steedaq

Hi all,

My question is pretty straight forward, although I'm doubting the answer is...

How do you tell whether 72-74 Cutlasses were equipped with the 442 option? I'm interested in a 72 near me that the seller claims has the 442 option, but I would like to be able to know for sure.

Thanks

joe_padavano

The only way to know for sure is with an original build sheet or original window sticker. All the 442-unique parts can be bolted onto any Cutlass.

wmachine

Unless it is a W30, of course.

steedaq

That's kind of what I figured... So there's no counting the number of coils in the springs of the hood hinge or tricks like that then, huh?

joe_padavano

Nope.

steedaq

Hey, I sure appreciate the info you guys. Thanks.

1969w3155

Option code "W29" is what you are looking for.

k364

you might want to try running the vin # on vin decoded as well thats what i did with mine

joe_padavano

Which will not answer the original question of how do you prove it's a real 442. There was no indication in the VIN for those years.

k364

im not trying to argue with anyone but i went to vindecoded.com to ask the same question my vin for my 74 olds 442 came back a 74 442 w/455 the engine was long gone when i empounded it about 5 years ago anyway im not sure about 68-72 vin #'s. im sure 74-77 are on vin code decoded.com it also tells you what factory it was made in. my 74,75, and 77 were all made in georga

joe_padavano

And again, if someone was able to verify that a 74 was a 442 just from the VIN, they are mistaken. A 1974 VIN can be decoded from the following GM-published VIN card:

http://service.gm.com/dealerworld/vi.../vincard74.pdf

Note that the second position of the VIN is the car line. For A-body Oldsmobiles in 1974 you only had the following choices:

F = Cutlass
G = Cutlass, Cutlass S
H = Cutlass Supreme
J = Cutlass Supreme, Vista Cruiser

Note that none of those are "442".

The engine code WAS included in the VIN in the fifth character, so you can verify if the car originally came with a 455. That alone doesn't make it a 442, however.

By the way, that site has VIN cards for all GM cars from 1972 to present.

k364

well as far as im concerned you are correct there is no way of knowing if it is a 442 just by the vin you are right though the vin tells you where it was made, engine size, body style. i guess the other guy asking about the 442 vin well just have to think or know it is (my title says 442) but the interior says cutlass s (base model) the body tags say 442 on all 4 corners one on each fender one on the driver grill and one on the pass trunklid i will still look into it though. Check the title or get ahold of your local dmv

k364

my buddy has a 72 olds 442 and nowhere does it say cutlass s at all it just 442 all over the outside as well as the inside im not sure of a 73? thats the one with the different rear bumper and tail lights (the only year they did that).

joe_padavano

Once more from the top.

Starting with the 1972 model year, the 442 package was an option available on several models in the Cutlass line. The 442 package included ONLY the grille, external emblems, stiffer front and back sway bars, different springs, and (for 73-74) a louvered hood. Some years may have had blacked out tail light borders. Note that Olds called it the "442 appearance and handling package" for those years. It did NOT include any specific engine or drivetrain parts. Those were ordered separately and were not part of the 442 package. The VIN will NOT indicate that the car has the 442 option. Only the build sheet will tell this. If a title for one of these cars says "442" then someone made an error at the DMV, because there was no 442 model in those years. The 442 package was an option with the same status as air conditioning or cruise control (which also do not appear in the VIN).

wmachine

Keep in mind that a title is never proof of what model is. BMVs do not verify models, they simple record what they are told, incorrect or otherwise.
I had a '65 Triumph Spitfire that was titled (with the correct VIN) as a '60 TR3.
Because it had the correct VIN, it was a legal title for the car, and would have taken factory documentation to correct the model and year info on the title. (Ohio).

cutlassjoe

Just to chime in...I agree with Joe. My car is a 72' Cutlass S that I have cloned to a 442. I changed the badges, and grilles as well as a beefed up 350 and heavier suspension just as they would have in 72'. My door panels still have the "S" emblem, and that is the giveway until I get the interior redone next year. The point is my car is a clone and I have no problem with that. When I go to a car show I always list it as a Cutlass S. It makes me nervous when someone tells me the car they have is original and numbers matching when they can't show proof.

