425 Cam Selection - Need Advice

ijasond · 01-18-2008, 06:58 PM

I'm building a 425 High Compression engine for my 66 Delta 88. Everything is going back pretty much stock with the exception of the exhaust which will breathe a little better. When doing this, can I install a mild cam without changing anything else? This car will never see a strip, only the car shows, the street & an occasional traffic light show off. I really just want it to have a more aggressive sound & idle, I'm not too concerned with high performance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Olds64 · 01-19-2008, 09:46 AM

Since you have a 425 from a 66 Delta 88 you have the normal .842" lifters. You should be able to get an aftermarket cam easily for your engine. Check out the following website for some good choices.

http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/

joe_padavano · 01-19-2008, 10:34 AM

Be sure you know which lifter bank angle (39 deg or 45 deg) you have BEFORE you order a cam.

Oldsmaniac · 01-19-2008, 02:03 PM

If your engine is original, there is about a 99% chance its the 45 degree lifter angle....much harder to find a cam for but they are avaiable.

ijasond · 01-19-2008, 07:03 PM

Thanks, you probably just saved me alot of headache there. After reading around on this site, I see I wouldn't have been the first to make that mistake.

ijasond · 01-19-2008, 09:32 PM

i went to supercarsunlimited.com & they only list OE replacements for cutlass/442. They don't have anything listed for a 425 or any higher performance parts. Am I missing something?

Olds64 · 01-21-2008, 06:12 AM

I am sorry. I forgot that Supercars only carries factory replacement cams. Try the following websites.

http://www.summitracing.com/
http://www.jegs.com/
http://www.mondellotwister.com/index.htm

ijasond · 01-21-2008, 11:55 AM

I just checked & I do have the 45 degree bank with the .842 lifters.
Thanks for stopping me before I screwed something up.
As much as I enjoy hanging out with friends & working on cars, I wouldn't want to stand around with them for hours listening to everyone giving me different reasons why the timing is off.

ijasond · 01-21-2008, 01:48 PM

I've been looking around, and so far Crane seems to be the only company that knows the 39 45 olds angles.

Oldsguy · 01-21-2008, 02:37 PM

http://www.ultradyne.com/

ijasond · 01-28-2008, 07:34 PM

Thanks for all your input. I called some of the places that you guys suggested & the guys over at Mondello were the most helpful (or at least the most eager to sell me some parts). I ordered the cam & lifters from them today. I'll post again to let you know how it works out when I get this thing running. It will probably be a couple of weeks.
Mondello cam JM-22-25-10
lifters 555-H

ijasond · 05-08-2008, 05:41 PM

I've finally got the 425 all back together, in the car & running. It's beautiful, but the timing is not right. After trying for a while, I'm starting to worry that there is a camshaft problem. What exactly would the symptoms be if the cam were the wrong one? I was 100% certain that I had the 45 degree bank angle when I ordered the cam, but I guess there is always the possibility that Mondello sent me the wrong one.

J-(Chicago) · 05-08-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

I guess there is always the possibility that Mondello sent me the wrong one.

Very probable.
When they do get the parts right, they usually come all scratched/biffed up. If/when you send it back, they will say they can't do anything because you damaged it.
I hate ordering anything from there. Stay away. If you do have a timing problem, I also suggest that you refrain from buying one of their 50 dollar timing tabs

59-59-59 · 05-08-2008, 10:24 PM

Mondello is known to put their names on other parts..Order a piston set from them and you will find out that it is a set of Keith Black pistons. I wouldnt be surprised if they do the same thing with camshafts. I wish I read your post months ago and I could of saved you a couple of $$$. You could of had a custom cam ground to your specs and had better results - and probably for less money too

Oldsmaniac · 05-09-2008, 05:06 AM

Fill us in on what makes you think the timing is not right...that is kinda vague...what is the engine doing....how does it run?

Rallye469 · 05-09-2008, 05:23 AM

2 things...
(I first read this post thinking it was new...)
Yeah, Mondello can be a pain. I had a bunch of orders screwed up.
I was gonna say check everything thoroughly before install.
Like take the cam down to a machine shop and have them measure everything.

