65B01Delta

Not Mine. Not Sure if it has the W-27 rear end or just the cover. Looks like just the cover to me. Either or, I'm just passing it on.


http://fortwayne.craigslist.org/cto/4218639658.html

wmachine

Unquestionably a cover only. Either the seller is ignorant, or a liar. Once again, when one falsehood is exposed, everything said is automatically questionable. I thus have doubts it is even an original 442 being a '72.

GAOldsman

Either way the W27 wasn't available for '72 as a factory RPO, so it was added later. Decent looking droptop nonetheless.

dfire25

Rear defroster on a convertible? I've never heard of that before.

vette442

The '71 only hood stripe and rear spoiler don't help the cause for authenticity either.
Terry

Rocketbrian

Is it my eyes, but the 442 numbers look like they are mounted too high up the fender on the drivers side. Does that oil fill spout look angled ala 1968? Attractive car however.

anthonyP

Unless special ordered, black was not an standard optional color in '72, and the spoiler looks hideous on the convertible.

oldspackrat

Hard to tell from the pictures, but looks like the pass side fender is from a '70. Maybe both fenders have been replaced? That might explain the 442 being to high on the drivers side?
Looks like a nice car though.

brddg

Yeah, the numbers on the drivers side look too high. And they're lined up like Steve Buscemi's teeth.

rgk1977442

What is a W-27 rear end? How can you tell that it is a W-27 rear end? Yes, I noticed the 442 emblem on the fenders don't match as well. It would be interesting to get the VIN from the owner. I have a book that would tell us exactly what it is. I wonder what happened to original engine and trans? Do you guys think that the car is worth $20K?

allyolds68

That would be a very special book

Allan R

I concur. The hard part of this sale is truly determining whether it actually was born as a 442 because VIN and cowl tags are absolutely no help unless it was an X code car... It would need some documentation like the BOS, broadcast card, window sticker... You're right that there are too many obvious discrepancies that create doubt. Someone who knows nothing about Oldsmobile will likely buy it and think it's the real deal. Sad - unscrupulous sellers/ignorant buyers.

According to the GM Parts manual/Assembly Manual/SPECS guide, the W27 cover was last offered on the 71 f85 (Cutlass/442). We all know that a true W27 aluminum housing/cover was only available in 1970.

1971 W27 cover - Group 5.398 Part number 231090.
1970 W27 aluminum carrier/cover package - same group; Part number 231026.

BTW did you notice that there's a limited slip tag on the diff cover? Makes you wonder why someone would go through the trouble of making this car look so nice on top and ignore the frame/bottom? That diff looks like it has a serious leak, either that or the brake lines over top are leaking...Pretty strong $$ ask for a car that still likely needs mechanical work.

Some of the verts were equipped with glass rear windows IIRC. The rear defroster is the 'defog on glass' or electric grid type we're used to seeing on cars today, and was an option. See 1971 Assembly Manual for details.

1972 AC equipped cars did not have the rear cowl vents either. That is a correct W29 looking hood for a non AC car though. Rear sway bar on the vert was not standard so this car may in fact have an FE2 suspension. BTW, not only is the Y73 hood stripe wrong, but did you also notice that the body stripes weren't properly represented as W29? There are only 2 sets of stripes on that car, and W29 had 3 on the sides. It should also have W29 hood stripes to be authentic. The rear spoiler was discontinued in March of 71, well before the first 72's rolled out of the factories.
Here's a better example


Ebony black (code 19) was not offered on ANY of the GM A body brands in 1972. You're 100% right about special order. I have a build sheet for an Ebony Black 72 Cutlass S (Freemont) to prove this. The paint is shown in bypass code 2. If this is in fact a true ebony black factory paint, the PNT code on the cowl tag should show -- -- to indicate extra cost special paint instead of 19 19

Scott, you may be right about it being a 70 fender, but keep in mind that 70-72 fenders are interchangeable. I'd suggest it's more likely that the builder didn't use the factory template design and just eye-balled it. It's pretty close, but just a tad high.

GAOldsman

Not unless that book contains all of the VIN's and corresponding options each VIN came ordered with. In 1972 the 442 reverted back to just an option which is RPO W29 and if you ordered a W30 then it became a 442 by default.

Yes it would, magical and priceless is some of the many adjectives that come to mind

Allan R

LOL - Mike and Scot. I love your descriptions of 'that book'. I think it would also be about a 100 feet thick and weigh about 3 tons.

rgk1977442

The Book is from "Car & Parts magazine" It is called "Catalog of Oldsmobile 4-4-2, W-Machines & Hurst/Olds ID Numbers 1964-91". It gives a description of each VIN and code numbers for these cars. Actually it has only 150 pages. lol It is a very special book.

rgk1977442

Alan, My book also shows that there was no black paint color codes for 1972. Ebony Black was offered in 1970 and 1971.

wmachine

Well, now that the book has been identified, I can say that it will *not* be able identify a 442 from the VIN and any codes. Not for 1972. That book is definitely not that special.

rgk1977442

No, It just proved that it is probably a 1971 black cutlass convertible, not a 1972.

