newbie question on 455's..

[buddiiee]

Hello guys. Im here again for my buddy. (his computer isnt working right now)
He has a 70 cutlass, with a '72 455 olds in it. He just knocked a rod thru his oil pan, and is going to rebuild it. I told him, to stick to as close as factory as you can. they're a proven design that works, and that, when not too wildly modified, are easy to get support from, from boards like these.

My question is, where can I find a site, or book, that shows every part number for the 455 that was in the 70 442. I'm trying to recreate the engine that had '365 bhp @ 5000 rpm, 500 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm'. Well, that's my goal anyway. Can these parts be had anymore? If not, does anyone reproduce these parts? I'm lookin for the heads, cam, crank, and intake. Also, what was the factory cfm on the carb. On those rare heads you guys have, the hi flow versions. are they soo desireable, because theyre stock? im guessing theyre going to cost a pretty penny. are there any aftermarket heads that flow just as nice, but cheaper, because theyre production?

My other question is, where there any physical differences in blocks, between the 70 and the say, 72 for example? (besides nickel content)

And what about main caps. Is there any billet steel mains available for these engines? Thanks for any help guys.

[Olds64]

I don't know of any specific book that lists ALL the part numbers for an Oldsmobile for a given year. If I were in your friend's shoes I would just rebuild the engine that he damaged (if it can be rebuilt).

Don't forget that the factory HP and torque numbers weren't much more than advertising. I am not sure how Oldsmobile calculated them; however, most people here will warn you to be wary of those numbers.

I suggest you just rebuild the engine in the car with a stock rebuild kit. You might want to put higher compression pistons and a mild aftermarket cam in it.

As far as heads go, the best factory heads you can get for a 455 are either E castings (I have heard they are quite rare), or C castings (easily found on most older full sized Oldsmobiles). Truth be told, I have heard that all of the BBO heads flowed pretty well except the Js. And supposedley they only fall off at about 3500 rpm.

You can get aftermarket Edelbrock heads for your BBO. I haven't heard anything spectacular about them though; aside from the fact that they are overpriced for a street car.

Finally, I haven't heard of aftermarket maincaps for an Oldsmobile. You won't even have to worry about that if you are just building a stock or mild street engine.

[buddiiee]

We do plan on rebuilding the engine that he damaged.. if we can. though, if rods are flyin out the oil pan, im fairly certain, the crank journal, and the cylinder walls are pretty scored beyond repair. We'll see when we yank it. And factory numbers were just advertising? I thought it was universally accepted that those numbers were lower than what was actually being put out. I know in the buick world it is.
And you guys dont use billet steel main caps on your engines? I didnt know that. Though I'm not sure the phrase "You won't even have to worry about that if you are just building a stock or mild street engine." applies anymore.. as there is a rod sticking out of his oil pan as we speak lol. Obviously you guys need to worry about it lol.

[Olds64]

I don't know of any aftermarket supplier that provides billet main caps for Oldsmobiles. Eventhough your friend threw a rod he should still be able to replace the crank and damaged rods. He can also sleeve the damaged cylinders. It takes pretty heavy damage to make a block completely unusable. I can't imagine how your friend threw a rod on a stock engine though. Maybe over revving. Stock Olds big blocks don't like to turn more than 4000 rpms.

[J-(Chicago)]

I have sprayed rods through the oil pans on Chevy, Ford, and Olds.
Centrifugal force happens.
Once you hear a knock, it's time to shut it down for good and disassemble.
Unless of course you are in the middle of dirt track racing.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ We'll see when we yank it ........

That would be the most logical place to start.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ I thought it was universally accepted that those numbers were lower ........

Urban legend. There is no documentation to back it up.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ I know in the buick world it is ........

Same urban legend.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ you guys dont use billet steel main caps ........

At your power level, there is no reason to.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ I didnt know that ........

Obviously.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ as there is a rod sticking out of his oil pan as we speak ........

And you do not know why.

If it was a 455 Buick, we would already know the cause.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ Obviously you guys need to worry about it ........

If it ever happens to me, I will make up a set of "billet steel" rod caps, so it will not happen again.

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by J-(Chicago)

I have sprayed rods through the oil pans on ........

Wouldn't have happened if you had used "billet" main caps.

Norm

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by buddiiee

Hello guys. Im here again for my buddy. (his computer isnt working right now)
He has a 70 cutlass, with a '72 455 olds in it. He just knocked a rod thru his oil pan, and is going to rebuild it. I told him, to stick to as close as factory as you can. they're a proven design that works, and that, when not too wildly modified, are easy to get support from, from boards like these.

My question is, where can I find a site, or book, that shows every part number for the 455 that was in the 70 442. I'm trying to recreate the engine that had '365 bhp @ 5000 rpm, 500 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm'. Well, that's my goal anyway. Can these parts be had anymore? If not, does anyone reproduce these parts? I'm lookin for the heads, cam, crank, and intake. Also, what was the factory cfm on the carb. On those rare heads you guys have, the hi flow versions. are they soo desireable, because theyre stock? im guessing theyre going to cost a pretty penny. are there any aftermarket heads that flow just as nice, but cheaper, because theyre production?