The second is...that's pretty stout cam. 108 LSA is not what you were looking
for IF you wanted just a hair above stock for an agressive idle.
What's stock lift in a 66 425? About .468"
Your new cam has .520.
Your valve geometry may be on the ragged edge of misalignment.
Your not going to be pulling as much vacuum as you were.

That cam has the potential to run low 12's in a 425.
I don't think it was the right choice.

-Sorry, I know you didn't want to hear this opinion...
And someone correct me if they disagree.

ijasond · 05-09-2008, 08:54 AM

The first thing I did was check that #1 cylinder was at TDC & the distributor matched. Then I idled it up to about 1000 rpm with the vacuum line removed & adjusted the distributor until the motor ran as smooth as possible. When I put the light on it, it showed that it was 6 degrees off. If i adjust the distributor to get the timing to 0, it runs rough, gets rougher, backfires through the carb. At this point it idles back up momentarily, then does the same thing again. It definitely runs best at higher rpms. When I drive it, it starts out feeling like it lacks power, then picks up as the speed increases. The car is basically a rolling chassis, so I can only test it out in the parking lot. When you rev it in neutral, it actually sounds really good.
I'm now thinking that the cam is ok, & that maybe the 3 key timing gear was installed on the retarded setting. Would that explain the 6 degrees & the symptoms I'm experiencing?
I think I'm going to pull the timing cover off & check it to be sure, unless anyone has another suggestion to try first.

ijasond · 05-09-2008, 09:01 AM

As far as the cam selection, I pretty much relied on the information they gave me to make the selection. I told them I was running a stock motor with the exception of adding dual exhaust & that I simply wanted to give it a more aggressive idle/sound. Then I went with his recommendation. This is my first engine build, I got some help on the assembly, but basically did everything based on the information I gathered from several sources, including this one. Can I make it work? Shouldn't I still be able to get some power out of this thing?

Rallye469 · 05-09-2008, 09:33 AM

Yes. It will definitely make power...
It just seems pretty big for what you originally stated you wanted.

What gears & converter were you planning on using?

A heavy car with highway gears and that cam isn't optimal.

Where's Norm when you need him?
I'd like his take...

Oldsguy · 05-09-2008, 09:50 AM

He won't recommend one, remember?

Quote:

That "among other things" thing, is why I don't make cam suggestions in forums.

Oldsmaniac · 05-09-2008, 10:05 AM

I am not following your timing method.....with a timing light you need to adjust dist. for advance with the engine running not zero. You install dist. at zero TDC compression stroke on #1 cylinder. You will need to advance the timing as much as possible without having the engine ping for better engine output. I dont know cam specs. but if they are what were posted that is a lot of cam for a stock engine...a cam like that needs a lower rear end gear and a higher stall torque converter. The trouble you say when driving about starting out with no power then the engine picking up some is typical performance with a big cam in a stock engine....poor driveabilty.

Warhead · 05-09-2008, 04:47 PM

Wow. Why would you EVER want ign timing at 0?
You need ignition advance.
That needs to have 36-38 degrees advance (no more than that) by 3000 rpm, with vacuum advance off. Put a mark on the BALANCER 2.009 inches to the right of the factory mark. Run the engine up to 3000 rpm and advance distributor until you line up the new mark with the 0 on the pointer.
***Make sure the engine does not try to advance more at a higher rpm, you need to keep a limit of full advance to 38 max.
***After this step, you need to purchase the best fuel you can find, or back down timing until it does not ping anymore!!!

88 coupe · 05-10-2008, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ I really just want it to have a more aggressive sound & idle, I'm not too concerned with high performance ........

Calls for a highly subjective opinion. It's why I did not comment, the first time around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ Mondello cam JM-22-25-10 ........

Similar to my Isky 280 Mega. If I was looking for an “aggressive” idle, instead of a specific power output, I would have stepped up to the (12º more duration, .050" less lift) 292.

But then, everyone here will have different perceptions of “aggressive”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ What exactly would the symptoms be if the cam were the wrong one? ........

