Economy

[Kennybill]

Hello All, I work in a large Steel Mill and we went from "balls to the wall" to no orders in Oct. We had a planned shut down to reline the Blast Furnace then the economy tanked so they are not going to fire it up till orders pick up. The local GM plant (Lordstown,Ohio) is down to one shift. (Cobalt) I will be laid off in a week or so when we finish repairing. I am going take advanage of the down time working on my Daughther's house, my house and maybe even my Oldsmobiles. Weather sucks in N.E. Ohio right now though. Lot of people are hurting around here. My Nephew is a Tool & Die guy and he is out of work. How's things in the rest of Oldsmobile Land? Rocket on, Ken

[Jokers69]

Was working 50 hrs in a plastic injection molding house, after our 2 week layoff for xmas, (it's always been just 1/2 day xmas-eve and all day xmas plus new years day) we're now working 24 hour weeks. that's right, Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday 8 hours, then Thursday-Friday-Saturday-Sunday off, projected through at least the whole of February..

Just last year we were running 24 hours a day 7 days a week... the economy collapsed like a house of cards. Greed, indifference and political correctness in lending took a big toll. There's a reason banks didn't lend to people with marginal jobs and marginal credit, but then the Govt said everyone should get loans, even those who didn't qualify.

[Lady72nRob71]

Hi Ken,

Sorry to hear the bad news... It seems like all industries are taking a beating these days. My company just canned 3400 people, but at least about half were voluntary early retirements.
I was lucky (this time) and was retained.

It is nice to hear your positive outlook, despite the layoff. Like you mentioned, DO take advantage of the time off and do what you can in big projects, especially time consuming, lower dollar ones. Of course the weather is against you up there. (I do not even want to know what your heating bills look like! )

Hopefully you have some good money in savings, to keep all your projects rolling along and your family fed and warm.
Maybe the economy will start pulling out of the mud soon; that is where my 401k is right now...
Best along and keep the faith!

[Lady72nRob71]

Originally Posted by Jokers69

There's a reason banks didn't lend to people with marginal jobs and marginal credit, but then the Govt said everyone should get loans, even those who didn't qualify.

How wrong that was indeed and here is when we all pay for it...
Geez...
Best of luck to you and EVERYONE here suffering as a result of this mess - my prayers go out to you...

Hopefully it will just mean a time to rest, plan for the future, and complete cheaper and more time consuming projects, weather permitting.
We must all try to get the most out of a bad situation and hopefully, no Olds's will need to be sold as a result.
Lets keep our heads high and temporarily adapt, as it should improve (but may take a while though...)

[Bluevista]

I know what you mean being in the same general Oldsmobile land Ken. How's the snow out there today? I'm glad I got my old Simplyshity tractor and snowblower going in the fall, it's a riot using it. I would be out bumper hitching back in the day.
My wife works at Progressive Insurance (30 years) and yesterday they announced no or very small raises and some people have to take pay cuts. Last year at this time they fired thousands so she's just glad to still have a job.
The residential remodeling and restoration work has really slowed to a crawl or nothing, people are cancelling contracts. I'll do just about anything but even that isn't there. The under the table discounts-for-cash jobs will be about the only jobs out there if anything.
I sell vintage toys and and anything else I think I can make a buck off of on evilbay so I dig into my inventory/collection and make some bucks that way. My stock is running low and I do keep busy replenishing it but it's getting real hard to find.
I work on the house too, drywalls cheap so I've been doing some walls and ceilings. It's easier than trying to fix or strip wallpaper off the old stuff and taping can be very meditating. Maybe I'll do my roof this summer if things don't pick up, shingles are relatively cheap too. It will probably be okay for another 5-10 years but I'm not getting any younger and want to do as much as I can before I can't.
I'm not allowed to lift over 50 pounds since neck surgery a few years back, yeah right.
My dad was a depression kid and taught me to never take anything for granted so I keep it real, that guy can pinch a penny and make Lincoln scream.
The Olds may be in primer for a long time the way things are looking but at least I have it.

The pickens are getting real slim.

[citcapp]

Slow here in the Northwest as well. I am a estimator and designer for a medium size electrical contracting firm in Seattle, WA. The housing market has taken a toll on everything here. Almost no new construction commerical or residential and very little tenant improvement. Don't see any improvement for at least 6-10 months down the road. In fact things will continue to get worse for a while. Time to save, save, save, build up the savings to weather the bad times just like my dad taught me. I still plan to work on my cars, just will take longer to complete because I buy parts only when I find a good deal. Hope all goes well for the rest of you guys out there.

