Little Red Man

Hey Folks,

Pulled the 455 out of the Cutlass today. All the information I had, was from my nephew, and he just indicated "I think it is the head gasket". Managed to pull it out, and take her apart and indeed the head gaskets were done, but there was water EVERYWHERE, and so I think snow may have entered the carb/manifold from sitting for a year or two, which compounds the problem.

Anyway, I am an IT guy and can troubleshoot the crap outta computer systems......and can also troubleshoot many things in the automobile world, but my experiences with the guts of an internal combustion engine are likely lacking compared to many on this site.
Therefore, I am going to post a few pictures and comments, and I would very much appreciate it if some of you could review the images, ask some questions and perhaps help me on my first road block to building out the car
.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...d-rockers.html
Here is a pic of the rusty manifold, but it also shows the major goo that was all over the internals of the engine.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...22669-yuk.html
This is a shot of the rusty goo inside the cylinder.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...670-water.html
Here is a shot of just how much water was in the engine. I did manage to get the girl to turn over (by hand, with the plugs out) and spit some of the water out, so this is what was left over.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-pin-head.html
Here is a broken guide stud for the head
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ngy-valve.html
Serious valve gunk!
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...alves-out.html
Head with valves out.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-manifold.html
Seriously rusty manifold!

So, as far as troubleshooting goes, there are a few clues I can see clearly, but they don't mean a lot to me. Thoughts anyone? To clarify, the water into the carb/manifold I think I understand (i.e. environmental) but the (what appears to be) catastrophic failure of the head gasket(s) is a bit of a mystery.

And now my questions.........Does the broken guide stud for the head make this block non-usable?

And if it does NOT make it non-usable, can this be salvaged and rebuilt? I do not know how long the water was in the engine, but for sure there is quite a bit of rusty deposits in the top end. The bottom end does not have rust but just the milky white water and oil grunge.

Any thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated....

rustyroger

The broken guide stud won't render the block useless.
But the rust in the bores is a concern. If it has penetrated deep into the cylinder walls it may not be possible to re-bore the block. It may just be a patina of rust and a clean up is all that is required.
I'm pretty sure a complete rebuild is needed; you need to get the engine stripped down and get an expert opinion from a reputable machine shop. Old fashioned American V8's are remarkably robust, but a good engine builder with a dial gauge and micrometer will be able to tell you if it's feasible.

Roger.

Little Red Man

Thank much Roger (super cool, awesome name by the way!......it is mine also <grin>).

This is mostly what I thought, and I will likely be tearing things down all the way to have the block checked/inspected/measured/etc.

Would still love to hear from other folks about speculation on why the gaskets would have blown up to such an extent. One thing I did observe, was that in many spots the gasket actually fully covered the journals; I am at a loss to understand if this would be by design, or perhaps the wrong gaskets were installed?

dc2x4drvr

The block is very useable, looks like the engine had oil in it when stored. What are your goals for the rebuild?

Little Red Man

Very good to know....thanks.....there was indeed oil in the engine, but to some extent, was mixed with water/coolant. The other Roger posted about a "patina" of rust in the cylinders and I can confirm that that is the case on first blush. That is to say, I can rub off most if not all the rust that sits on the cylinder walls. I currently have everything heavily coated in WD40, and hope to get the engine completely torn down tomorrow and then fully cleaned up and checked out.

To answer your question, there is some question of if/when I will take full ownership of the car this engine came out of, which will influence what happens with the engine next. The subject has been discussed ad nauseam in the Newbie Forum, if you are at all interested.

Regardless, assuming I do get ownership, my hope is to build this baby up solid. I would like to get a nice lumpy cam in to get that beautiful idle sound we all like. Depending on what needs to be done to the bores, potential for higher compression pistons, a bunch of headwork and an aftermarket intake and carb. I am not really planning to race the car, but have a need for some HP to make the car plenty of fun to drive.

With that said, if I do go this route I will be back with plenty of questions, as I have always been second hand on builds like this, but will now be doing it by myself, with my 11 YO son.

rustyroger

Hey Roger;
This is the place to ask questions about rebuilding an Olds engine. A million combined man-hours of experience, and everyone an Oldsmobile enthusiast.
When you come to building your engine, be clear about exactly what you want to do with the car, no good building for a dragstrip if you want to roll across country with a trailerhome, conversely if you want to burn some rubber then building it for a lazy long life won't be the answer.

