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I was just planning on replacing any damaged lifters unless I swapped the cam. I will go through and inspect them all and inspect the cam and go from there. These are the lifters I'm looking at, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-ht951 , they're cheap enough where I'm not afraid to buy as many as I need. Also does this seem to be a solid timing chain, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2113 , or is their another one I should look at? Thanks
I should state that I do want to get it done cheaply yes, but I'm also open to suggestions to other quality parts that I wont have to worry about failing on me if I beat on the engine a bit. So if anyone has any suggestions on lifters or timing chains for a stock street driven engine I'm open to suggestions!
Ok next set of questions. Do I need to run break in oil for the few lifters I replace? I'm going to get some assembly lube and some zinc added Brad Penn oil just wondering if special break in oil is necessary. Secondly since I will have the oil pan off for the timing chain should I replace the oil pump? If that's something that's known for going out I will replace it. Thanks
Last edited by 71cutlass350; October 24th, 2016 at 09:26 AM.
Ok next set of questions. Do I need to run break in oil for the few lifters I replace? I'm going to get some assembly lube and some zinc added Brad Penn oil just wondering if special break in oil is necessary. Secondly since I will have the oil pan off for the timing chain should I replace the oil pump, its $80 but if that's something that's known for going out I will replace it. Thanks
Opinions vary but I would take a look here about the subject of oils and break ins.
I would treat it like breaking in a new cam, and be sure to use the break in paste on the bottom of the new lifters. Break in oils may not be what they claim. I would just run a good quality oil instead and \let it idle about 2000-2500 for about 20 minutes.
Thanks for the suggestion and link. Ill make sure to use a quality oil and run it as if I were breaking in a new cam. Also after reading up more on replacing the timing chain I really don't want to remove the oil pan, sounds like a huge pain in the *** while its still in the car, so I'm going to try to just remove the front oil pan bolts and pry it down enough to hopefully be able to get the new seal slid in.
Thanks for the suggestion and link. Ill make sure to use a quality oil and run it as if I were breaking in a new cam. Also after reading up more on replacing the timing chain I really don't want to remove the oil pan, sounds like a huge pain in the *** while its still in the car, so I'm going to try to just remove the front oil pan bolts and pry it down enough to hopefully be able to get the new seal slid in.
Excellent idea. Go slowly and try not to damage the pan gasket. If successful it will save a lot of work.
One hint for anyone removing the pan is the big throws on the crank can be in the way of sliding it out, and you just will have to rotate the crank some, to move them up out of the way.
Got the heads back today and look great, but because of excessive valve guide wear and rust/deterioration on the valves they needed some extra work and the price ended up being $570, but atleast they are done right. I'm going to get the heads put on and check all the lifters and cam this weekend for sure and time permitting start on the timing chain and see how far I get on that.
Got the heads back today and look great, but because of excessive valve guide wear and rust/deterioration on the valves they needed some extra work and the price ended up being $570, but atleast they are done right. I'm going to get the heads put on and check all the lifters and cam this weekend for sure and time permitting start on the timing chain and see how far I get on that.
Ask them what valve stem clearance they put on the center exhaust valve guides first.
I can definitely call and ask them that but just curious why that would be important and how a shop would do that wrong? Also would that be for just the exhaust valve guides and what center? I apologize for my ignorance
If the cam gear teeth are torn-up or broken off it would be good to remove the pan to clean out the pieces to prevent the oil pump pick-up screen from being restricted.
Cannot recall who suggested this; but, take a picture of the timing chain and gear line-up before re-installing the front cover. If you second guess the install later you'll have the answer that you did it correctly.
I can definitely call and ask them that but just curious why that would be important and how a shop would do that wrong? Also would that be for just the exhaust valve guides and what center? I apologize for my ignorance
The center 2 exhaust valves/ports on Olds runs hotter than other brands, so extra clearance of a few thousands is usually given them to keep them from sticking open when the engine gets hot. People not use to doing olds heads may not know this. The reason the center ones on each head gets hotter is they share exhaust heat that goes into the intake manifold.
When you look at a single head you see the outside cylinders on each head, to the left and right. The center two on each head in in the center or middle, and not the ends are the two center ports. If you look on each head, in the center or middle where the intake bolts up, you will see the exhaust crossover port or hole, where some of the exhaust gases are fed from the two center exhaust valves up into the intake manifold. This is so the engines intake warms up faster.
The sharing of the exhaust heat/gases in the middle of each head is different with Olds, and not done say by Chevy and other engines. So those brands do not run a little hotter on their center exhaust valves, and get the same clearance on all 8 exhaust valve guides. Machinist sometime forget it or don't know this with Olds heads. So it good to ask or mention this to them, when getting new guides and valves. Old valves and guides are already opened up by normal wear, so no problem.