[Oldsguy]

No, we are supposed to spend, spend, spend, if you follow the lead of our government.

[gearheads78]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

No, we are supposed borrow borrow borrow, print print print and spend, spend, spend, if you follow the lead of our government.

Fixed it for you

[citcapp]

Hear what your are saying Richard, when inflation kicks in we will need a bushel basket of dollars to buy a loaf of bread. The Stimulas package will see to that.

Oh and congrats on becoming a mod your help will be appreciated by all.

[dan2286]

Kennybill, are you talking about the Lorain steel plant? I could have sworn that they were pretty much doing the exact same thing, shutting it down and getting some needed maintenance done.

[csstrux]

hold on to yer britches boys...it's going to be a rough couple of years at least. any more said would be pushing the political tolerance of the board I think.

[Olds64]

My wife and I are blessed to be living in Lawton, OK. We both work for government contractors and both of our companies are still hiring. Plus, the companies just signed a 2 year contract that guarantees our jobs until 2010. The local Army base, Fort Sill, is going to add an additional 10,000 Air Defense troops this year. That is only going to boost the local economy. In addition, another contractor, BAE, is building a facility in nearby Elgin, OK which will be designing and testing non-line of sight artillery pieces.

[wolfman98]

I ended up getting hit in the head one too many times and am on insurance. covers 70% but that's better than getting kicked in the balls with a frozen mukluk. It will only last for 2 1/2 years and then the company will probably turf me. Going to be hard to find work when your 51 (now almost ) and partly disabled. Those manifols I took off... driver's side is X384785 but the one on the passenger side is 398708K and above that is 355. Anybody out there know if that sounds right? It was single exhaust and I wanted to change to duels but the trans. linkage has big half circle shape , could it have been changed from 2 to 1 before?

[Bluevista]

Things are looking up. My daughter who moved to North Carolina last fall is a licensed dental assistant and finally found a job and called with the news today, taking her licensing NC exams tomorrow.
My younger daughter was accepted to one of the colleges she applied to today, they actually called to tell her, should have seen her face when she was on the phone.
She wants to run Disney someday and knowing her she will, may be good for a free pass at least.

[Dapapadon]

I'm in the the Pacific NW, Portland Oregon area and I work for a small paper mill. The booming economy was killing us. Energy prices were through the roof, China was buying up scrap paper and chemical costs were way up. The company burned through about 17 million in reserves in 6 months. So in July we had to take a 15% pay cut or face mill closure. Things are or were looking better. In Dec. we got 5% back and as of Jan. 1 we're back to precut wages plus a 2% raise we missed. Sounds good but now we're facing customers having problems or worse. So I'd say I have no real idea what the near term future holds. Right now we look Ok, but that could change tomorrow.

Several of the guys in my shop have kids in their 20's and 30's and several are facing job and finance problems. Plus I know things are tough for my kids in the SF bay area.

Kennybill, my brother works for a newly aquired division of Nucor Steel in Indiana. He worked for the company that was aquired. Anyway he says things are really slow but Nucor folks say they plan to keep everyone through the slow period. He's taking a wait, save & see additude about it.

I left Indiana in early 1981 due to the bad economy there at that time. Basically I had a job but couldn't move up because there was no turnover. And couldn't get another, better paying job because there were not any. We moved to Texas where things were booming. But on visits back home in the early 80's I saw guys I grew up with, hard working guys I'd worked with staying home taking care of the kids while the wife's work. There just weren't any jobs. I bring this up because I see this current downturn maybe being that bad on a national scale. But let's hope not!

My current plan is to work the overtime that I can and build up my savings. And hope things start looking better for everyone!

Don

[Jamesbo]

I can't say anything here that wouldn't break the politics rule. So I shall "endeavor to persevere" and bite my lip.