But we wish you luck with the car, and can we have some pictures please?.

Roger.

Fun71

The problem areas will be where the piston rings sit in the bore, as that is where the water would sit and cause the most rust on the cylinder walls.

It is by design. Many of the passages are there for block manufacturing and the head gaskets match the water openings in the heads to direct water flow to where it is supposed to go and not into all the casting passages.

Grumbler

Where about in BC are you? That block will likely need machine work, if your around the Vancouver area I've taken my 455 to Canada Engines in Surrey

http://www.canadaengines.com/

Little Red Man

Thanks guys. Yeah I figured it would need some machining for sure. I am in Salmon Arm and have heard good things about Canada Engines. But have also heard good things about K & S in Kelowna which is quite a bit closer to me.

Gotta go to Cow Town for work and to pick up a frame this week, but will finish tear down when I return and post some more pictures then.

RROLDSX

I've heard many good things about High Performance engines in Burnaby and Dave highly recommends Joss Engines in Lethbridge I believe. Just puttin it out there.

Little Red Man

Decided I was going to work on the engine a bit today. I did not get around to pulling the bottom end fully apart yet, as I wanted to measure the piston to deck height first.

Did not get to doing any measurements, but did take some pics.

Can you guys confirm that what I am seeing is valve marks on the tops of the pistons?

If this is the case, I presume the pistons need to be replaced? Any thoughts on what causes this? I believe I read that heads valve train is not adjustable, but there did seem to be some shims on the heads, although I am not entire sure what affect that would have, specifically.

Sorry for so many questions....it is has been a lot of years since I got this deep into the guts of an engine.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...5-piston1.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...5-piston2.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...5-piston3.html

Grumbler

I don't know whether those are valve marks or not, but considering the performance goals you have for your build, you'd need to replace those low compression pistons anyway, I think they are somewhere around 8 to 1 or even lower. I used the KB Icons which puts me around 10.5 to 1, nice street engine

MDchanic

Yup.



Nope, not if they're otherwise okay. Those are fine. Here's what mine looked like:



They work fine.



Overrevving.



Sorry, that's a 1968 or '69 motor with 10.25:1 pistons.

- Eric

Grumbler

My mistake then. I thought all dished pistons were low comp like my old ones but your picture gives a better perspective, I see the difference now

MDchanic

My photo is of a 1968 10.25:1 350.

In both the 350 and 455, the 9:1 CR pistons have a wider, deeper dish.
In both cases, the stock high compression pistons have V-shaped notches at the front of the crown, while the low compression pistons have U-shaped notches.

- Eric

Little Red Man

Thanks Roger....regarding your question, I am not really interested in the strip, but more touring (NOT with a trailer) with some punch to play with the local boys here and there.


As for pictures, you can check my Gallery and the Nubies forum; look for keyword frame, as mine appears to be toast.


To the rest of the responses....thanks a lot....you seem to know your engines! I need to be away for a week for work, but will finish tearing things down when I get back.


More questions!.....so, if the valves are hitting the pistons due to over-revving, what is considered over-revving? >5500 RPM or what?
Is there head work that can be done to prevent this in the future (within reason.....I get that you cannot rev these engines to 7500 RPM for example....at lest that not that I am aware of).


Also, with your collective knowledge I have to think someone knows the answer! What is the stock piston to deck measurement?


PS Started to read a pile of some of the other posts on this part of the forum.....to be clear, I do get the various concepts on engine components, but I gotta tell ya, based on what I am reading I am WAY outta my league. Regardless, I do hope you will have patience with me and what might be considered a "stupid question".......

rustyroger

It may be tired valve springs that allowed contact with the pistons at high revs.
I'm inferring you want something like the original spec. As the engine is going to have the whole works a set up that will produce plenty of reliable torque and good hp running on pump gas should be easy to achieve.
Plenty of people here who know how to go about this - that doesn't include me btw - and remember, if you don't know the answer it's a smart question. Dumb would be not asking.

Roger.

Little Red Man

Did the deck to piston top @TDC measurement, and all except one were 25 thou, with the exception being near 50.

