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I have been looking for a nice 1970 442 convertible with automatic and air conditioning. I just left Ebuy and there is a beautiful black convertible W-30 4 speed for sale with ac.,blk conv top and white interior. Gorgeous car. The seller has advertised pdbrakes. The seller has also explained that the car was originally ordered with an OW automatic transmission in order to have air conditioning. The seller explains that the automatic was removed and later replaced with a 4 speed and now we have a 1970 W-30 with air conditioning and power disc brakes. T. he car has a checklist of W-30 items, including photo's of F heads (I think the casting numbers are correct). The seller credits Joe Padavano and others for W-30 check list. There is no buildsheet, invoice, or protect-o-plate. I am confused whether or not the car was born a W-30 or made into a W-30. I know the automatic W-30's had the same cam as the 455/365hp, and if I remember correctly,power disc brakes were not available in the 4 speeds because of the 4 speed cam lift. If it was born a W-30 automatic with power disc brakes, what cam is in the engine now that it has been converted from automatic to 4 speed? With no documentation, I believe it's possible to install all W-30 parts from a 442 with the 455/365 engine but without the documentation, not have the value of a true factory W-30. I may be confused. I need help on this one in order to offer the cars real worth. Thanks
There are hundreds if not thousands of 442s with parts added to appear/become W30 442s. IMO These account for 90+% of the undocumented W30s FOR SALE.
With the popularity of the new for 1970 442 with its high-compression 455, its "top dog" W30 reputation/scoops/stripes, and rarity in convertible form it is the Oldsmobile musclecar everyone wants and its values/auction results reflect that.
with 2933 convertible 442s built for 1970 & only 264 with the W30 OPTION Package - the odds that any of these ZERO evidence/undocumented cars are real W30 cars are SLIM!
there are constantly '70 W30 convertibles for sale (264 built)
there are rarely '68 H/Os for sale (515 built) 2X as many
there are rarely '69 H/Os for sale (914 built) 3X as many
my point being: why would there regularly be the most desirable/rarest/difficult to find & document OLDS available at every auction/collectable car format in the country? ..... because many are built to deceive either for profit or for the "look-at-me" factor.
Last edited by hurst68olds; February 9th, 2016 at 12:21 AM.
I completely agree. In 1970 the first car that I bought was a 1970 442 W-30 convertible with ac ,automatic, ps, and power disc brakes. I didn't want air conditioning for obvious reasons. My father forced me. His reasoning "even though it's a convertible, there will be days when it rains or it will be so humid, you will not be able to drive with the top down". He knew. In my area, there were a few W-30 convertibles and a few 442 convertibles. What was really rare were 442's with W-25 air induction hoods. My car came with an invoice, build sheet, and a protect-o-plate. Today, it seems there are more W-30's than manufactured new, and most 442's have the W-25 hood. I completely agree with your point. It's difficult to argue against your point. Thank you!
If it doesn't have paperwork don't get caught up in it. It's a 442 with some high dollar parts on it and that's it. He doesn't show a pic of the F heads so it probably doesn't have those, the correct carb, or the correct distributor. The fender wells look pretty shiny too. Not even a pic of the cowl tag.
Last edited by allyolds68; February 9th, 2016 at 04:56 AM.
Do I get a cut of the proceeds for the use of my name in the ad?
Based on a cursory look at the photos:
1) Drum brake M/C but a disk brake metering valve. All 1970 W-30s came with disk brakes, so this is likely an incorrect replacement.
2) The red inner fenders look like repros. Too red for 45 year old parts and lack of definition around the raised bosses. This is always a red flag (pun not intended - much).
3) Incorrect 1971-72 front fenders.
4) The photo of the VIN derivative on the block cleverly doesn't allow you to verify the numbers match
'256 is the manual trans carb, not the AT carb. The carb info is reversed in the FAQ.
If this car were originally an AT car, it should have a '258 carb. My guess is that the '256 is a restamp added when the manual trans was swapped - and who knows what else was "swapped" at the same time...
I don't have any of the experience most of you guys do authenticating these cars, nor do I claim to, but what caught my eye was that it has a "Engine: 442 Cubic Inch W-30". Although it does say farther down in the listing that it has a 455. Typo or red flag?
I don't have any of the experience most of you guys do authenticating these cars, nor do I claim to, but what caught my eye was that it has a "Engine: 442 Cubic Inch W-30". Although it does say farther down in the listing that it has a 455. Typo or red flag?
That's just a typo. There are far more meaningful issues with this car.