[Kennybill]

I work at a steel mill that has had different owners over the years. We call it the "little" steel mill that won't die. The mill has been there over 100 years. It has one blast furnace built in 1939, it was the biggest at that time, still pretty good size. BOF shop, (basic oxygen funace x 2) twin stran caster, 56" hot stip mill (heats hot slab steel into coils) finishing mills. when I started there were 8000 people, now 1200 man it all. It was Republic steel, then LTV, then WCI steel. The Russians just bought it last year, now it is Severstall. I can retire but I plan on working 5 more years. Being from the "old school" I was always careful with money. I don't believe in making the " money-men" rich paying interest. I usually use a different term for them than "money-men." Me bad!! My "Kids" are grown, My Son is 32 and a teacher in N.C., my Daughter (the Lawyer married to a Lawyer) is 29, one GrandSon. I basicly work to help out my Kids. If I retired I wouldn't have the xtra $ to help them out. I'm big on education (because I never had the opportunity.) I feel I was succesfull in life because I put my Kids thru college and they turned out great. Now my goal is to put any Grand-kids thru. I alway tell the young Guys at work about not going into debt but they never listen I've always been down on banking, ya, I know they come in handy now and then. They are like "drug dealers," they gave out credit, got people hooked till they could only pay the interest, then raised the rates for even more profit. Hmmmm, I better stop here, I am getting to political. I just hope things pick up for the younger Families so they don't lose more homes. Money problems are the leading cause of divorce. I joke (but true) with my Daughter that as long as people get married and drink Her and my Son-in-law will make money. Good Luck to All, Ken

[wolfman98]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

I can't say anything here that wouldn't break the politics rule. So I shall "endeavor to persevere" and bite my lip.

yeah I guess politics and the economy are intertwined and downturns are inevitable every few years. The world is a changing and with the talk of converting over to "GREEN" energy I wonder how long I will enjoy cruising in my 69-98 convertible. I drive a 1990 Astro van with a 4.3 liter V6 and my 455 gets better fuel mileage on the highway , as long as I am not having too much fun.

[csstrux]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

I can't say anything here that wouldn't break the politics rule. So I shall "endeavor to persevere" and bite my lip.

AMEN

[rocwal]

I only think that i'm lucky to be a retired person ,but do know this situation and feel sorry for lots of people in the USA ,been there and done it . I dont have money but watch the market each day only to see which day of month is lowest price for heating oil ,found that around the 23 to 25 th is that time for me anyways ,I have done this for years. my wife works at a garden center and gets time off each year ,one son works for a computer company that services ATM machines and works 60 to 70 hours a week ,and travels 1500 to 2000 miles each week ,here in Maine that is'nt hard to do. But guess who is using them? anyone with a few bucks stashed away or running up some debt . Lets just keep on praying that light is around the corner ,cause its getting damn dark for some people.

rocwal
Dan B

[Olds64]

Lets just keep on praying that light is around the corner ,cause its getting damn dark for some people.

Amen to that. Hopefully the economy turns up sooner than expected.

[daves62]

The Union Pacific is using the low traffic of trains to do some well over do maintenance. Next year will be the real test for us.Ive been stuffing the savings account paying off as many bills as I can. Not much fun but neither are calls from debt collectors. I hope the economy turns up soon for everyone.

[68conv455]

Hang in there brothers. Stay positive, live modestly, don't take chances, and remember there is nothing more important than health and family.

[citcapp]

Times are tough but this too will pass. I am of the age to remember other times when scrambleing to make a buck was the order of the day. Made us stronger and we learned how to save, stock the freezer, buy food in case goods, not go out to dinner instead have dinner with good friends then play cards or board games afterwards. This makes for closer bonds. Learn to barter your skills with people you know trade building a deck for the plumbing work you need. Its amazing what a person can do when they put their mind and energy to a task. The bartering skills can also work with car parts

[Redog]

I'm actully having the exact oppiste problem, it's crazy.

All of 2006 and 2007 we were dying, no OT, no nothing, 2008 picked up, but so far in 2009 I'm making a killing. I've been working about 80 hours a week and grossed in Janurary what I would make with no OT in 3 months

Sunday's are doubletime and I didn't work the Sunday before MLK day, but I worked on MLK day which is triple time. THis Sunday I'm not working at all.

I hate to say it, but I did already have my bad time with my job.

The Superbowl is considered a holiday at Pepsi, just due to the sales volume. I'm hoping Febuary says steady, I don't need 35 hours of OT a week, but 12 would be nice

[wolfman98]

Originally Posted by Redog

I'm actully having the exact oppiste problem, it's crazy.