That explanation makes sense thanks. But I called the shop and talked to the owner and he says he has never run extra clearance on an Olds head and he has been in business for many years and has done a lot of Olds heads. So I understand what your saying but Ill trust my engine builder to and assume it will be fine.
That explanation makes sense thanks. But I called the shop and talked to the owner and he says he has never run extra clearance on an Olds head and he has been in business for many years and has done a lot of Olds heads. So I understand what your saying but Ill trust my engine builder to and assume it will be fine.
It has happened to some on this site and others, fresh valve job then disaster. I have a fresh set of #6 heads that need checked just for this reason, got them for a good price. The Ram EQ heads I bought also have that issue, Hughes said they used bronze guides to prevent the issue, so I bought them there. Jeggs sold them for $50 a head cheaper but the one feedback was a stuck valve after 15 minutes run time.
It has happened to some on this site and others, fresh valve job then disaster. I have a fresh set of #6 heads that need checked just for this reason, got them for a good price. The Ram EQ heads I bought also have that issue, Hughes said they used bronze guides to prevent the issue, so I bought them there. Jeggs sold them for $50 a head cheaper but the one feedback was a stuck valve after 15 minutes run time.
He may have just knurled the old guides and reused the worn valves (with their worn stems). New guides and valves I would have someone else check the clearance, but not the shop who did it or mention who did. It should say if he got new guides or valves on the receipt.
I was billed for 16 new valves, installation of valve guides, valve job, and milling. He has lots of experience building 455's for drag racing and plenty of other olds engines and has been in business for a long time so I'm going to assume he knows what he's doing and that I wont have any problems....Hopefully. Now you guys have me worried.
On a side note I was hoping to get the heads installed this weekend while I'm back but forgot about engine paint so looks like I'll have to wait for the following weekend to get the paint in. But I should be able to do the timing chain this weekend anyway.
The center 2 exhaust valves/ports on Olds runs hotter than other brands, so extra clearance of a few thousands is usually given them to keep them from sticking open when the engine gets hot.
A few thousandths (.001+)? That's pretty excessive. You mean a few ten-thousandths (.0001+)?
A few thousandths (.001+)? That's pretty excessive. You mean a few ten-thousandths (.0001+)?
Wiggle room Now we can debate whats excessive, but I know what kind of clearance they have after 50-100k miles or more in those guides, from both the guides worn and the valve stems hour glassing and its highly visible. We are also talking exhaust valves and only 4 of them, so I would say from a few thousands to 10s of thousands and let your conscious be your guide. Stick one and those cast pistons might not be happy.
I got the radiator and water pump off tonight and plan to the timing chain tomorrow. I'm going to read through the assembly manual but does anyone have any tips. I'm most concerned about messing up the timing. My understanding is that you line up the dots in the two gears, top gear dot on the bottom, bottom gear dot on the top. Correct?
I got the radiator and water pump off tonight and plan to the timing chain tomorrow. I'm going to read through the assembly manual but does anyone have any tips. I'm most concerned about messing up the timing. My understanding is that you line up the dots in the two gears, top gear dot on the bottom, bottom gear dot on the top. Correct?
Since you have got it torn that far you could probably learn to degree the cam in, as I am sure some might suggest.
But since your a virgin , maybe just try and get dot to dot on your old set first, and then remove the old chain and gears, without moving the crank or camshaft any. Then put the new set on dot to dot.
Go slowly and make notes or take pictures if you can't remember everything. You'll have to remove the balancer. Don't pull on the perimeter. Remove the cover carefully. Align the dots. Remove whatever you intend to replace. Be sure to use an all metal camshaft gear. The crankshaft gear might require a puller. Install both gears and chain together. Be sure the dots are still aligned. Install the fuel pump eccentric with the flat part toward the back of the engine. Be sure the crankshaft key is all the way in. Install the oil slinger as it was. If you want to change the seal do it before replacing the cover. Put sealant on the new seal perimeter. Lube the seal surface. Use a new gasket and put sealant (1050026 or equivalent) around the water holes. Be careful where the cover and the pan meet. It's a great place to have a leak. You may want to use a bit of sealant. It's best to center the cover's seal with the balancer before tightening the bolts. Be careful with the self tapping bolts. Always use lube and be sure they are starting in the existing thread in the cover. The lower bolts tighten to 35 ft.-lbs.; the 5/16" bolts at the top tighten to 25 ft-lbs.; the self threaders only tighten to 13 ft-lbs. Don't overdo it. If I forgot something or you have doubts, write back and ask. It's better to get it right the first time even if some waiting is required. Discovering an error after everything is back together is a real bummer.
Last edited by Ozzie; October 29th, 2016 at 03:20 AM.