Presume one rod is bent…can rods be straightened? Is it better to replace the whole lot?

On another note, was speaking with a resto gear head last week, and he thought that the busted head dowel might be a sign of overall block weakness….thoughts?

Also, did a quick de-glaze…..clearly that did not take off enough material to get thru some of the patina of rust. Which leads me to two questions; indications from you guys is that the engine has the stock pistons and as such, I presume the engine has never been bored over? I ask because all the rods are stamped, and I would have thought if you have the engine that far down, a boring would have been good to do at the time? Further, I have to think 30 thou would clean up the rust, no?

And finally for this post….are the vertical marks on the cylinders normal wear and tear, or would this be a sign of something at issue deeper in the engine?

rustyroger

Do the pistons have scuff marks?.
If it was my engine, and I had a big enough budget I would re-bore the block and put in new pistons. Next step is to get everything else measured for wear or misalignment and get a price for the work required for a quality job.

Roger.

MDchanic

At the very least, this one needs to be bored or honed (I can't tell how deeply it's etched):




It would have been good to have been able to see pictures before they cylinders were deglazed.

How big is the ridge at the top of the cylinders?

A normal stock deck height is in the 0.020-0.025" range, so you're right that that 0.050" one is way off.

Nice neat disassembly job. From what I can see, all of the parts look original, with the exception of the cam timing sprocket, which isn't stock.

How do the bearings and shells look?

My general impression: Needs to be checked for cracks, bored, with new pistons and rings, new bearing shells (of course), and the rods checked and possibly resized or straightened, if possible.

Of course, while you're doing all of that, you Might As Well...

- Eric

steverw

From the looks of your intake manifold and what appears to be a windage tray on your table of parts, along with 4 of your main cap bolts, looks like you have a high compression Toronado motor. Nice motor to have, hope it checks out ok for you. Definately have it vatted and magnafluxed for cracks. Looks like one cylinder needs boring, If thats the case id have them all bored and torque plate honed. Member Cutlassefi can help you with parts, and his vast knowlege as well.
Steve

rustyroger

I wonder how an engine with one oversize cylinder and piston would run?.

Roger.

MDchanic

You'd never notice the difference (ASSuming we're not talking high-revving race motor).

Look at the variations in compression that you find routinely in good-running motors.

- Eric

Little Red Man

Good question....will have a look.....and yes...I will be doing some machine work, for sure (i.e. re-bore, deck, measuring etc.) but was really just looking for some opinions...thanks Roger.

Little Red Man

It would have been good to have been able to see pictures before they cylinders were deglazed. - Yeah, I do have some, but they are not after I pulled the pistons and cleaned the bores out, and so all you can see is a lot of rust, goo and crud.

How big is the ridge at the top of the cylinders? - Surprisingly small. I checked before popping out the pistons and did not ridge ream, and they came out nice and easy.

A normal stock deck height is in the 0.020-0.025" range, so you're right that that 0.050" one is way off. - Thanks for that.

Nice neat disassembly job. From what I can see, all of the parts look original, with the exception of the cam timing sprocket, which isn't stock. - Again, thanks for the info.

How do the bearings and shells look? - Nothing looks nasty after inspection, other than what I would consider normal wear (although I ain't no expert).

My general impression: Needs to be checked for cracks, bored, with new pistons and rings, new bearing shells (of course), and the rods checked and possibly resized or straightened, if possible. - Yep...thought so, but nice to have a second opinion.

Of course, while you're doing all of that, you Might As Well...- LOL....yeah...I read about a MAW hat....I am not sure if the hat is for protection or to help focus on all the things one COULD do <grin>....

- Eric[/QUOTE]

Little Red Man

Thanks Steve....will have the whole block gone over for sure...and will reach out to Cutlassefi.....

rustyroger

I think it would be so unbalanced as to render it unusable.

Any one ever done this as an experiment?.

Roger.

MDchanic

Ah. A challenge.

I know this has been done, but I have not done it myself, so cannot comment from experience.

Tie- breaker?

- Eric

allyolds68

On 2 stroke boat motors they routinely only bore the cylinders that need it. I had a 175 Johnson that had Standard, .020 and .040 pistons. They run fine. I think 2 strokes are a lot more forgiving than 4 strokes, certainly less moving parts. They don't do any balance modifications.


