I am officially tired of screwing around, various fluids are seeping, oozing, and dripping out of various areas and I have been itching to try a tear down. This will be my first rebuild so I'm looking for a quick info-bath. What's the usual rundown with rebuild kits? I want it to be very quick on the street.

I had been looking at Summit and Northern Auto Parts. Is there anywhere else better? I have heard about places upgrading certain parts in the kit, but I guess I would have to call to get anything like that?

My searching has lead me to the following:

Forged pistons = GOOD! (T/F?)

Flat Top pistons = too High of Compression for pump gas 10(+):1 + VERY $$$$
(T/F? , the only ones i could find were Keith Black and SRS )

Good CP ration = 9.6-9.8 (T/F?)

Roller rockers = No noticable diference + Very $$$$
(any opinions/experience?)

New cam and lifters = better to buy as their own kit separate from engine kit
( ??? open to sugestions, I have heard Comp Cam and Ultradyne mentioned, should I be looking for something specific)

Rings and gaskets = all the same just make sure they are right size
(T/F?)

I'm also decided on swapping my Intake Manifold as per 70Wcars sugestion to a stock 70-72 cast iron with hot air choke and no EGR. (which I'm still looking for btw). I would like an aluminum intake but I can't find one that would work with an OAI hood and hot air choke.

WHEW! So what do you guys think?

 

More important than the parts that you put in the engine is the machine work you have done to it. If you put a radical roller cam into an engine that hasn't been rebuilt then you are asking for trouble.

Summit seems to have good prices. You might check out JEGS and PAW as well.

As far as pistons go, I would suggest the forged TRW L2323F pistons. I put those in my engine and Oldsguy has them in his as well. They are decently priced and will give you a decent compression ratio depending on what you do to the heads (9.2-9.5).

I wouldn't suggest buying full roller rockers unless you are building a racing engine. You can buy a set of roller tip rocker arms for about $300. This seems to be a decent deal because you would spend about $100 on all new parts for a stock valve train. I am currently considering buying the Comp cam roller tip rocker set. Check it out on Summit.

 

Roger's Automotive:

1389 N. US Highway 89
Chino Valley, AZ 86323
(928) 636-9590

Norm

 

I have read alot about the importance of machine shops, but what is so important that machine shop will do? My understanding is that they mainly check for cracks (magnaflux) and check the cylinders for concentricity (bore and hone them if needed).Is there something I am missing As long I measure the cylinders and it doesn't need to be bored-over can't i just hone them a myself and cross my fingers for cracks? LOL if its gonna blow up I might as well be there to see it, right!? Even if I did take it in I'm not sure i would trust their work. There are A LOT of "Slick-Rick's" type auto shops around here, one time a friend wanted his car painted and found these guys that had set up shop painting cars in a swap-meet parking lot, they had tent awnings set up to shade the cars from the sun while they dried!!!

I read somewhere that TRW's are really heavy, but admittedly it could have been competitors marketing hype.

err...sorry those are actually what i wanted to know about

Thanks, I'll check out PAW. i hadn't heard of them. jegs didn't seem to have much though.

88coupe-
would that be a parts source or a whole shi-bang type of place?

 

Machine Shops---it's not so easy...they can screw things up just as well as any other kind of shop/business can screw up. So..it MATTERS. Sloppy work, sloppy clearances, crappy equipment, etc. Proper clearances are probably the most important part of your rebuild

TRW's--Yes, they are heavy...not just a rumor. BUT...this is not the fairest statement as they are pretty much the most basic or entry-level forged type piston out there. Most everything else forged costs MORE and, naturally, are lighter. Does this mean TRW's are junk??? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Think about how many thousands of sets of these are out there being run...or ten's of thousands. They are a great, reasonably priced forged piston. They aren't going to make you go slower if that's what you're worried about. The added durability being a forged piece is nice with today's crappy gas. Again, plenty of these cars are running some VERY FAST TIMES and making darn good HP using these pistons.

NOTE!!!! I would suggest you do some REAL RESEARCH, however, before deciding on the clearances to use with the TRW Forged Pistons. There are a lot of racers, street cars, machinists, etc that strongly suggest, at least for Olds's, you should do two things before installing the TRW's

1)Check the piston pin clearance on the new pistons...usually it is too tight

2)Use a looser piston-to-cylinder wall clearance than what the manufacturer tells you.