Reason: More information
Immerse the chain in motor oil before the install or pour a lot of oil on it once it is in place. If the balancer has a groove worn where the seal rides install a repair sleeve on the hub.
Well I pulled the fuel pump and felt the chain and it felt loose to me so I went ahead and pulled the timing cover and someone had already done the timing chain so kinda a lot of unnecessary work on my part but who well that's how you learn. I'm going to clean every thing up and start to reassemble. But new question how much movement is the chain supposed to have?
Last edited by 71cutlass350; October 29th, 2016 at 09:50 AM.
Well I pulled the fuel pump and felt the chain and it felt loose to me so I went ahead and pulled the timing cover and someone had already done the timing chain so kinda a lot of unnecessary work on my part but who well that's how you learn. I'm going to clean every thing up and start to reassemble. But new question how much movement is the chain supposed to have?
Good.
I think you are about to answer your own question somewhat when you get the new chain on, and see how loose it feels, as compared to the one you took off. There is a trick, of once off, turning the chain horizontally and seeing how far it droops down on the other end to see how worn/loose it is. New chains won't droop a lot, but worn out ones will.
But once off and the new one on you will be able to feel how tight the new one "feels", for comparison and experience.
One more thing you have a tiny chain oiler hole on the passenger side behind the timing chain. Make sure it is open and not blocked off with crud.
Here is a picture of the oil hole plug you are looking for that sits in th block behind the timing chain, to make sure it is open and the hole is clean. One plug on drivers side is closed with no hole on later olds.
So you recommend stil replacing the timing chain with the new one even though it's already been replaced?
The original with plastic had to go. The replacement timing chain feels lose to you and may need to be replaced as well. How many miles on it and mistreatment (plugged oiler hole, not good oil or never changed, etc) no one knows. You have got it there, so yes I would say change it.
I found a gear puller so shouldn't be a problem now. Hopefully get everything for the timing chain put back together tomorrow before I have to leave for the week again. Thanks again for all your help!
I found a gear puller so shouldn't be a problem now. Hopefully get everything for the timing chain put back together tomorrow before I have to leave for the week again. Thanks again for all your help!
Just take it slow, like a hobby, with no time table. Much easier and no mistakes, or at least less of them that way.
But new question how much movement is the chain supposed to have?
Some manufacturers say to turn the engine so one side is tight and then measure the deflection on the other side. They say if the deflection exceeds 1/2" the chain should be replaced.
I suppose that I would have preferred an all gear drive arrangement, but that seems to never have "caught on" with the American V-8 engines. I suppose either the cost or noise objection controlled.
If you stick with the basic type chains they are still relatively inexpensive and probably a good investment while you have everything apart. Try to get one made in USA if possible. Some of the imports are of lesser quality.
Checked the rest of the lifters and cam lobes and they all look good so I should be fine with just replacing the one broken lifter. Also is it easier to mount the water pump to the timing chain cover before or after the timing chain cover in bolted on. And should I put rtv on both sides of the water pump and timing chain cover or do they not need it? Thanks
Checked the rest of the lifters and cam lobes and they all look good so I should be fine with just replacing the one broken lifter. Also is it easier to mount the water pump to the timing chain cover before or after the timing chain cover in bolted on. And should I put rtv on both sides of the water pump and timing chain cover or do they not need it? Thanks
You may want to see if you can get it on first without its gasket unless the front of the oil pan is dropped down off the block.
I put a thin coat of silicone on the block and then stick the gasket on it. Then let it set a few minutes, and then another thin amount on top of the gasket and try and put the timing cover on.
Same with the water pump, but I will leave up to others or you, if its done first or last, on easiness. Be sure when you do the final install on the timing cover to put a dab of silicone where the cover and block and oil pan all meet to prevent a possible leak there.
I usually do the cover first without the water pump to minimize the weight involved. It's important to get the seal centered on the balancer. I put a bit of sealant on all sealing surfaces. (Lube on the seal/balancer surface.) As mentioned, be extra careful at the bottom of the cover where it meets the oil pan.
Wiggle room Now we can debate whats excessive, but I know what kind of clearance they have after 50-100k miles or more in those guides, from both the guides worn and the valve stems hour glassing and its highly visible. We are also talking exhaust valves and only 4 of them, so I would say from a few thousands to 10s of thousands and let your conscious be your guide. Stick one and those cast pistons might not be happy.
Well if wiggle room is what you want, hell yah......give them .004" clearance. It is not necessary but if you sleep better at night than go for it.
October 18th, 2016, 04:57 PM
Now we can debate whats excessive, but I know what kind of clearance they have after 50-100k miles or more in those guides, from both the guides worn and the valve stems hour glassing and its highly visible. We are also talking exhaust valves and only 4 of them, so I would say from a few thousands to 10s of thousands and let your conscious be your guide. Stick one and those cast pistons might not be happy.