All of 2006 and 2007 we were dying, no OT, no nothing, 2008 picked up, but so far in 2009 I'm making a killing. I've been working about 80 hours a week and grossed in Janurary what I would make with no OT in 3 months

Sunday's are doubletime and I didn't work the Sunday before MLK day, but I worked on MLK day which is triple time. THis Sunday I'm not working at all.

I hate to say it, but I did already have my bad time with my job.

The Superbowl is considered a holiday at Pepsi, just due to the sales volume. I'm hoping Febuary says steady, I don't need 35 hours of OT a week, but 12 would be nice

Maybe you should invest all that extra cash in the market , in a couple of years you could feel more like part of the majority

[csstrux]

I am probably pushing the line here, but have any of you been listening to what is in the "stimulus package". I'll keep most of my opinions to myself, but will say this. From the little that I heard about, I have already called my representatives and told them That I did not want it, or the cars for clunkers program passed. That I am watching, and I do vote. I would suggest that all who can, inform themselves as best they can, and call your representatives as soon as they can, and stay on them. There are workable programs that are being put together, so I am told, that don't involve billions in pork that will (should) actually put the common man back to work, without going back down roads that didn't work in the past and required a world war to get out of. I am sorry if I overstepped, I tried to keep this plain vanilla, but do feel this is important and will affect our common hobby as well as our kids futures.

[Bluevista]

Originally Posted by citcapp

Times are tough but this too will pass. I am of the age to remember other times when scrambleing to make a buck was the order of the day. Made us stronger and we learned how to save, stock the freezer, buy food in case goods, not go out to dinner instead have dinner with good friends then play cards or board games afterwards. This makes for closer bonds. Learn to barter your skills with people you know trade building a deck for the plumbing work you need. Its amazing what a person can do when they put their mind and energy to a task. The bartering skills can also work with car parts

That's the name of the game. I never ate in a restaraunt until I was older, maybe McDonalds once every few months if we were lucky when we were kids. I have three brothers and three sister and we all survived. It was the all night penny poker games at our house and my mom loved Scrabble. We regularly trade work for goods or services. It may look like you make nothing on paper but isnt that the point? I've gotten everything from cars to dental work that way. I was approved to go on social security disability if I want right now because of neck problems but I'll work until I drop, carpenters don't retire. I figure I save the government lots more than I could ever make under the table.

[Olds64]

have any of you been listening to what is in the "stimulus package"

I have heard alot of positive and negative about the stimulus package. One thing is for sure, this stimulus should be better than the one that gave golden parachutes and $18 billion incentive packages to Wall Street CEOs.

[Kennybill]

How about the CEO of Merril Lynch's $35,000 toilet. I always knew they were full of ----, never mind.

[Olds64]

If I were a CEO I would make sure every bathroom I used had a $35,000 toilet and a $50,000 b'day (sp.). That would be cool.

[wolfman98]

Originally Posted by csstrux

I am probably pushing the line here, but have any of you been listening to what is in the "stimulus package". I'll keep most of my opinions to myself, but will say this. From the little that I heard about, I have already called my representatives and told them That I did not want it, or the cars for clunkers program passed. That I am watching, and I do vote. I would suggest that all who can, inform themselves as best they can, and call your representatives as soon as they can, and stay on them. There are workable programs that are being put together, so I am told, that don't involve billions in pork that will (should) actually put the common man back to work, without going back down roads that didn't work in the past and required a world war to get out of. I am sorry if I overstepped, I tried to keep this plain vanilla, but do feel this is important and will affect our common hobby as well as our kids futures.