So unless you can find the build sheet to prove what it is be very careful. I found my buildsheet under the back seat. Goold luck, let us know how you make out.

Bens71442

I agree with earlier posting- simply look under the rear seat, push the rear bench seat in and up (push hard) two hooks

Hopefully you'll see a yellow perforated piece of paper (stapled to one of the seat cushion springs- or laying on the floor under that rear bench seat. I hope it has what your looking for on it, and thats the typed letter and numbers W 29 which would mean it has the 442 sport appearance and handling package.

Sam Barrett

I agree with Joe totally. In fact if there is any badging on the interior that says 442 it has been modified because interior badging matched the model (i.e. Cutlass supreme, Cutlass S). The W29 was an external appearance package with the stiffer handling package underneath the car.

The only thing you can get from the vin is the X which tells you it was a W30 but that did not get you the appearance package.

wmachine

Um, yes, it did. In '72, W30 was an option that included W29. You could get W29 without W30, but not W30 without W29.

Sam Barrett

Thanks, I did not know that.

k364

as i said my 74 olds 442 has cutlass s on the door panels and all the potmetal badges one on each fender, one on the pass trunk lid, and one on the front driver grill my camera is full otherwise i would get pics of it

joe_padavano

Well.... with one exception. The 1972 H/O was available with the W-30 motor, but technically it was a Supreme and did not get the W-29 package. Of course, I have yet to see a 1972 H/O hardtop with the VIN 3J57X2Mxxxxxx, but there SHOULD have been a handful of them made. These would have been the only 57-style cars with an X engine code. Anyone here have one?

wmachine

Quite right on that Joe. Likewise, I have not seen an "X" H/O, but I *think* I recall reading that they do have the X VIN.

benji94

Joe P. wrote: "Some years may have had blacked out tail light borders."

Joe...I bought my 72 442 W30 from the original owner and it is black around the rear tail light (red) lenses. I always assumed that the original owner must have painted them. So you are saying some of them came black?

I was planning on getting new grey ones but it if they came black I'll leave them alone.

Thanks.

442much

Keep in mind there is a way to narrow it down, As Joe says for 1974

F = Cutlass
G = Cutlass, Cutlass S
H = Cutlass Supreme
J = Cutlass Supreme, Vista Cruiser

However, if the car has H or J, there is no point waisting time researching. It will not be a 442. If it has F or G it's possible. That's worth researching. You have a 50/50 chance then. The H and J cars are 0 chance. For 1975, 1976 and 1977 all 442's were "G" cars 3G37(Cutlass S). However not all "G" cars were 442's. The build sheet needs the W29 option to be a 442.

DennisG.

Since it was an "option" from 72 up. The word "real" is a relative and useless term. Especially since pretty much everyone adds options to their cars. There is absolutely no difference what so ever from a car that has been "correctly" converted over to one that has left the factory with the W-29 "option". None, nothing, nada. 72 "X" and 74 "V" cars not included.

MJAKS462

I always get a kick out of people who advertise their 72 Cutlass as 442s. It is an option similar to a Buick Skylark GS with a GSX option added, there is no GSX model car in 72 only an option.
I just feel sorry for people who pay so much extra thinking that they are getting something real rare and the package was probably added at a later date unless the seller has the build sheet to back it up
I wish OLDS was like Pontiac historical society so we could just send the VIN in and they woud have on record what a car was optioned with..
At least I dont have any thing to prove , Mine is for sure a 72 Cutlass Supreme without the 442 option.

1969w3155

If it didn't leave the factory with option code W29, no matter how well done, it ain't real, and you are not getting my money.

wmachine

Yes, there certainly *is* a difference! You even contradict yourself by excluding the X and V cars, because those are options too, and can be "converted". That is exactly what a clone/tribute/recreation is. A conversion.
It may not make any difference to *you*, but it makes a difference to the car hobby as a whole. A *big* difference.
It was an option before '68 too. You won't convince anyone but yourself that a factory '66 or '67 W30 (an option as was the 442 package) is "the same" as a conversion. And the value differences confirms that.

joe_padavano

But, back to the original question - how do you PROVE that on a 1972 car?