My other question is, where there any physical differences in blocks, between the 70 and the say, 72 for example? (besides nickel content)

And what about main caps. Is there any billet steel mains available for these engines? Thanks for any help guys.

First, the nickel content thing is an unproven urban myth. Don't worry about it. Second, the fundamental differences between the 70 and 72 455s are the pistons (higher compression for 70) and the cam profile. The 72 should have come with Ga heads. These have factory induction hardened valve seats but will have small 2.000" intakes unless the engine came from a W-30 or manual trans 442. You can have the heads cut for the 2.070" intakes, but you'll remove the hardened seats in the process. Aftermarket press-in seats will be required.

I'd recommend aftermarket forged pistons. Note that the advertised compression ratio of aftermarket pistons assumes the stock steel shim head gasket. The FelPro blue intakes have a thicker 0.040" compressed height and will lower CR about a quarter point. Similarly, the advertised CR assumes the blueprinted 80 cc chambers but big block heads run 83-84 cc as-cast. Taken together, these factors will reduce an advertised 10:1 forged piston to a more streetable 9.25 or so.

I'd also recommend an aftermarket dual pattern cam instead of the symmetric 70 cam.

[2blu442]

Hello Buddiiee
Obviously everyone on this site is an Olds nut! I agree with your idea of finding out from others what to use in a rebuild. It is too easy to put in high compression pistons and a lumpy cam that sound neat, but don't function well. One problem I've heard of more with Olds 455 powered boats is if the engine is over revved it will suck the oil pan dry. What I've heard is in stock form you don't want to run the Olds 455 much over 5,000 rpm. But the 1970 365 hp 455 you mentioned has the torque peak something like 3,600 rpm so there's no need to run it that high. I really like the Olds motors and the stump pulling torque they make. Once you guys get the engine tore down and identify what caused the failure please get back to us and let us know what you found. I believe under the Announcement section at the top of the site page you'll find a note about a performance book being reprinted. I bought a copy and have found a lot of interesting information in it. You can also visit the site 442.com and go to the FAQ section for more details on Oldsmobile engines. If you have time you can also read through the posts on the Big Block section of this site. Good Luck, and don't hesitate to come back with more questions. John

[buddiiee]

cool, thank you blu442.
And padavano, nickel content is an urban legend? Lol I learned it from your site. I surely hope, the administrator doesnt approve 'urban legends' for use as technical information on his own site.. lol. bad juju there guys. I'd confirm it, or take it down though you do have a good bit of info there. I will save that for future use, thanks. I was just curious about the strength between the years, because, if this block is indeed relatively rebuildable, I want to know if its worth it. Some engines, from some years are just TOTAL crap, and arent worth building ya know? I was just trying to find out if there was anything from '72 we should stay away from. Who knows, maybe that year, was full of recalls, from bad blocks. Just doin a little recon before we proceed with this project.

88 Coupe, the hp advertisements are urban legend? Try dynoing a '69 427 tri-power corvette, and see what it really puts out. Better yet a ZL-1 vette. get back to me with that. And yes, if he threw a rod once, were going to try and prevent that a 2nd time. With billet mains all the way down.
Olds64, the engine wasn't stock. He's an engineer, and go figure, he 'over engineered' the build, and it got too far outta hand. He threw too many parts at it, and the QC went out the window apparently lol. He had it started, and was warming it up. While he did that, he was under the hood revving it with the throttle, and bam! thunk thunk thunk. That was all she wrote.
If the block has to be sleeved, then Im going to try and steer him torwards a crate short block. Already done, and with a warranty as well. Having to rebore, and rebuild, from the ground up, an entire short block, will cost more than just buying one, due to the machine work plus parts and installation. If the block is good, I'm going to tell him, to just go ahead, and try re-create a stock '70 442 455 and be done with it. They run like bats outta hell, and are resonably reliable. Easy to tune, easy to work on, and more importantly, easy to get advice on, from places like this. The more you vary from stock, the trickier diagnosis or tuning can get. This guy doesn't need any more torque, than what a stock '70 455 can provide anyhow lol. I'm afraid he'll lose his license with that power.

So far, I find that the 72 blocks are adequate for a mild rebuild. And that most of the factory heads flow enough. Is this correct?

[J-(Chicago)]

I hope you get to the bottom of the failure. I do not believe that there were any ''garbage'' block years. I have heard of garbage setups in them, but hey that happens in everything. One mistake equals total failure of the system, unfortunately.

[Oldsguy]

The nickel content statement is fact, the legend part is that everyone needs one and it is better to have in your build.

