455 overheating, help!!

[geckonz08]

FORGET ABOVE sorry -BUT fastengineparts .com has a variety of harmonic balancer producers if you are still after such an item
mike

[Oldsguy]

Originally Posted by sootieoil

evans waterless coolant will stop the overheating!
water will destroy your cooling system in due time.
I have it in 4 different vehicles, all never need any maintainence

I did some research (all be it minimal). Read here.


Notice the third application? Hmmmm...And engine coolant IS listed, see number eight.

[a911sc]

Originally Posted by gibbo69olds

but if the balancer is crud I am just setting it incorrectly. Wouldn't it make sense to test the balancer first?

Gibbo69olds,
My first post here and thought this would be a good thread to chime in on.

IMO you have a lot of variables, lots of different things you have tried and possibly multiple causes. Believe me I have been there and I feel your pain. I think you need to go through all the potential causes one at a time and try to break them down as contributors and/or causes.

I think you should address the sitting in the driveway overheating first. Things are easy to test and the engine is under no load so the cooling demand is really next to nothing. I'll ask this question - what are ALL the potential causes of overheating just sitting in the driveway under no load? I'll take a stab and suggest some tests.
1) Air flow
Setup one or two external fans that blow into the radiator and see if this improves things. Take a garden hose and spray the radiator with water. If no change in overheating is observed then your flown may be too low.
2) Coolant flow
Get a IR surface temperature gage (Radio Shack or Harbour Freight) and measure the upper and lower radiator hoses. If the supply hose to engine is significantly colder than the return then the coolant is staying in the radiator too long. I'll measure mine tonight and report back what the temps are for comparison.
3) Head gasket
Run engine with the radiator cap removed and smell the radiator fluid. If it has an exhaust smell then there is exhaust gas entering the cooling system. Check for air bubbles as well.
4) Cracked block
Same as #3
5) Timing - see below
6) Carburetor - I am going to go out on a limb - I would be very surprised if a carburetor could cause overheating at idle. The engine load is almost nothing and I would expect the cooling system to have plenty of reserve capacity to overcome any gross lean (or rich) condition - plus his plugs didn't look bad.
7) Thermostat - I think you said you have run a 160. Have you ever run without a thermostat. Might be worthwhile as the flow should be greater as well.

I would say yes you need to determine where TDC is on the HB. If the HB has slipped then you need to re-mark it. If the HB is moving around this might be like hitting a moving target though - I am not familiar with how these things slip but it sounds like they remain stable after they slip?? As a starting point set the initial timing to 10-12 BTDC with the vacuum advance disconnected and hose plugged. The engine should idle all day long at 10 BTDC. I would also check you mechanical advance by revving the engine to 3000 and checking the timing (you will need an adjustable timing light - not sure if this is the type you bought). With the initial timing set to 10 the total (mechanical+initial) should be about 25-30 BTDC at 3000rpm which means the mechanical is contributing about 15-20. Now for test purposes the vacuum advance is not really necessary so I would leave it disconnected and plugged. This will eliminate one other "timing" variable. I have been fighting a pinging problem and have been playing with different advance springs (HEI distributor) so I have been running without the vacuum advance for most of the summer. No problems other than slightly less cruise throttle response and probably less fuel mileage.

To answer one of your previous questions the vacuum advance can be connected to either manifold vacuum or ported vacuum. Manifold vacuum will give full advance at idle then will drop off and come back up as the engine is revved. The ported vacuum will be zero at idle then will gradually increase as the engine is revved. I don't think one is significantly better than the other although I tend to prefer ported FWIW.

Anyway, give theses things some thought and report back any findings.

1970 Cutlass Convertible, 455ci, TH400

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by sootieoil

evans waterless coolant will stop the overheating ........

I'll drink to that.

Far easier than dealing with the actual problem.

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

........ Read here.

Too many big words for me.

I once knew a Guy who had the same sort of heating problems, with his 455 powered '50 Olds 88 Coupe, for several years. He "trailered" it to the strips (low elevens) and drove it very little on the street, because of the high temps.

He replaced the radiator with a thicker and larger version (about ⅓ larger) aluminum version, added an inline electric pump, two electric fans, a custom made stainless steel shroud, and Water Wetter was his choice for coolant.

He asked me, on several occasions, how I could drive mine to Carlsbad, Bakersfield, or Phoenix, make a few passes, and drive it home, without any problems. I could only ask him, why he couldn't do the same.