66400

I bought that book when it was first offered(10 or 15 years ago)and I for one was disappointed in it. At least the cover had a 66 442 pictured(my favorite year). Color chips were poorly depicted.

Henry

Allan R

No, your book proves nothing of the kind. I have the same book and there's nothing in it to corroborate your statement. I'd LOVE to know (and likely so would Kurt, Mike and Scot) your reasoning because there's no apparent logical argument behind it. IF this car was a 71, the VIN would PROVE it to be a 442 because 442 was it's own model then and this car VIN would start out 344671...ALL 71 442's started out with code 344. And just an FYI - the convertible was only offered in the Cutlass Supreme lineup, not Cutlass. Folks get that mixed up because the script on the car only says 'Cutlass'. Just because Ebony Black wasn't offered on GM brand A bodies as a standard color choice in 72 doesn't prove anything - especially when it comes to paint and sellers. Black and red are 2 of the hottest colors for resale on the market.

I can prove that at least one 72 Cutlass S rolled off the assembly line in Ebony Black, and likely there were others. If there was only 1, my friend has one hell of a rare car. Here is a 1972 Cutlass S; model 3687, U code BUILD SHEET from a car that belongs to a friend, and it was factory ordered in Ebony Black at Freemont. It even shows code 19/19 in box 79 (color) of the sheet, and also again as a bypass code in box 107.

Buildsheet-Freemont_zpsdfd34b88.jpg

And by stroke of luck - it also shows PNT code 19 19 instead of -- -- on the cowl tag.
cowltag_zps56e471f7.jpg

You can link the build sheet to the cowl tag very easily with the references supplied.

This is just another example of why documentation is so very important with the 1972 442 model year.

rgk1977442

So, I stand corrected. So the question still stands, Is the car a rare and real 442? I guess the only way to find out is to call the owner and ask for VIN and documentation?

Allan R

The ONLY 1972 442's that can stand alone on VIN identification are the W30 cars. They will have an X code for the engine. Other than that there's simply no way to verify the 1972 442 except with documentation. The VIN or cowl tag simply doesn't have info about whether the car was born as a W29 442. There are a number of items added to the car that suggest it has some option add ons that were not available in 72. The seller hasn't provided any documentation on the car in his ad and I haven't seen anyone posting about this ad that's contacted the seller to find out anything more. So YES, get the seller to post a picture of the cowl tag, broadcast card, build sheet, bill of sale; anything that proves it's a 72 442 with a 455 and I'll agree that it could be a rare car with some personalized mods done by the previous owner(s). Just his say so is not proof enough. Too many people don't know how to properly validate the car they are selling.

Sans W35 spoiler, this is a nice looking example of a 72 CS convertible that appears to have some sheet metal and components that could be part of the W29 package (which was not available in 71 BTW).

Also the answer to one of your earlier questions about non original engine and trans? That hurts the authenticity/originality of this car especially and since it's claimed to be 'super rare' it really needs that original equipment to command $$$$$ pricing. The VIN of the car has to include either a U or V in the engine code to have been born with a 455. FYI there were only only 113 W30 442 verts built in 72 and if this is one, which I doubt, it has been seriously devalued. If it has an H, J, K, or M in the engine code, the car was born with a 350. A sad thing about 72 W29 442s though - they could be ordered with any engine code except X.

A vert can't have a power top as an option and depending when the car was built, JL2 power disc brakes became standard in early 1972.
W27 aluminum diff cover was never offered in 72 and is only 'super rare' on 1970 models as a complete aluminum housing and cover. The cover was only offered as an option in 70 and 71, but people love the look and buy them. I also have one, but it's simply an add on for my 72 that's not authentic - just looks good.
A51 bucket seats were standard in this car

If the car was produced with all these options it really is a high optioned car for its day.
- U21 rallye pac gages
- A46 power seat adjuster (Left side bucket seat only)
- C60 Air conditioning (N47 Power steering required)
- D55 console (although the hurst shifter could have been added, it was part of the W29 package)
- K30 Cruise control
- C49 electric rear window defogger
- N33 Tilt steering
- U58 AM/FM stereophonic radio (includes U80 rear speaker)
- P05 SSI wheels
- T44 Hood lock

But you'd need a window sticker or original bill of sale to validate all that because all those options could be added after the car left the factory - either by owner or by a dealer.

rgk1977442

So my understanding is, the 1970 & 1971 442 convertible could be Id by the Vin number & cowl number, but the 1972 442's converts. have to be id by their build sheets as well. The VIN & cowl numbers alone will not prove a 442 in 1972. That is great information to know for purchasing these cars. Thanks. Maybe the owner of this car will provide the documentation for this forum.

wmachine

Simply: '68-'71, the 442 was a separate model, so the VIN will id it as a 442. For those years the second and third digit in the VIN is "44". Don't need a book for that.
Other years have varying way to authenticate them as a 442.

eds

Man, don't know why folk insist on putting spoilers on verts.