Engine would have noticeably less power than before the rebuild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 59-59-59

Mondello is known to put their names on other parts ........

Should be an Engle cam with a Mondello part number..

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ I guess there is always the possibility that Mondello sent me the wrong one.

Always a possibility with any vendor. It's why one must always check any/all parts, before installing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... Like take the cam down to a machine shop and have them measure everything ........

One of the “hidden benefits” of buying from the machine shop = The “checking” will be done on their dime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... 108 LSA is not what you were looking
for ........

Not a 108.

The -10 after the JM-22-25 (108º) makes it JM-22-25-10 (110º). For his application/goal, it wouldn't make any difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... IF you wanted just a hair above stock for an agressive idle ........

He did not say anything about “a hair”. Black, brown, or blond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... What's stock lift in a 66 425? ........

Nothing to do with the topic. Unlike duration/overlap, lift will not help him to reach his goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ I really just want it to have a more aggressive sound & idle, I'm not too concerned with high performance ........

Assuming, a real time conversation with Mondello, I would think they understood his desire/goal, far better than anyone using this venue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... Your valve geometry may be on the ragged edge of misalignment ........

.
Not even close. .584” was not ideal, but it was not a problem.

I believe someone else, on this board, has gone higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... Your not going to be pulling as much vacuum as you were ........

.
That is a given. I would bet that vacuum was discussed during that conversation with the Mondello tech.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... That cam has the potential to run low 12's in a 425 ........

At least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

......... I don't think it was the right choice ........

As I recently found out, opinions are what discussion forums are all about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

.........And someone correct me if they disagree.

And disagreements lead to discussions, which (in theory) lead to the dissemination of factual information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ I pretty much relied on the information they gave me ........

And that information was based on your input. All he/she did was choose (from the catalog) the profile that (in his/her opinion) fit your input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ stock motor with the exception of adding dual exhaust & that I simply wanted to give it a more aggressive idle/sound ........

That is exactly what you have. If it's not “aggressive” enough I have a, low mileage, JM-25-28 you can have, for the cost of shipping from 90012.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijasond

........ Can I make it work? ........

With a recurved distributor that matches your combination, it will work fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallye469

........ It just seems pretty big for what you originally stated you wanted ........

He has not complained that the idle is too “aggressive”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

He won't recommend one, remember?

No need to. He already made his choice. I just dropped by to see who I can pizz off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhead

........ You need ignition advance.
That needs to have 36-38 degrees advance (no more than that) by 3000 rpm ........

What he said. ↑

Once you've found the optimum total, you can experiment with initial settings to find the “idle” you want.

Less advance = more radical idle = slower throttle response.
More advance = smoother idle = quicker throttle response.

Once you have both numbers, the advance “curve” needs to be modified, to meet (without the vacuum advance) your new requirements. Look for a “tune up” guy that has a Sun distributor machine.

Norm

Rallye469 · 05-10-2008, 06:20 AM

Well, the above is just what I asked for...

Quote:

And disagreements lead to discussions, which (in theory) lead to the dissemination of factual information.

Exactly.
I 'read into' his desire for a more aggressive idle as more
then just an aggressive idle. I thought it was the desire to just step
it up over stock in both sound and performance but err on the side
of drivability over all out speed.

Maybe I read into it wrong.
So Norm, you're saying this will fill the bill perfectly...when
it comes to him choosing a cam for the sound it provides...?
OK.
But I still think without proper gearing and converter he won't be happy
driving around with this cam installed.<

01-18-2008, 06:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	425 Cam Selection - Need Advice I'm building a 425 High Compression engine for my 66 Delta 88. Everything is going back pretty much stock with the exception of the exhaust which will breathe a little better. When doing this, can I install a mild cam without changing anything else? This car will never see a strip, only the car shows, the street & an occasional traffic light show off. I really just want it to have a more aggressive sound & idle, I'm not too concerned with high performance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