I eventually bought his Red Coupe at a very good (his wife gave him the ultimatum) price. Put his 468, in place of my 437, drove it down to Carlsbad, made a few passes, and drove it home.

It has a stock '50 Olds radiator, with a 50/50 mix of tap water and whatever coolant was on sale at Autozone, a flex fan, no shroud, a 180°stat, and it ran at 180° (or so) Highway and City.

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ Setup one or two external fans that blow into the radiator and see if this improves things ........

From: http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...html#post35908

Originally Posted by gibbo69olds

........ Coupe, It overheats in all circumstances. The car has really good power ........

It has already been determined that it overheats on the highway, which means that it is not an air flow problem.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ If the supply hose to engine is significantly colder than the return then the coolant is staying in the radiator too long ........

To the contrary: The cooling media is only significantly cooler when the entire system is working properly.

Too long = restriction = lack of flow = overheating.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ I think you said you have run a 160 ........

And he also said, it was working properly.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ Have you ever run without a thermostat. Might be worthwhile as the flow should be greater as well ........

And that would prove what?

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ vacuum advance can be connected to either manifold vacuum or ported vacuum ........

There is no reason logical reason to use direct manifold vacuum.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ Manifold vacuum will give full advance at idle ........

Poor substitute for an optimal initial setting.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ then will drop off and come back up as the engine is revved ........

Exactly the opposite of what is needed.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ ported vacuum will be zero at idle ........

Right where it should be.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ then will gradually increase as the engine is revved ........

Not even close.

As soon as the throttle is opened, both ports draw vacuum from the same intake manifold.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ I don't think one is significantly better than the other ........

Not even close.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ I have been fighting a pinging problem and have been playing with different advance springs ........

Interesting topic for a new thread.

Norm

[z11375ss]

Norm you should explain what the fix is if you can. You can certainly pick apart nearly any thread where stupidity is dicovered, but what is the fix? I don't know either but I bet I could figure it out if were there. Are you with me on this?

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by z11375ss

you should explain what the fix is if you can ........

Not possible, with the information we have been given.

Originally Posted by z11375ss

........ You can certainly pick apart nearly any thread where stupidity is discovered ........

Nothing to do with "picking apart" threads or "stupidity". If you wish to discuss my posting style, send me a PM.

Originally Posted by z11375ss

........ I bet I could figure it out if were there ........

In person (and before he started "fixing" it) an accurate diagnosis should have taken less than 10 minutes.

Originally Posted by z11375ss

........ Are you with me on this?

I have no idea where you are, or what you are on.

If you wish to discuss it further, send me a PM. You can start by telling me WTF you are talking about.

Norm

[z11375ss]

Norm, you bring nothing positive to any post. If you don't know the answer stay out of it instead of critiquing everyone elses posts. I wish I were a moderator your ass would be off. Oh, forget all that I see you're from Socal. That explains alot.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by z11375ss

........ I wish I were a moderator your ass would be off ........

You need to sober up.

Norm

[geckonz08]

Seems the simple checks may be the first thing to do -replace the t/stat ($4 ? )
reverse Flush the radiator

All very well to go down the track with the process but seems to me B follows A in most scenarios

[a911sc]

O.K. Norm I'll engage. Not sure you understood some of my suggestions so I will try to clarify............

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

It has already been determined that it overheats on the highway, which means that it is not an air flow problem.

What kind of logic is that? It overheats on the highway so the airflow is not a problem? Enlighten me please?

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbo69olds
........ If the supply hose to engine is significantly colder than the return then the coolant is staying in the radiator too long ........

To the contrary: The cooling media is only significantly cooler when the entire system is working properly.

You quoted gibbo69olds when it was actually I who said that - probably an honest mistake - just wanted to point it out.

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ I think you said you have run a 160 ........

And he also said, it was working properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ Have you ever run without a thermostat. Might be worthwhile as the flow should be greater as well ........

And that would prove what?

What is the return coolant temperature - he needs to measure that to confirm the T/S is indeed opening at 160* or 180* or whatever he thinks is in there. Running without a thermostat should increase the flow. I say "should" because he could have restricted flow or crappy water pump or something along those lines. I was just suggesting another data point to try to narrow down a flown problem.

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ vacuum advance can be connected to either manifold vacuum or ported vacuum ........