As a Canadian who has an American born mother ( Tacoma , Washington) I do have some ties to the U.S. and know that what is good for the American ecomomy is good for Canada because we are each other's largest trading partners.My oldest brother lives in Sun City , California (lucky bugger) and is a high school principal and math teacher.The N.A.F.T.A. agreement pee'd me off because of some of the inclusions made to Mexico , who I don't think we can trade fairly with due to their low standard of living. Look at all of the buisneses who border the U.S. & Mexico line so they can file in Mexican workers in through the back door and pay cheap wages. good for them but taking jobs from Americans.They will defend that by saying that they can't afford to hire Americans because of the pricetag. BULL , it is always about profit and how much return they can get back to their shareholders ie. Wallstreet who shot themselves in the foot and now want Americans to donate one of their own each.2008 Wallstreet and Bank bonus's totaling 18.4 billion dollars should tell everyone what they are about $$$$$$$.The average Canadian pays one of the highest tax rates in the world and we had a surplus of billions in our Unemployment fund. Instead of helping out the people they give big buisness and oil companies 50 billion in tax breaks. Like they really need it. Now I got both feet over the line so I will get to my point. Obama wants to put limits on purchasing materials from U.S. companies which I know sounds like a good idea but there are some things provided by canada now already up and running. Delays will hurt the recovery for both countries ( purposely excluding Mexico for reasons already stated ). We have more American based large buisness here than Canadian plus Multiple resources for energy yet untapped. Both governments need to work together to benefit both countries.We have been like brothers in both war and peace for the common cause , freedom and a good living standard for all who partcipate within that cause. The 350 billion yet unspent needs to go to the common family that is losing their dream because of others greed , why could they not set up a Fedral bank to take over the bad mortgages and renegotiate fair values. Republicans will call this socialism but if it is set up as a temporary measure until the economy recovers people and small buisness might have somewhere to go to get their lives back up and running. The economy will follow and so will the other banks cause then they will have to start loaning out that first lump of cash or die. To the administers I profoundly apologize for talking politics but I had to get it off my chest. It will affect us all in one way or another ( freinds , family and neighbors ).If we all have a common voice and express or concerns to our elected REPRESENTATIVES just maybe they will hear. Again I apologize.

[Lady72nRob71]

Originally Posted by Kennybill

How about the CEO of Merril Lynch's $35,000 toilet. I always knew they were full of ----, never mind.

WOW!
That is one royal flusher for sure!

- Heck, that reminds me of a plumbing truck I saw long ago from "Royal Flush Plumbing"...
Under their name and phone number, it said "Call now - your sh!t is our bread 'n' butter".
Sick...

[csstrux]

Wolfman

I agree with you as far as Mexico goes, there are problems with any man made system, and I never heard about the Merrill toidy seat. The protectionist policies that I am hearing about, as I understand them will put us in a tariff war with our trading partners though. By raising the price on their products artificially. Our economy has historically heated up in direct relation to taxation and regulation, or the lack thereof. I am an independent owner operator. (I drive a truck that happens to have my name on it) I have been in business since 2004 and went independent in 05, so am fairly new to the game and admittidley have a lot to learn, but am still standing while 5000 of my brethren have fallen in the last 12 months. That's 13.7 trucking companies closing their doors every day including weekends and holidays. we are one of the most highly taxed and regulated industries in the nation to the best of my knowledge. I have no problem competing against Canadian carriers. If the Mexican carriers were held to the same standards, and had to pay the same fee's in complying with the regs that are in place, I would not have a problem there. But I can tell you from first hand experience the government has completely fouled up the whole program. From what I have seen in the brief time that I have been paying attention, the people best equipped to dig us out of this problem are the people who know how to produce profits, be that making widgets, growing produce, building houses, selling them, or driving a truck. Profits are not evil. Profits are what keep staff employed when times are slow, or in my case what has kept me in business, a roof over my kids heads, and food in their bellies to this point. Those profits came from hard, dedicated work, and sacrifice on my part. Discipline in spending on my wife's part. I understand frustration when we hear about gross excess like the crapper seat, but my company can (could) do in gross sales near enough to put me into the "rich" category...until you look at what it cost to run my buisness. The definition of rich is a sliding scale any way. We as a people need to rise up and do what we do to the best of of our abilities, without class warfare. the government has and will only get in the way. This is what scares me... why if we are trying to jump start an economy, are we making income distinctions, or worrying about trying to punish a segment of our population. Especially the ones most capable of getting things going again. If you bite the hand that feeds you... it will stop feeding you. My business depends on people who build cars, machinery, and houses. I for one am not about to bite that hand, because as long as they do well, and I continue to give good safe reliable service, for a competitive price, sometimes even a less than competitive price. I will do well, and may someday even become one of the "evil" rich people myself... with persistence, and discipline. We don't need any "help" form uncle Sam, what we need is relief from him. Hopefully I kept this non partisan, this is what I truly believe. I know there is gross excess, on both sides of the fence so every one, or no one is to blame. Next election season I will likely be voting third party because one failed us, and the other is betraying us. We are the power, you, me, and any other man or woman on the street. Not the government, They are supposed to represent your interests, and concerns, not the other way around. We (our ancestors) made America great, not the government. They never could, and never will.