01-19-2008, 09:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
Olds64 Landyacht Club President Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lawton, OK Posts: 1,088	Since you have a 425 from a 66 Delta 88 you have the normal .842" lifters. You should be able to get an aftermarket cam easily for your engine. Check out the following website for some good choices. http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/ __________________ "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics. My father was an OLDSMOBILE man." Ralphie Billingsley A Christmas Story 1983 "We rei-eign, supreme, ooooh god! Burrito supreme, and a chicken supreme, and a CUTLASS SUPREME!" Tenacious D 2007

01-19-2008, 10:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
joe_padavano Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern VA Posts: 1,162	Be sure you know which lifter bank angle (39 deg or 45 deg) you have BEFORE you order a cam. __________________ Joe Padavano 64 Jetstar 88 Conv 66 442 L-69 Conv 68 W-30 69 H/O 69 442 70 W-30 72 442 86 Caprice wagon (w/307 Olds)

01-19-2008, 02:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
Oldsmaniac Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 350	If your engine is original, there is about a 99% chance its the 45 degree lifter angle....much harder to find a cam for but they are avaiable. __________________ OCA Member 2587 '59 98 conv. '66 Starfire '66 Delta Fact.4spd '66 Delta conv. times 2 '67 442 conv. '68 Cutlass conv. '70 Rallye 350 '92 Custom Cruiser

01-21-2008, 06:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
Olds64 Landyacht Club President Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lawton, OK Posts: 1,088	I am sorry. I forgot that Supercars only carries factory replacement cams. Try the following websites. http://www.summitracing.com/ http://www.jegs.com/ http://www.mondellotwister.com/index.htm __________________ "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics. My father was an OLDSMOBILE man." Ralphie Billingsley A Christmas Story 1983 "We rei-eign, supreme, ooooh god! Burrito supreme, and a chicken supreme, and a CUTLASS SUPREME!" Tenacious D 2007

01-19-2008, 07:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	Thanks, you probably just saved me alot of headache there. After reading around on this site, I see I wouldn't have been the first to make that mistake.

01-19-2008, 09:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	i went to supercarsunlimited.com & they only list OE replacements for cutlass/442. They don't have anything listed for a 425 or any higher performance parts. Am I missing something?

01-21-2008, 11:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	I just checked & I do have the 45 degree bank with the .842 lifters. Thanks for stopping me before I screwed something up. As much as I enjoy hanging out with friends & working on cars, I wouldn't want to stand around with them for hours listening to everyone giving me different reasons why the timing is off.

01-21-2008, 01:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	I've been looking around, and so far Crane seems to be the only company that knows the 39 45 olds angles.

01-21-2008, 02:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
Oldsguy Administrator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Lees Summit MO Posts: 2,553	http://www.ultradyne.com/ __________________ Dan '46 2 door

01-28-2008, 07:34 PM	#11 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	Thanks for all your input. I called some of the places that you guys suggested & the guys over at Mondello were the most helpful (or at least the most eager to sell me some parts). I ordered the cam & lifters from them today. I'll post again to let you know how it works out when I get this thing running. It will probably be a couple of weeks. Mondello cam JM-22-25-10 lifters 555-H

05-08-2008, 05:41 PM	#12 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	I've finally got the 425 all back together, in the car & running. It's beautiful, but the timing is not right. After trying for a while, I'm starting to worry that there is a camshaft problem. What exactly would the symptoms be if the cam were the wrong one? I was 100% certain that I had the 45 degree bank angle when I ordered the cam, but I guess there is always the possibility that Mondello sent me the wrong one.

05-08-2008, 10:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
59-59-59 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 115	Mondello is known to put their names on other parts..Order a piston set from them and you will find out that it is a set of Keith Black pistons. I wouldnt be surprised if they do the same thing with camshafts. I wish I read your post months ago and I could of saved you a couple of $$$. You could of had a custom cam ground to your specs and had better results - and probably for less money too

05-09-2008, 05:06 AM	#15 (permalink)
Oldsmaniac Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 350	Fill us in on what makes you think the timing is not right...that is kinda vague...what is the engine doing....how does it run? __________________ OCA Member 2587 '59 98 conv. '66 Starfire '66 Delta Fact.4spd '66 Delta conv. times 2 '67 442 conv. '68 Cutlass conv. '70 Rallye 350 '92 Custom Cruiser

