ziff396

I am taking my 72 Cutlass in for an alignment later this morning and was curious what the specs should be with radial tires. 255/60/15. I already have the factory specs printed out from my service manual. I did a search and didn't find much.
Thanks

oldcutlass

I would keep the toe-in around 1/16 - 1/8". Also have them try and get as much caster as they can, stock control arms usually around 3 and most tubulars can get up to 7. Cross caster +.05 higher on passenger side. Camber I always try to get 0.

Toe-In 1/16 - 1/8"
Caster up to 3 deg pos caster stock A arms, up to 7 with tubular
Camber 0
Cross Caster +1/2 degree on passenger side.

ziff396

Thanks! I searched caster and found quite a bit. I think I'll have them shoot for the +3 on the caster.

oldcutlass

The caster/ camber adjustment is a pain in the butt on the older cars, all done with shims. Hopefully your alignment guy is as patient and **** retentive as mine.

ziff396

I know that a lot of guys in the area go to this person for their older cars. Say's he has all the shims and everything else needed. I guess I'll find out in about 1/2 hour.

oldcutlass

Post your final settings so the others can reference them. Good luck!

ziff396

Well, he wasn't. When I went in, he agreed about the spec's I gave him. Once he was done, he ended up with -1 on the caster. Everything else was fine. 1/16 toe in , 1/2 degree difference on the camber. He said (and I argued), that he could not set the caster like that without tire wear as the tire would be tilted. We went on and on and of course he has 34 years doing this. Right back to spec. He did not understand saying that the factory specs you can throw out the door. He also said that there is no way to possibly get 2-3 degrees castor. ??????????????? Anyways, it is 100% better than it was before taking it in. I did it with a tape 4 years ago, and it had no shims in it when I got it. I guess for $54.95 overall, it was not bad.
It's way better than before, but I might also check around and have it redone.

oldstata

The problem is the new equipment tells you if it's in or not ! With this said its up to the tech to make sure that's all of them work togeather. I have seen tech say its in the green good for me .
If you have it redone I would talk to several shops and explain you are looking for best performance and you want your specs exactly where you want.
My shop charges alittle extra for this but on some I have spent all day getting them in


Edit : not positive if there the same but castor specs on a 72 cutlass supream on a 2012 hunter list ( -.5 - -2.5 )

oldcutlass

The caster spec on these old cars was neg to reduce the amount of effort to turn. Positive caster helps the steering return to center and gives some road feel. Caster has no effect on tire tilt, that's camber. Camber on a street car needs to be the same on both tires.

Alignment Terms
Ackerman Effect: Also called toe-out on turns, this occurs when the steering angle of the inside tire is greater than that of the outside tire when the wheels are turned. Ackerman is desirable because it helps the front end turn in to the corner.
Camber: The degree of deviation between the top edge of the tire and a true vertical line running through the center of the wheel. If the top of the tire tilts inward as seen from the front, camber is negative; if it tilts outward, camber is positive. A tire's traction is always greatest when the largest part of its contact patch is in contact with the road surface, and static camber can be dialed in to keep the tire perpendicular as the chassis rolls in a turn. Excessive camber results in accelerated wear on the inner or outer shoulders of the tires, but most street cars can benefit from up to 1-1.5 degrees of negative camber.
Caster: The deviation in degrees between an imaginary line running through the upper and lower ball joints and a vertical line running though the center of the wheel hub to the center of the tire's contact patch on the ground. If the imaginary line tilts to the back of the vehicle as viewed from the side, caster is positive; if it tilts forward, caster is negative. High amounts of positive caster cause the wheels to try to center themselves as the vehicle moves forward resulting in higher steering effort.
Cross-Camber: A side-to-side difference in camber settings. Many circle-track cars are set up to make lefthand turns with positive camber on the inside wheel and negative camber on the outside wheel.
Cross-Caster: A side-to-side difference in caster settings. Up to a half-degree more positive caster on the passenger side is often used on production vehicles to compensate for the effect of crowned pavement and keeps the vehicle from pulling to the outside edge of the road. Many oval-track racers run even higher amounts of cross-caster on the outside wheel to help the car turn down to a lefthand corner.
Toe Angle: Toe angle is the difference in track widths between the leading and trailing edges of the tires. If the track is wider at the front, the wheels are toed-out; if the track is narrower at the front, the wheels are toed in. Toe-in is used on most drag and production cars to compensate for slack in the steering components so the front wheels track straight ahead under forward thrust. Toe-out is often used on road-race cars to improve corner-entry turn-in, but excessive toe-out can cause dartiness on straightaways and tire wear.