DennisG.

First of all, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Second, please explain what real means ?


I didn't contradict myself. Nor am I "trying" to convince anyone. I excluded those for a reason. You allways play know-it-all so you should know why. You can "convert" it all you want but you'll play hell changing the vin to a X or V. And what does 66-67 have to do with 72 and up ? Now your just rattling. But since you brought it up I guess the ones converted by the dealers are worthless then ?

I agree about the value difference in clones but there was nothing special or magical about the sheet metal, plastic and vynil used to make 442's or W-30's. Or any other muscle car for that matter. People blow that way out of proportion. There was noone standing there on the line blessing each one as it rolled by. You will be a mighty 442. You will be a W-30. You will be a lowly little F-85.

Are you gonna tell the guy with the Duesenburg, his car isn't real because they had to replace the body and fenders ?

wmachine

Well I see you decided to bring a knife to gun fight. A correct conversion doesn't have to involve the letters. Adding an option does not require it to be numbers matching. VINs can and have been changed if you're that motivated. If you want to add an option, you can add an option.

You're kidding, right? You do know that in '66 and '67 (and '64-'65), the 442 was an option? Like in '72- and up? See a connection now?
I have to presume you're referring to the W30 dealer conversions? "Worthless"? That's *your* argumentative word. Worth less? (2 words) Yes, it certainly is. What proof does that need?
Plain and simply, with an original/correct car, documentation makes a car worth more.

Fine if it's not important to you. But it is to a lot of people. Providence is an important part of virtually all antiques. Your ridiculous antics don't change that. It is better that you don't have an original 442 or W30 as you don't appreciate that. Nothing wrong with that.

Like that has anything to do with anything?

1969w3155

Original paperwork. If I were in the market for one I would not buy one without it.

1969w3155

[quote=DennisG.;196430]First of all, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Second, please explain what real means ?

It's not an implication that you are trying to sell me anything, and "real" means it left the factory as a 442. No, they don't have to have their original body panels to be real, Duesenberg or any other make.

joe_padavano

That's admirable, but not too practical. Very few 72s (or other years for that matter) have build sheets and/or original invoices. Again, thus the original question.

DennisG.

You crack me up.

1- Worthless IS one word. Look it up.

2- The subject line IS 72 and up. NOT 67 and down.

3- We are talking ADDING options. NOT changing vins and cloning.

4- Documentation. Yes it makes every car worth more. I never said it didn't nor was that ever in question.

5- Since the Duesenburg thing is above your head I'm not gonna even bother with that.

stevengerard

he meant "worthless" is close to zero "worth less" is lower than a number greater than 1.

The Duesenburg thing always makes me chuckle because I am right there with you. I read years ago about a frame found on a farm and the VIN confirmed it was a Duesenburg and of course 3 years later there was a beautiful restored Duesenburg worth a ton. Re-bodies and adding options will always be a debate. I would always rather see a car have another body put on then sent to a junk yard, but that's just me.

442b

I read this post & my head is still spinning........ So, are you saying that my car could be a "Clone" ? Vin 3G87X2M------. Got me curious now. No, I do not have build sheet. My car is a 1972 Olds Cutlass 442 W-30 4-speed. Any feedback would be good. Thanks, Brian

phukinartie

Heh! Heh ! He! No matter what forum I am on I love to see threads spin out like this one has! I am glad my 68 442 has a vin # to id what it is (
Now I am not too sure but i would suspect that the 442 badges may be different than the cutlass badges so maybe look for holes that are factory punched in the body parts rather than drilled that could be a way to look if it makes you feel better...
But really no specific vin no build sheet...no way to know for sure

joe_padavano

No, yours is the one exception. The VIN doesn't say that it's a 442, but it DOES prove that the car came with a factory installed W-30 motor, which could only be gotten in a 442 (or H/O, but there were no "87" body style H/Os in 72, so obviously it's a real 442).

Unfortunately, all of the other engine codes were available without the 442 option in 1972, so the VIN can't prove that the car is a factory 442. X-code VINs are the only exception.