You can tell this car was restored by a non oldsmobile guy. The door panels are from a 71/72 lack of details add up to someone making another w-30 with out documentation
Please read my post. The car has no documentation: no invoice, no build sheet, no protect-o-plate. I saw a photo of F heads but I thought the casting numbers begin with 404? The seller has arrived at a clever explanation for the car being a W-30: wanted ac so car was ordered with automatic and switched at the dealer! I asked if the OW transmission is included with the sale and I have not received a response. You would think the seller would respond. Ordered as an automatic, the cam is the same as the 455/365 engine unless the cam was changed and I see no mention of the cam. I don't mind paying for an investment, but it should be a good investment. The seller also gives the appearance that the W-30 was authenticated by you as well as others. I know it wasn't. Is this car pieced together to make a W-30? Thanks So Very Much
Please read my post. The car has no documentation: no invoice, no build sheet, no protect-o-plate. I saw a photo of F heads but I thought the casting numbers begin with 404? The seller has arrived at a clever explanation for the car being a W-30: wanted ac so car was ordered with automatic and switched at the dealer! I asked if the OW transmission is included with the sale and I have not received a response. You would think the seller would respond. Ordered as an automatic, the cam is the same as the 455/365 engine unless the cam was changed and I see no mention of the cam. I don't mind paying for an investment, but it should be a good investment. The seller also gives the appearance that the W-30 was authenticated by you as well as others. I know it wasn't. Is this car pieced together to make a W-30? Thanks So Very Much
Again, it is not possible to definitively judge this car based on the limited photos in the ad. All I can say is that there are MANY red flags and the seller clearly wants to dollar (reserve not met at $60K).
An "investment" needs to be correct and documented. This car is neither. We've discussed most of the issues previously, but to recap:
Obviously reproduction red inner fenders
Incorrect 1971-72 front fenders
Incorrect master cylinder
Incorrect door panels
Incorrect trunklid wing (was not offered on convertibles)
Tall tale about the transmission
The studs used to hold down the intake manifold are not factory
Of course, other issues also raise questions.
Once again this is a car that has EVERY SINGLE option in the book. That is extremely unusual, as this was not the case when these cars were new. How many were added during the "restoration" and what else was done at that time?
The W27 cover looks new. Likely a repop.
Your question about the OW trans is a good one. It also raises a bigger issue, in that for the likely asking price of this car, there should be an inspection of casting numbers and date codes. This won't "prove" the car is a W-30, but it will provide a preponderance of circumstantial evidence. Similarly, let's see a photo of the cowl tag.
Keep in mind that the seller is a dealer, not an expert on W-30s. The seller is looking to flip a car at maximum profit. Don't expect a lot of help on substantiating the reality of the car. At $40K, this car might be worth it. At a price that is likely well above the current $60K "reserve not met", there are far too many questions.
Again I tried to post and again unable to post. Why not warn you before you prepare a post that your not logged in even though the program said I was. Frustrating and accomplished nothing
ALsp I was unable to send a private message five times before giving up. The definition of insanity is to repeat the same steps expecting a different outcome. Morew sleep lost. Maybe I shouls start earlier, fail and go to sleep!!!
DIEGO I TRIED RESPONDING FIVE TIMES AND FAILED EACH TIME TRIED.
ALsp I was unable to send a private message five times before giving up. The definition of insanity is to repeat the same steps expecting a different outcome. Morew sleep lost. Maybe I shouls start earlier, fail and go to sleep!!!
DIEGO I TRIED RESPONDING FIVE TIMES AND FAILED EACH TIME TRIED.
If by chance you are still having issues, type your reply into your computer via your notepad/wordpad/MS Word program and then at least your replies won't be wasted. Take your reply text, and hit CTRL and 'A' on your keyboard at the same time while in one of those programs then hit CTRL and 'C'. Click on the text box at the ClassicOlds site where you go to type your reply and hit CTRL and 'V' on your keyboard at the same time. It will copy your text and paste it into place. At least you won't have to type your reply over again until you get the main issue figured out.
Regarding the black 442 "W-30" I spoke to the "consignor" about the car he has for sale. I asked if he had the original OW transmission that the dealer "switched" Response No. Asked if he has an invoice from the original Oldsmobile dealer reflecting the work performed in "switching" the transmission Response No. Asked what dealer did the work Response "don't know". The consignor has no invoice, no build sheet, and no protect-o-plate. No documentation.The consignor doesn't know what cam is in the engine (since automatic and manual transmissions had different cams. The consignor did express that the car has a lull when first accelerating. Asked whether or not the car has been repainted "doesn't know" The consignor claims to be representing a collector selling 25 cars. I also asked what price he would take and the consignor's price is $160,000.00, and not a penny less. His position is that he is selling a beautiful 1970 442 W-30 convertible with ac and many other options. The car is a rare car and that he will get his price.