1969w3155

Kevin, was this business on Getty St. in Muskegon?

Ozzie

It seems like your choice of caster would be slightly different with a manual or power steering gear. I didn't see which you had. Assuming stock components, and nothing damaged or worn, it seems like 3 degrees should be obtainable, though it may be a bit more than many shops would often use. What you got seems fairly traditional. If you want to really "get into it" you can do it yourself, after buying some specialized tools.

ziff396

Nope not that one. It's in north Muskegon area.

It has power steering.

I drew a circle with a verticle line through it and then another one with the line tilted to the rear to show him what I was after. That is the point that he started really getting short with me and said that I didn't understand things. Anyways, after some time, I just paid and left. Like I said, it is 100% better than it was before. There were no shims at all in it when I took it in and now it has 3-4 on each side.

oldcutlass

I would have just told him to take it off the rack. Like I said earlier, a good knowledgeable front end guy is hard to come by.

oldstata

X2. I personally don't understand some of the performance aspects of it but I have spent all day hitting guys specs for it

Give me a spec and I will do my best to get it there some if my co workers run from it if its not stock they won't touch it

ziff396

I was not worried about paying more. I guess he just didn't have the time or patience. 1.5 hours was spent. The price was good. Just didn't get what I wanted. Like I said, it is 100% better than it was, but......
I'll just check around for a better one. Not a rush.
Sounds like you are what I was looking for, however, the gas would kill me to drive to you and back! Thanks.

oldstata

Thanks but I am not sure if I am . Hopefully I will let you know when I do mine I have only done a few a body alignments

Lady72nRob71

You could always buy one of the small alignment jigs and do it at home to your liking. I did this with good results. Details are in my Lady's front end thread below.

oldsbucket

i just went through the same issue . i think you will have to buy offset upper control arm shafts and after market upper arms with 4* caster built in maw get the lower arm also. then the shop will be able to set the front tires where ever you want. its well known that the frames sag with age and these parts will compensate for this . the problem is that when the camber is set all of the adjustment is gone to set the castor because the shaft is already against the frame or close depending on your car .

I bought the tube arms from summit a bit more than ebay but likely the same part and was surprised that they came out with 4* positive caster as advertised but all i could get was 0 camber no shims !! so to get it perfect i would go with the offset shafts next time but it drives good as is.

so don't sell the tech short he may need communication skills but could be right in what he was telling you, look at the shims if you see the fwd side or both with no shims its because he ran out of adjustment of course my theory could be wrong but thats the story based on my vista alignment

oldstata

If this is the case, I think the tech or service wrighter should have explained it to him so that he could of understood I agree with his specs are with in OE

What I disagree with is the fact that he claimed castor causes tire wear ?
As long as castor is equal it should not wear a tire

Camber and toe affect tire wear the most castor could cause a pull witch may result in tire wear if there is too much cross castor

oldcutlass

This is the conversation, the tech was wrong as caster is not tilting the tire and will not effect wear. You can get closer to 3 deg, he did not want to spend the time to do it.

olds1968

x2 the tech did not want to waste his time to get you what you wanted It is very possible to achieve the specs you are asking for. I work at Pepboys and when they have suspension and alignment training I let them align my car to show that they can manually input custom specs and show them how to align it. I have mine at zero camber with 2 degree of caster with factory toe spec.

ziff396

What he told me was that to adjust the castor any more, it would pull the camber out and cause tire wear. Here is what he ended up with for shims. Note the fat rusted one on the passenger side front.
(After looking at the HD pictures, it looks like some cleaning is in order!)

oldcutlass

IMHO there is a lot of room for adjustment there Ziff, he did not want to mess with it. That's not to say your car won't drive right with how he has it set up.

oldsbucket

As shown in your pictures left and right sides do not have and equal amount of shims.and down to last shim on one . frame sag or original manufacture your choice. If your want better handling more caster is beneficial via after market parts.

oldcutlass

The reason for the extra shims is the difference the tech aligned the camber to.

ziff396

Thanks guy's. I think I will go a different route, but not until next year now, as it is better than it was.