Many respected Oldsmobile builders have stated that these clearances should be run a little looser or you will run into heat and galling problems in the pin and piston skirts.

Just a fair word of warning.

Offhand I can't recall the TRW suggested clearances and the alternative suggested clearances. Maybe someone else here knows. Roughly, lets say TRW calls for something like .002 wall clearance..the opinions I have read say run .004-.005..this is just an example. Don't recall on the pin clearances.

The pistons themselves are good pieces and worth buying.

 

When I rebuilt my 350, i used a northern kit, they have great prices. I was able to upgrade my cam at very little cost, and i was able to add lots of parts to my order for cheap. They have great customer service, and ship quickly. I would highly recommend them. Also i bored my 350 20 over. I honed each cylinder to make sure I had a 20 thousands ring end gap, i wanted to go for 15, but it was just to damn tight. I didnt need to grind the crank, so i left it. It runs perfect, its got nothing but horsepower, and it has 55 pounds of oil pressure at startup. All I can say to you, is dont get in a hurry. Hope this might help a bit

 

You haven't mentioned the machine shop checking the crank...
How many miles on the engine? They might need to turn it.

And no matter what you do, bring the cam to a machine shop once you get it.
Have them put it on the table and confirm all the measurements!
I've never had a bad cam but I've seen dozens that were WAY off...

 

Just to add to the good info above, I would definitely get forged pistons. The TRW/Speed Pro/Sealed Power units are fine for the street. The advertised 10.5:1 pistons actually have about a 6 cc dish in them. When combined with the FelPro composition head gaskets (0.040" compressed height) and real as-cast cylinder heads (usually 83-84 cc instead of the advertised 80 cc), you will end up with about 9.5 - 9.75 CR. That's about the most you'd want to run on today's gasoline.

Be sure to use big valves in the heads. Pick a modern dual pattern cam that is matched for the driving you plan to do. I'm not sure why you want a cast iron intake. If you're doing all this work, get a good dual plane aluminum intake. I'm also a big fan of headers unless you want the stock look of manifolds.

 

Norm

 

I was thinking the same thing as Joe. If you are going to use a stock intake manifold then you should probably build the engine basically stock. No need for roller tip rockers, headers, radical cam, etc.

 

Yeah as far as keeping it stock, I'm starting with a '73 455 block in a '70 cutlass, so I kinda feel like that ship has sailed. I would much rather it "go fast" then be "correct". I am leaning towards the cast manifold because I heard that the '70-'72 manifolds flowed better than whats on there now (a cast '73 with the EGR), and I am definately going to get an OAI hood (at some point) because they look SO sexy. I was looking at the edelbrock aluminum manifolds but they all require a carb w/ manual/electronic choke and the only one that fit with an OAI hood is the old O4B which is REALLY tough to find.

The pistons Joe is described sounds like what I want , but I guess I will just have to call around and see if Summit or Northern Auto Parts has them. Anyone know a model number?

I was originally looking at this kit from summit which is cheaper:
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...=128&N=700+115

but am now leaning towards this one from Northern which includes a CAM, Lifters and Timing parts:
http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...ctModelId=2353

Northern also has the roller tip rocker arms:
http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...tModelId=11734

which claim "15 to 30 horsepower direct bolt on..." rrrright... well it can't hurt to try em eh?

I'm still not too sure what type of cam shaft specs would be best for my purposes, any suggestions?

Also if I try the roller tip rocker arms, are there any other head parts that commonly need replacing(ie. valves, springs, or some part i've never heard of)?

Thanks for all the input guys!

 

I suggest you hold out until you find an O4B intake on Evil-bay. You might also find one here on ClassicOlds. If it is the only intake you can run with the ram air hood then it would be a worthy investment. Don't worry too much about having to change the choke on your carburetor to accomodate an intake. An electric choke generally works more reliably than a hot air choke anyways. I do know the O4B is a good intake. Oldsguy had one in his 69 Delta 88. I think we picked it up for about $80. The only problem is that you can't run HEI with it. However, you can convert the distributor to variable reluctance with a Pertronix kit.

 

Two things to be aware of in your search for the O4B. First, they do not clear HEI distributors. Second, the O4B came in two flavors - spread bore and square bore. Be sure to get the one that matches your carb since the square bore to Qjet adapter is both restrictive and defeats the purpose of getting a lower intake.