I doubt you'd notice the difference on a four stroke piston bore any more than a you'd notice a difference in compression between cylinders of less than 5%.


What you'll find is any decent engine builder will refuse to even touch an engine unless he bores it. That way he can control all the clearances (assuming he assembles it)

Octania

I have found a single 0.010 oversize piston as done by the factory. Instead of ABCD stamp code bore it was like M or L.

wr1970

I would not advise using a one cylinder over bore. For a first size may work okay. With more than that i would think you would be running into other problems as you accelerate and at 5500 rpm the stress will cause a failure at some point in time. Remember a engine is only as strong as it's weakest link. JM0

Little Red Man

I would be up to experimenting if you all poney up the $$ for the tests <evil grin>.

*** U ME ing that none of you all will bite on my offer, the point of this is moot, as I will be boring all eight cylinders!

Little Red Man

Thanks Mike,


You made a comment that caught my eye, and I have been wondering this for some time now. I obviously cannot do the machining, but there are some things I can do prior to taking it in for "full milling". Regardless of that, I have a great desire, that once the machine work is done I assemble the engine by myself.


With that said, a general question to all who might want to reply. I have been involved in several builds, but have not done one myself "un-supervised". So the question I have is, a fellow with quite good mechanical skills, but not an expert by any means, can that fellow assemble the engine himself?

rustyroger

I have to say I'm surprised. I'm not disputing you, just I wouldn't have expected it.

Boring one cylinder would necessarily mean fitting a heavier piston into one bore, aside from the rebored cylinder probably having more compression due to no wear, - ok, not with a new engine - than the others. Also it would inherently unbalance the reciprocating weight on the inlet stroke, when variations in compression are largely negated. At certain engine speeds I think it would set up a resonace sufficient to do some damage.
However in the real world most multi cylinder engines will have all cylinders worn to some extent if one is worn to the point of needing a rebore.
Replacement oversize pistons have always been sold in engine sets over here, at least for most mainstream engines.

Roger.

rustyroger

Sure you can. There is nothing complicated about assembling an Oldsmobile V8 engine, or any other contemporary American ohv engine for that matter.
Cleanliness and patience are the watchwords, and use good quality tools.
If you aren't sure of anything just ask. Lots of people here have built engines for long life or tarmac wrinkling power, and all points in between.

Roger.

Octania

You would probably want a friend with the right tools to come help with the cam degreeing, if you have not done that. It's a handul of specific tools that most home mechanics will not have- dial indicator, degree wheel that does not fit JUST a Cheby, etc. Setting pushrod length or rocker position, ditto, easier with adjustable rockers, but incorrect length pushrods may "adjust right" but still provide poor valve tip contact, so someone with experience should assist there.

64Rocket

I also have run across a 455 with one cyl .010 over. They may have adjusted the balance .
I also have had a 455 block with a .010 over valve lifter. Did not think anything about the marking on the block. Just assume it was about the cyl bore, for I was boring anyway. Did the machine work, started to assemble and found the marking meant the lifter bore. Had to bore and bush the lifter bore.

Gene

Little Red Man

Interesting how everything looks different once cleaned up.

Close-ups - Not convinced this is normal now that I look at it closer




Any thoughts on the following pics? What causes the "coking" on the rocker arms and connecting rods??




And then there is this....not good either, I presume?

rustyroger

That looks like a crankshaft that needs re-grinding and polishing to me.
The bearings look like, well, old worn bearings.
By "coking" I guess you mean a build up of carbon deposits?. Quite normal for a high mileage worn engine, particularly if the oil wasn't changed as often as it should have been, or cheap low quality oil was used. No worries though, it will all clean up like new.
But do make sure the oil galleries are all properly cleaned out, oil crud left in there could render an expensive re-build wasted money if the engine doesn't get proper lubrication. Hot tanking should clear everything out, your machinist should recommend that to you anyway if he is a reputable tradesman.

Roger.

Roger.

MDchanic

What Roger said.

That bearing journal looks slightly worn but okay, except for that transverse gouge that you highlighted - that's no good, and will require regrinding.

The bearing shells look quite worn, but not destroyed.

- Eric