"Big Block Functional Differences

For those seeking to build a really heavy-duty engine, rumor has it that the blocks with an "F5" or "F6" cast on the rear face, under the flexplate area, are higher in nickel, and stronger. These are commonly 1967 to 1970 or so 425 or 455 blocks"

[Olds64]

If you want to do a completely stock rebuild then just order one of these.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...115+4294870280

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by buddiiee

cool, thank you blu442.
And padavano, nickel content is an urban legend? Lol I learned it from your site. I surely hope, the administrator doesnt approve 'urban legends' for use as technical information on his own site.. lol. bad juju there guys.

"My site"??? I don't have a "site". If you're referring to the FAQs on 442.com, I wrote some of that, but by no means all of it. That FAQ is a compendium of posts to the old Chubecto Olds mailing list. There was almost no fact checking, the text was taken almost verbatum from posts. There are a number of errors in the FAQ and attempts to have them corrected by the owner of 442.com have not been successful.

88 Coupe, the hp advertisements are urban legend?

Norm is correct. You don't find it suspicious that with all the mods (radical cam, select fit parts, different carb calibration, different advance curve, outside air induction) that the 70 W-30 only put out five more horsepower than the run of the mill 455? Or was it maybe a fabricated number (370 HP) to stay within the 10 lb/hp mandate from GM brass, since the curb weight of a 70 442 was right at 3700 lbs?

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

The nickel content statement is fact ........

Until someone produces some documentation, it's just another internet myth.

........ blocks with an "F5" or "F6" cast on the rear face, under the flexplate area ........

They would be 1972 to 1976, or so.

........ These are commonly 1967 to 1970 or so 425 or 455 blocks"

They would be "F1" and "F2".

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 2blu442

........ if the engine is over revved it will suck the oil pan dry ........

Another myth.

Insufficient oil supply is caused by the "tight" clearances used by incompetent machine shops. Easier to use the generic "granny driver" crank kit, than to specify one that matches the application.

........ But the 1970 365 hp 455 you mentioned ........

Used a specially selected crankshaft/bearing combination, so it would not have that problem.

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ Try dynoing ........

Try posting like an adult.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ a '69 427 tri-power corvette ........

That would be the L71, which used three Holley 2 barrels. In the day, it was commonly called a “435 horse 427”.

No manufacturer (except Pontiac) ever used the name “Tri-Power”.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ were going to try and prevent that a 2nd time. With billet mains all the way down ........

I will make it more clear this time. How will “billet mains” keep the rods from “falling out”?

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ He's an engineer, and go figure, he 'over engineered' the build, and it got too far outta hand. He threw too many parts at it, and the QC went out the window apparently lol. He had it started, and was warming it up. While he did that, he was under the hood revving it with the throttle, and bam! thunk thunk thunk ........

And you do not know the cause of the problem?

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ 72 blocks are adequate for a mild rebuild. And that most of the factory heads flow enough. Is this correct?

Yes.

Norm

[buddiiee]

Thanks alot guys, good info here, keep it coming. And I was typing too fast, and not paying attention. What I meant to say was, I'm going to try and bulletproof his bottom end, by using quality rods, studding in the rod caps with arp studs (if it's possible) and studding in new main caps for the crankshaft. My mistake. I can sometimes type too fast for my brain. (the ptsd kickin in again.)
About the advertised power ratings.. I know some are way off. Some down for insurance and factory regulations, some up for sales. It's just thru your personal experience that you find out which was which, over the years. For example, our buicks were 10 off from the factory on both hp and tq, and about 3 tenths quicker in the quarter than advertised. I know it's not much, but it's padded nonetheless. The two fastest chevy 427's were also off. And by quite a bit as well. At any rate, I'm here for the 455 info. Thus far, I am only his acquiantence, and I have no clue what he did to the engine. I was just asked to help out, and that's what I aim on doing. When he gets his money straight, we're pulling the engine, stripping it down, and taking it to the machine shop for a diagnosis. We'll go from there. It was my guess that he knew just enough to be dangerous, and assembled some parts, without doing thorough enough research. It has been assembled for a good handful of years, and it never ran right. Ever. I'm just basically here, doin the legwork for him, trying to collect a list of parts that I can draw from, and parts to stay away from, for the next rebuild.

[Olds64]

knew just enough to be dangerous

I have a buddy that is just like that.

[buddiiee]

And boy can they blow some stuff up huh. lol. I suppose we were all like that at one time lol.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ About the advertised power ratings. I know some are way off ........

We have already covered it. Here it is again:

Originally Posted by 88 Coupe

Urban legend. There is no documentation to back it up.

Same urban legend.

Is there some documentation I do not know about?

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ our buicks were 10 off from the factory on both hp and tq ........

Interesting, that you would apply that particular number to a group of Buicks. Are we supposed to be impressed?

Coming off the production line, it was common for an engine to put out more, or less, than its “rating”, due to many factors, including the “stacking” of production tolerances. If a given engine was actually checked, it might show 20 HP over, or 20 HP under spec.

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ and about 3 tenths quicker in the quarter than advertised ........

When did the manufacturers advertise ¼ mile times for production cars?

Originally Posted by buddiiee

........ I know it's not much ........

3 tenths is not much. Yeah, right.


It might be wise if you limited your posts, to asking questions.

Norm