I'm curious - if the seller simply offered it as a good condition, good driving car which is not original but has had numerous mods, what ballpark would you think a fair price would fall in?

Gary M

My window sticker shows special paint and at the bottom says Ebony Black/Black, the cowl tag shows 19 B , because of the convertible. Mine's not a 442 but I agree the build sheets and window sticker options will tell. If I had a dime for every clone 442 out there I would be filthy rich. Also $20,000 seems steep for that one, imo.

Gary M

KBB has a section for classic cars that would help you there but take into account the mileage may or may not be correct because on the new titles the don't record actual mileage any more. Mine shows mileage on multiple receipts through the years that make me believe it is accurate. If he has that it will help.

allyolds68

FreeRek is a consignment dealer. They have "offices" all over the country. That car is actually listed in the South Bend, Indiana "office".


http://www.freerek.com/pages.aspx?p=330393


I'll bet the "office" is in some guys living room. The real owner (the one that posted the CL ad) may not even know FreeRek has it listed. The CL owner's number shows up over the last few years on Chevelles.com and a number of other sites. He's probably a flipper too and doesn't know jack about the car

Allan R

That's the most bogus VIN I've ever seen.
Based on that alone I wouldn't touch this car.

rgk1977442

My apologies there is NO way that number is the VIN number. Thanks for that info on FreeRek Motors.

rgk1977442

Anybody else notice how this ad for this car dissappeared after our discussion on it on this forum?

allyolds68

It's just off Craigslist. It's still on their website:

http://www.freerek22.com/1972_Oldsmo..._224022610.veh

rgk1977442

I just saw the car is now posted on craiglist near toledo, ohio. I've been looking to find a convertible in ohio. I'm thinking of going to take a look at it. I wonder if it is the same owner? I think I'll have to go and find the old ad from fort wayne, ind, craiglist.

rgk1977442

I called the owner and the Vin number is #3J67M2M201205. According to Allan's previous post, the original engine in the car was a 350. I've asked the owner if he can send pictures of the cowl tag and the window sticker. Hopefully, he will have that information. If he doesn't, I think I have to believe that its a 1972 cutlass convertible, and not a 442 convertible like he is claiming.

65B01Delta

Triple Black 72 Olds 442 Convertible - $22000 (NW) Is this the same car ???

http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/4386593199.html

Allan R

The M in the engine slot indicates the car was born with a 350 4bbl dual exhaust engine (not the cutout bumper/trumpet exhaust) with down turned exhausts at the back. Just going by the information you've provided so far, the cowl tag should have some of these items on it:

ST-72 ...34267LANXXXXXX BDY (I'm guessing the body will come back around 434850??
TR 940 .....................19 B PNT
03D.........A51 (Time build code at Fisher body works lansing) I'm guessing this based on my cars build date at Lansing (04A) and the VIN sequence is 208783 and body 442325 A51 is strato bucket seats.

I notice that Frerek motors link is no longer working and their website has no inventory now. Makes ya wanna go hmmmmm??

Octania

Nice job, Allan R !!!

FYI, all y'all- for 1972, a real 442 not only cannot be divined by dissecting the VIN, except the W30 "X" motor code models, but the base engine available _IN THE 442_ was the
350....
TWO BARREL.

You read that right. The "422" version, if you will...
Well, 322? Probably 321 actually:
350
2-bbl
1-exhaust

Yet, such a car was a legitimate factory issue 442 optioned Cutlass.


"Anybody else notice how this ad for this car disappeared after our discussion on it on this forum?"
==============
One of the reasons you should ALWAYS copy and paste some of the text, at least, when discussing other internet ads, ESPECIALLY CL ADS, which are notoriously short lived and impossible to view later.

Allan R

I'd almost buy that Chris. The base engine for a 1972 Cutlass, and Cutlass S was the L32. BUT, the base engine for the 1972 442 CS vert (only CS that was offered with 442 option) was the L34 which was the 4bbl. Seems like more and more 72 CS vert '442s' are popping up every day. As Joe is fond of saying, ' probably more now than were ever produced back in the day', and of course they're all original, right?

So a 72 CS W29 vert 442 would convert to:
3 50
4 bbl
1 exhaust

The part about divining the VIN is a no brainer to you and me.

rgk1977442

Ok, Is it a 442? Here is the cowl tag number for the car.

ST 72 34267LAN425658 BODY
TR 970 19 B PAINT
3D A51

The 19 B I couldn't find in the paint codes for 1972. I am assuming that it means in Ebony Black with a Black convertible top. I found this in the 1971 paint codes. What does the TR stand for? I think I still need the window sticker or build sheet document to tell if it is truly has the 442 option? If he doesn't have the window sticker,which I'm pretty sure that he doesn't, Is there any other way to tell if it is a 442 that hasn't been talked about on this forum?

Gary M

19. B. is ebony black and was a special order color for that year. TR means trim. The B is black top.