I like roller rockers, but understand that unless you get the Harlan Sharp shaft mounted units that lock together in pairs, you will need to machine your heads for larger diameter studs and pushrod guide plates. The guide plates require hardened pushrods as well.

 

Joe, doesn't Comp Cams make a kit of "roller tip" rockers that bolt directly onto the Oldsmobile heads? I have heard they are a decent investment. Even though they aren't "full roller rockers."

 

Yes they do, I installed these on a 455 that I sold to build my current 455. The kit comes with steel roller rockers, New studs that screw into the existing stud holes, guide plates, and hardened pushrods. The person I sold the engine to says they worked great.

 

Is this the kit you guys are speaking of? http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...tModelId=14818

Well since the difference isn't jumping out at me, I'll just ask... what would a full roller rocker be?

Going back to the Manifold - O4B not fitting with HEI is kinda a big issue as my engine already has HEI. (I wanna say '73 was first year they came from factory with them) I like my HEI, HEI is good. Just to be complete, Mondello does sell an intake that looks just like stock olds intake but is made from aluminum. (A repro of the W-30 manifolds maybe?) However the $799 price tag makes that option dead to me. And I hear alot of "avoid mondello like the plague" reviews which does not burgeon a desire to fork over copius amounts of money to them.

HOLD THE PHONE!-- Look what just I found:
From 442.com:

"Using with OAI
You can use the OAI air cleaner on the Edelbrock Performer intake. My fellow Oldsmobile Street Rockets are currently using this configuration. The secret is to take the OAI lid with the functional door, turn it upside down and remove the rubber seal thats connects to the air cleaner base. If you remove the rubber, it gives you about and inch to inch and half clearance. Thats just right for a HEI distributor and the Performer intake."
Think that would actually work?

 

That is awsome! Hopefully that would work with the hood and Edelbrock Performer. I am not sure one way or the other. I am sure someone will chime in.

Here are full rollers.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku

Here are roller tip rockers.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...T&autoview=sku

The full rollers have needle bearings in the fulcrum and a roller bearing on the tip. The roller tip rockers only have the bearing on the tip.

 

Roger's Automotive in Chino Valley AZ. is an OLDS guru. You have any questions he is the place to go.
I would say forged pistons, you need to make sure you have .005 piston to cyl wall clearence. Also .001 piston pin to piston clearence. If you use the KB pistons you can use less clearence but make sure you file fit the rings plus the weigh less.
Machine work is very important. Cyl hone for fit, align hone the mains and resize the rods for correct fit.
I would not use a Comp-cams off the shelf cam. Engle, Lunati, even an Edelbrock cam klit are very very good choice. I would use an 204/214 or 214/224 @.050 cam or something in that area.

Geno....

 

What are your differential gears, and your expected RPM's?
THIS should dictate the level of your build.
If you have 2.73's, I am sure a realistic engine max speed of 5000 rpm's would be your maximum engine speed (it's not like the heads will let you make any more power above that engine speed ANYWAY).
That said, cast pistons, stock rods, reconditioned cast crank (I like at least .0035 on the mains) upgraded oil pump and pan, factory rockers, and a hyd cam will be fine.
With proper tuning, it will be faster than you would ever expect.

 

Hello I'm new to this website , but it seems like a place for me.I am an olds guy by heart but have been out of the game for 20+ years. I recently came across a 1965 f85 none post 2 door hardtop. Its relativly clean and seems sound originally a nevada car and I'm paying $3200.00 It does run. 330cid Does this sound like a good price?

 

Going back to the Manifold - O4B not fitting with HEI is kinda a big issue as my engine already has HEI. (I wanna say '73 was first year they came from factory with them) I like my HEI, HEI is good.

Why not use an OEM dizzy and pertronix setup with the O4B

 

If the OEM distributor is a non-HEI type it will work, even then, you may lose about 5 to 10 degrees of rotation due to interference from the vacuum advance cannister butting against that right rear runner (which is why the HEI distributor wont' work, it is just too big). I used an O4B for quite a few years without any troubles.

 

Far be it for me to question the above wisdom(and I am not) but I had a look at my O4B today and there are 8 holes -threaded-- for carb fixing.The inner 4 (smaller square if you like, takes the qjet ) The 4 outer holes ,approx 1/4 " out from each inner hole is for ??? sort of carburettor.
I am unsure if these holes were drilled n tapped later or are part of the original manifold design
mike

 

Holly carb