AWD Vista Cruiser conversion?

[Omicron]

Something I've been pondering is how cool a Vista Cruiser would be with the utility of a modern AWD or 4WD vehicle. Has anyone ever heard of someone converting a VC to AWD?

[Oldsguy]

It would be totally possible, but not sure how easy it would be. Would you start with a different chassis that was already AWD or modify the Olds?

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

It would be totally possible, but not sure how easy it would be. Would you start with a different chassis that was already AWD or modify the Olds?

I dunno Dan, I'd probably study both ways. My first thought would be to see if a modern pickup chasis might fit with minimal modification, thereby bringing with it modern brakes, suspension, tranny, driveshafts/halfshafts, etc. That failing, I'd look at what AWD cars could be found for cheap then perhap adapt the critical components piece by piece. I suspect the former way might be easier and cheaper, and just eyeballing it, a short to medium bed, king cab pickup might just be close to fitting.

[Eddie Hansen]

A friend of mine bought a 67 camaro, he actually mounted that on a blazer chasis for 4 wheel drive, that to me was such a waste!! but it wasn't my ride , I think that mounting the vista body on the existing chasis is the way to go, just weld in the body mount brackets etc , I guess the key would be wheel placement, and width even if you had to use say an s-10 etc , on the other hand I have seen many an el camino that has been converted, and i imagine the same process would work for the vista cruiser, excuse my ignorance on the same vein of thinking, are there Olds wagons without the vista roof? I think i saw them but would love to someday find a 69 cutlass type...
I always thought ( dreamed) of making a panel delivery out of a wagon ( albeit it was buying a lemans wagon and converting it with gto parts, I would leave the back doors and shave the handles...

anyway would love to see the results of your conversion...

one pick of an el camino conversion i found is below

[The_Jeremiah]

What i would do, is just swap out your front suspension for something that was an independant front with 4 wheel drive. you will most likely end up getting a lift for the front and rear though. It might be a lot of work, however i would love to see it done, good luck !

[J-(Chicago)]

That is a cool thought Eddie.
My buddy and I will try and splice a 61 Mercury with a rotted floor, onto a 76 Lincoln floor and frame this summer. Going to try and make chicken salad out of chicken Sh1t.

[Eddie Hansen]

sorry about the stupid question regarding the wagon, of course they did ... what a ma-roooon.

[Eddie Hansen]

Well i keep thinking about the vista cruiser wagon, had a fun thought abnd used a photoshop type program to get an artists rendering, ( me ) I guess it could look pretty cool... I took the el camino pic above and combined it with a vista wagon pic I found on the net... a little rough but not too bad

[Omicron]

Now we're cookin here! Guess I'm not the only one who's a little intrigued with this idea.

Originally Posted by The_Jeremiah

What i would do, is just swap out your front suspension for something that was an independant front with 4 wheel drive. you will most likely end up getting a lift for the front and rear though.

You're probably right. Question is, from what?


Hmmm.... just had another thought: I wonder if the front wheel drive guts from a Toronado could be made to work? Couple that with the stock rear end, and a modern 4x4 transmission... hmmm.

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by Eddie Hansen

Well i keep thinking about the vista cruiser wagon, had a fun thought abnd used a photoshop type program to get an artists rendering, ( me ) I guess it could look pretty cool... I took the el camino pic above and combined it with a vista wagon pic I found on the net... a little rough but not too bad

Now that is pretty cool. Imagine the looks you'd get in something like that! Not sure I'd go with the big old mudder tires, but the concept is right.

[Eddie Hansen]

I would check the measurements from a blazer, I think some of the small size blazers also had coil springs in the rear, ( might help to change front and rear to keep things simple for brakes etc?
I am just thinking out loud here... oh-kay maybe just talking out loud, I haven't done this just throwing out ideas...

[Eddie Hansen]

ummmm why waste all that room in the back??? buy two toronados !! lol.. one motor for the front and 1 for the back, i remember reading they did that to a tornado once it was 4 wheel drive, I think it is still around in sweden or something..

[Redog]

^^ It's in the musuem in Lansing, I saw it last year.

Are you looking to make an AWD or a 4WD. I'm thinking like the little Evos and STi that are rolling around today.

I heard about a VC running in the low 13's, with an AWD converstion is probably could get into the very high 12's, considering the extra weight involved

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by Redog

^^ It's in the musuem in Lansing, I saw it last year.

Are you looking to make an AWD or a 4WD. I'm thinking like the little Evos and STi that are rolling around today.