05-09-2008, 05:23 AM	#16 (permalink)
Rallye469 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 182	2 things... (I first read this post thinking it was new...) Yeah, Mondello can be a pain. I had a bunch of orders screwed up. I was gonna say check everything thoroughly before install. Like take the cam down to a machine shop and have them measure everything. The second is...that's pretty stout cam. 108 LSA is not what you were looking for IF you wanted just a hair above stock for an agressive idle. What's stock lift in a 66 425? About .468" Your new cam has .520. Your valve geometry may be on the ragged edge of misalignment. Your not going to be pulling as much vacuum as you were. That cam has the potential to run low 12's in a 425. I don't think it was the right choice. -Sorry, I know you didn't want to hear this opinion... And someone correct me if they disagree. __________________ '70 Rallye 350 '65 F-85 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCw-JmwNGZQ

05-09-2008, 08:54 AM	#17 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	The first thing I did was check that #1 cylinder was at TDC & the distributor matched. Then I idled it up to about 1000 rpm with the vacuum line removed & adjusted the distributor until the motor ran as smooth as possible. When I put the light on it, it showed that it was 6 degrees off. If i adjust the distributor to get the timing to 0, it runs rough, gets rougher, backfires through the carb. At this point it idles back up momentarily, then does the same thing again. It definitely runs best at higher rpms. When I drive it, it starts out feeling like it lacks power, then picks up as the speed increases. The car is basically a rolling chassis, so I can only test it out in the parking lot. When you rev it in neutral, it actually sounds really good. I'm now thinking that the cam is ok, & that maybe the 3 key timing gear was installed on the retarded setting. Would that explain the 6 degrees & the symptoms I'm experiencing? I think I'm going to pull the timing cover off & check it to be sure, unless anyone has another suggestion to try first.

05-09-2008, 09:01 AM	#18 (permalink)
ijasond Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 82	As far as the cam selection, I pretty much relied on the information they gave me to make the selection. I told them I was running a stock motor with the exception of adding dual exhaust & that I simply wanted to give it a more aggressive idle/sound. Then I went with his recommendation. This is my first engine build, I got some help on the assembly, but basically did everything based on the information I gathered from several sources, including this one. Can I make it work? Shouldn't I still be able to get some power out of this thing?

05-09-2008, 09:33 AM	#19 (permalink)
Rallye469 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 182	Yes. It will definitely make power... It just seems pretty big for what you originally stated you wanted. What gears & converter were you planning on using? A heavy car with highway gears and that cam isn't optimal. Where's Norm when you need him? I'd like his take... __________________ '70 Rallye 350 '65 F-85 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCw-JmwNGZQ

05-09-2008, 10:05 AM	#21 (permalink)
Oldsmaniac Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 350	I am not following your timing method.....with a timing light you need to adjust dist. for advance with the engine running not zero. You install dist. at zero TDC compression stroke on #1 cylinder. You will need to advance the timing as much as possible without having the engine ping for better engine output. I dont know cam specs. but if they are what were posted that is a lot of cam for a stock engine...a cam like that needs a lower rear end gear and a higher stall torque converter. The trouble you say when driving about starting out with no power then the engine picking up some is typical performance with a big cam in a stock engine....poor driveabilty. __________________ OCA Member 2587 '59 98 conv. '66 Starfire '66 Delta Fact.4spd '66 Delta conv. times 2 '67 442 conv. '68 Cutlass conv. '70 Rallye 350 '92 Custom Cruiser

05-09-2008, 04:47 PM	#22 (permalink)
Warhead Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 64	Wow. Why would you EVER want ign timing at 0? You need ignition advance. That needs to have 36-38 degrees advance (no more than that) by 3000 rpm, with vacuum advance off. Put a mark on the BALANCER 2.009 inches to the right of the factory mark. Run the engine up to 3000 rpm and advance distributor until you line up the new mark with the 0 on the pointer. *Make sure the engine does not try to advance more at a higher rpm, you need to keep a limit of full advance to 38 max. *After this step, you need to purchase the best fuel you can find, or back down timing until it does not ping anymore!!!