I've never heard that.

I have read that on an annual basis in the U.S. we bury more than 800,000 gallons of Formaldehyde [a known carcinogen] enough metal to build the Golden Gate Bridge, and enough reinforced concrete to build a two lane road fromNew York to Detroit.

[Destructor]

I began designing myself a moseleum, it will be constructed of cut granite slabs backed by concrete block. The roof will be two sloped slabs with a granite cap running the lenth of the peak. The interior is to be lined with marble, though I haven't fully decided on the interior yet. There will also be a stained glass window at the back wall. If I could build it on my property I'd use it as a shed until I die. I also intend to set up a cot in it (wherever it is built) and occationally spend the night there, a good refuge if I get into a spat with the girlfreind/wife.

"He was always fond of that moseleum, put him in it."

[Olds64]

I have read that on an annual basis in the U.S. we bury more than 800,000 gallons of Formaldehyde [a known carcinogen] enough metal to build the Golden Gate Bridge, and enough reinforced concrete to build a two lane road fromNew York to Detroit.

That is interesting. If we think the ancient Egyptians were obsessed with the dead just think what historians are going to think of Americans thousands of years from now?

[Redog]

Yes not a fun toipc to talk about, esp at the age of 32.

I do already have a cemtery plot thou.

Sadly my dad passed away, it will be 3 years on Jan 5 2010. My mom bought a family plot which holds 6 coffins and 2 creamations, so at the very least I have that.

My grandfather passed in July 2004, they already had the plot, but it cost my grandmom $1000 to open it which I don't think is a big deal.

The undertaker in that case stumbled when he said $1000, and said $100,000

[Destructor]

They will charge the same 1,000 to hand shovel a small hole to place ashes in a plot. Ripoff.

[Jamesbo]

We charge $900 to open, close set up and take down tents chair. We sub it out to a company. We charge $100 to open and close for ashes and $225 if they want tent and chairs for a service burying ashes.

[Jamesbo]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...tm?csp=usat.me

[Olds64]

Interesting article Jamesbo. Wal-Mart sells pretty much anything.

[cutlassgal]

I heard about that yesterday on the radio! The company I previously worked at was bought by a man and his son back in 2002. Brian, the son, was diagnosed with lukemia in 2003, and put up a helluva battle, but it got him in 2006 right before my mom passed away. He was only 32. But, being as he was a "businessman", his dad an accountant, and they owned several small thriving companies, he wanted all his affairs to be in order so his wife wouldn't have to deal with banks, lawyers, auditors, etc... so he made all his arrangements before hand while he was able; he had accepted the fact that he was dying, and dealt with it like it was just another business arrangement! I really had to admire him for that. He took a family picture of him, his wife, and 3 daughters that had been taken in Disneyland on vacation the previous summer, and wrote his own little saying, and had those printed as the cards that you get at the funeral home, and God bless him, He bought his casket before hand ON E-BAY!!!!! He loved E-bay!!! We all smiled at that one when we attended his funeral! It was just as he wanted!!