There is no reason logical reason to use direct manifold vacuum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ Manifold vacuum will give full advance at idle ........

Poor substitute for an optimal initial setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ then will drop off and come back up as the engine is revved ........

Exactly the opposite of what is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ ported vacuum will be zero at idle ........

Right where it should be.

I agree. However, if you do some searching on this site and other Oldsmobile sites you will find many who swear by manifold vacuum for the advance.

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ then will gradually increase as the engine is revved ........

Not even close.

As soon as the throttle is opened, both ports draw vacuum from the same intake manifold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ I don't think one is significantly better than the other ........

Not even close.

I disagree. Ported vacuum will vary depending on the throttle plate opening. Ported vacuum will not be the same as manifold vacuum as soon as the throttle is opened. With small throttle openings ported will remain closer to zero than manifold.

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Quote:
Originally Posted by a911sc
........ I have been fighting a pinging problem and have been playing with different advance springs ........

Interesting topic for a new thread.

I would like that. As soon as I get some more data I'll start one.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ will try to clarify ........

I'm sure everyone else will appreciate it, as much as I do.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ What kind of logic is that? .......

The same logic I grew up with.

Do you want to stay on topic, or are you trying to start another pizzing contest?

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ Enlighten me please? ........

Isn't "enlightenment" why we are here?

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ it was actually I who said that ........

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure everyone else appreciates it, as much as I do.

Having said that: If I edited it, to reflect the correct author, would it make my statement any less valid?

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ just wanted to point it out ........

"Common Courtesy". No need to explain it.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ However, if you do some searching on this site and other Oldsmobile sites ........

Assuming you are serious: Not the way it works. Protocol is, that since you made the statement, you do your own search, then post any relevant links.

Originally Posted by a911sc

........ you will find many who swear by manifold vacuum for the advance ........

No doubt

I would expect that they all based their opinions on the subject post, at the following link.

http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...html#post39036

Norm

[J-(Chicago)]

Please run a thermostat
Taking it out does nothing beneficial for your motor.
Especially if you have an ac condenser in front of your radiator.

[dan2286]

Is there any way to actually test how coolant is flowing through the engine to try to find blockages without having to tear the engine apart? Is it possible the thermostat is staying open at all times and not giving the coolant a chance to absorb heat from the engine? Have you measured the inlet and outlet temps at the radiator? Im not sure if any of these will help, just throwin out some suggestions.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by dan2286

Is there any way to actually test how coolant is flowing through the engine ........

If it's flowing through the radiator, it will be flowing through the engine.

Radiator flow can be checked by running the engine, with the cap removed, and looking into the opening. Whether the coolant is moving, or not, will be obvious. Judging whether the flow is adequate, is best left to someone with some experience, in that area.

My advice, in post #67 applies.

Originally Posted by dan2286

to try to find blockages without having to tear the engine apart? ........

No need to go into the engine, unless the diagnosis points in that direction and it has been verified. The chemical test, I mentioned in post #67 is how it is verified.

Originally Posted by dan2286

........ Is it possible the thermostat is staying open at all times ........

OP said he tested his 160° and it worked. However, if it did stay open, it would have the same effect (it would never get up to operating temp) as no thermostat at all.

Originally Posted by dan2286

........ and not giving the coolant a chance to absorb heat from the engine? ........

Another Wives tale/Internet Myth.

Originally Posted by dan2286

........ Have you measured the inlet and outlet temps ........

If both hoses are the same temp, there is a flow (air or liquid) problem. If the lower hose is substantially cooler, there is no problem.

Originally Posted by dan2286

........ just throwin out some suggestions.

Your thoughtful questions are a welcome change.

Norm

[Warhead]

It would be wise to listen to Norm, however painfull the answer may be. Do not let your ego be attacked, just your thought process. Stubborness is NOT a good thing.

Electric water pump?
Any corrosion in the Aluminum radiator? How many miles on it?
HAVE IT CHECKED.
JMO JIM

[dan2286]

Originally Posted by Warhead

It would be wise to listen to Norm, however painfull the answer may be. Do not let your ego be attacked, just your thought process. Stubborness is NOT a good thing.

Electric water pump?
Any corrosion in the Aluminum radiator? How many miles on it?
HAVE IT CHECKED.
JMO JIM

I know, if I let my ego get attacked, I would not gain any type of knowledge from these forums.