[wolfman98]

Originally Posted by csstrux

Wolfman

I agree with you as far as Mexico goes, there are problems with any man made system, and I never heard about the Merrill toidy seat. The protectionist policies that I am hearing about, as I understand them will put us in a tariff war with our trading partners though. By raising the price on their products artificially. Our economy has historically heated up in direct relation to taxation and regulation, or the lack thereof. I am an independent owner operator. (I drive a truck that happens to have my name on it) I have been in business since 2004 and went independent in 05, so am fairly new to the game and admittidley have a lot to learn, but am still standing while 5000 of my brethren have fallen in the last 12 months. That's 13.7 trucking companies closing their doors every day including weekends and holidays. we are one of the most highly taxed and regulated industries in the nation to the best of my knowledge. I have no problem competing against Canadian carriers. If the Mexican carriers were held to the same standards, and had to pay the same fee's in complying with the regs that are in place, I would not have a problem there. But I can tell you from first hand experience the government has completely fouled up the whole program. From what I have seen in the brief time that I have been paying attention, the people best equipped to dig us out of this problem are the people who know how to produce profits, be that making widgets, growing produce, building houses, selling them, or driving a truck. Profits are not evil. Profits are what keep staff employed when times are slow, or in my case what has kept me in business, a roof over my kids heads, and food in their bellies to this point. Those profits came from hard, dedicated work, and sacrifice on my part. Discipline in spending on my wife's part. I understand frustration when we hear about gross excess like the crapper seat, but my company can (could) do in gross sales near enough to put me into the "rich" category...until you look at what it cost to run my buisness. The definition of rich is a sliding scale any way. We as a people need to rise up and do what we do to the best of of our abilities, without class warfare. the government has and will only get in the way. This is what scares me... why if we are trying to jump start an economy, are we making income distinctions, or worrying about trying to punish a segment of our population. Especially the ones most capable of getting things going again. If you bite the hand that feeds you... it will stop feeding you. My business depends on people who build cars, machinery, and houses. I for one am not about to bite that hand, because as long as they do well, and I continue to give good safe reliable service, for a competitive price, sometimes even a less than competitive price. I will do well, and may someday even become one of the "evil" rich people myself... with persistence, and discipline. We don't need any "help" form uncle Sam, what we need is relief from him. Hopefully I kept this non partisan, this is what I truly believe. I know there is gross excess, on both sides of the fence so every one, or no one is to blame. Next election season I will likely be voting third party because one failed us, and the other is betraying us. We are the power, you, me, and any other man or woman on the street. Not the government, They are supposed to represent your interests, and concerns, not the other way around. We (our ancestors) made America great, not the government. They never could, and never will.

I would never bite the hand that feeds me but I might bite the one who starves me. 350 billion went out without conditions to banks and mortgage firms to help them unfreeze lending. has anybody heard where that money went. This time there has to be strings or it will end up in the same big pit.

[csstrux]

I agree completely, but would have never given out the money to begin with, the markets back up that opinion, I forget the exact numbers, but they dropped the very day that money was given out, and continue to tank to this day. I would say that is a pretty good indicator that the government is not the answer to our problems but are in fact the problem. But this is coming from a bitter angry tired knuckle dragging diesel dummy.

[Jamesbo]

The Pork is still going strong. Gore wants 600 mil to study Global Warming and up grade tracking stations. Does this mean that the tracking stations that says Global Warming even exist are faulty? Or does he just want to cash in for his global warmning companies.

OOOOOOOOOOOOPS I amy have broken a rule. But politics makes me want to puke.

[442much]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

"endeavor to persevere"

And after you think about it for awhile....who will you declare war on?

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by 442much

And after you think about it for awhile....who will you declare war on?

If I may be allowed to add one more quote from the movie "The Outlaw Jossie Wales"

"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

Which is what politicos are do'in right now to the publlic. If we scare the shyt out of them, they'll let us do anything we want in the name of helping out the economy.

[citcapp]

Term limits, four years max. This will put a dent in Pork. No Lobby monies used to elect. another dent in pork. Vote the dummies out, less pork.