Regarding the black 442 "W-30" I spoke to the "consignor" about the car he has for sale. I asked if he had the original OW transmission that the dealer "switched" Response No. Asked if he has an invoice from the original Oldsmobile dealer reflecting the work performed in "switching" the transmission Response No. Asked what dealer did the work Response "don't know". The consignor has no invoice, no build sheet, and no protect-o-plate. No documentation.The consignor doesn't know what cam is in the engine (since automatic and manual transmissions had different cams. The consignor did express that the car has a lull when first accelerating. Asked whether or not the car has been repainted "doesn't know" The consignor claims to be representing a collector selling 25 cars. I also asked what price he would take and the consignor's price is $160,000.00, and not a penny less. His position is that he is selling a beautiful 1970 442 W-30 convertible with ac and many other options. The car is a rare car and that he will get his price.
Who is going to spend $100k+ on a car online and not have a clear picture of the cowl tag and VIN plate? Also they should have replaced the few blurry pics they had with super clear images. There are things being left out for a reason.
Who is going to spend $100k+ on a car online and not have a clear picture of the cowl tag and VIN plate? Also they should have replaced the few blurry pics they had with super clear images. There are things being left out for a reason.
I also always wonder why, if the seller won't go below $160K, do you waste everyone's time with a starting bid that is so low?
OK, I know why - the seller is simply using ebay for advertising, not to actually sell the car that way. Still pizzes me off.
I also always wonder why, if the seller won't go below $160K, do you waste everyone's time with a starting bid that is so low?
OK, I know why - the seller is simply using ebay for advertising, not to actually sell the car that way. Still pizzes me off.
Always list your house for at least $10 million. Then you get the benefit of media attention and neighborhood chatter. Then go for the dramatic price reduction to $400,000.
The red inner fenders, are not correct for 1970-71, they are 1969 or older. The fact they are not original to the car speaks volumes. The only reason to replace original red inner fenders with another set or repro's, is the car had a bad engine fire or was hit in the front so hard they would be un-repairable. In any case big red flags, with the most obvious reason, the car did not come with them in the first place.
The red inner fenders, are not correct for 1970-71, they are 1969 or older.
That is a REALLY good catch. Round bosses on the driver's side inner for the cruise control module mounting are 68-69. Square ones are 70-72. We already noted the 71-72 front fenders, so the front end has been replaced.
The red inner fenders, are not correct for 1970-71, they are 1969 or older.
that means the inner fenders aren't bolted to the fenders at the wheel opening. The number of holes differ between 68/69 and 70-72. Not to mention the wheel opening shape is different. OR, new holes were put into those inners in order to bolt to the fenders at the wheel opening. I'd REALLY hate to see what other "cars" this seller has for sale.
That is a REALLY good catch. Round bosses on the driver's side inner for the cruise control module mounting are 68-69. Square ones are 70-72. We already noted the 71-72 front fenders, so the front end has been replaced.
Please share the details re: how to identify '70 vs '71-'72 fenders.
Or a link to a previous discussion - apologies if this has been recently covered.
You can tell this car was restored by a non oldsmobile guy. The door panels are from a 71/72 lack of details add up to someone making another w-30 with out documentation
i'm on a learning spree today - how do you tell the difference between 70 and 71/72 door panels?
This time I did search beforehand - Year One's catalog has some text and pictures on page 27...but how did _you_ see this from the pictures? Is it the "horizontal stitch bars" as shown on Picture 20?
I'll point out that to no one's surprise, the car is unsold with reserve not met at $60K. Also, all bidders' names were private, which sure might make a cynic think they were all shill bids.
i'm on a learning spree today - how do you tell the difference between 70 and 71/72 door panels?
This time I did search beforehand - Year One's catalog has some text and pictures on page 27...but how did _you_ see this from the pictures? Is it the "horizontal stitch bars" as shown on Picture 20?
Thanks
Wood grain does not match dash and console wood grain.
I'll point out that to no one's surprise, the car is unsold with reserve not met at $60K. Also, all bidders' names were private, which sure might make a cynic think they were all shill bids.
I searched eBay's closed listings for sold cars only that were Olds. Not many went for much at all compared to what you would think. I'm almost positive that eBay just isn't the proper venue for a nice old Olds. Parts cars, maybe. Drivers that aren't special...possibly. But nice cars with restorations, nope.
February 8th, 2016, 10:24 PM