I heard about a VC running in the low 13's, with an AWD converstion is probably could get into the very high 12's, considering the extra weight involved

Thinking more along the line of making it as practical as a modern SUV from a traction standpoint, not really going for pure performance. (I have my 442 for that ) So yes, my first thought was adapting the front and rear suspensions from a Subbie, problem as I see it would be the weight would just be too much for that. That's why I started going down the path of a pickup truck, or perhaps a AWD crossover. Guess it depends on what I can find in auto salvage yards if/when I get around to this someday. For now it's just an interesting theoretical exercise.

[Oldsguy]

I was thinking along the lines you described Paul, practical. Therefore I don't think it would look as radical as the photoshop idea although that IS cool. It would have to be a little lower with more realistic sized tires/wheels. I just hate the idea of using Suburu running gear though. Wouldn't there be some way of using a transfer case from a GM product with the existing 455/TH400 drive in the car? Maybe you would have to raise the body off the frame a few inches at the most, modify the suspension accordingly and keep the same frame. You might have to convert to a set of bucket seats to accommodate the additional hump in the drive train tunnel area. Just a though.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

It would be totally possible, but not sure how easy it would be. Would you start with a different chassis that was already AWD or modify the Olds?

I have a 1972 Olds Vista Cruiser here in Texas and had thought about the same idea. My thoughts were this, finding a wrecked Bravada or even a Cyclone or Typhoon, this would give you the transfer case and transmission and all the front suspension items. Instead of throwing the body onto a truck frame, incorporate the truck suspension and drivetrain pieces (minus the enginebecause you'd want at LEAST a Rocket 350 under the hood) into the original car frame.

I have worked out some of the details and after I get a couple of other projects completed, I am seriously going to look into the feasibility of this working.

Frank Redmond

[joe_padavano]

Wow, sounds like we've all been thinking the same thing. I was contemplating using a Toro oil pan, differential, and stub axles since this setup bolts to the bottom of an Olds motor. Of course you'll need to relocate the crossmember to clear, which means you'll need a Toro front motor mount as well. You'll need to adapt S10... er, Bravada spindles and torsion bars to make room for the front halfshafts. The rear axle is stock except the ratios need to match. Use the Bravada full time AWD transfer case.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

I hadn't thought about the Toro stuff, but that has potential also. I would think that using something after they downsized would be better, this way you would have better chances of matching up the track to the Vista. There are still a lot of Bravada's in the salvage yards too.

I have used the complete drivetrain (minus engine) from the Bravada's before when I was building Oldsmobile conversions on S-10's trucks because of the AWD vs the push-button 4WD of the S-10's. The AWD system on them is pretty straight forward and think that would work on the Vista. The biggest issues would be mounting the transfer case and retaining the "factory" road height.

[Omicron]

This will be so cool if and when someone does it!

One thought I've had is that the Bravada tranny will likely not handle the torque of a big block, so perhaps the transfer case will need to come from a GM truck. The rest should be able to be built with Olds parts.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

Originally Posted by Omicron

This will be so cool if and when someone does it!

One thought I've had is that the Bravada tranny will likely not handle the torque of a big block, so perhaps the transfer case will need to come from a GM truck. The rest should be able to be built with Olds parts.

I built an S-10 Oldsmobile truck using the Bravada AWD and had a built 350 Rocket in that one and last I know, it was still terrorizing the streets in Florida. The transfer case and transmission will handle it as long as you have them beefed up with the Cyclone/Typhoon internals.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by HotRodHearseGuy

I hadn't thought about the Toro stuff, but that has potential also. I would think that using something after they downsized would be better, this way you would have better chances of matching up the track to the Vista. There are still a lot of Bravada's in the salvage yards too.

I'm not talking about the whole Toro front suspension, just the oil pan with notch, differential (that bolts to the driver's side of an Olds block), and the two stub axles that fit into the diff and have the flanges that the half-shafts bolt to. This hardware all bolts to any Olds block. You'd need to fit the differential with a yoke (normally it bolts to the Toro trans case). You'd need to custom make half shafts that bolted to the Toro flanges on the inside and the Bravada spindles on the outside. None of this is very hard to do.

[nonhog]

This thread is getting good , I've had similar thoughts . Around Seattle/Tacoma you can pick up AWD Astro vans for nuthin'
I would think if the Syclone was as low as it was(and they used modified Astro parts) there would be no need for anyone to know you've made any changes . As in don't raise the cruiser !

[HotRodHearseGuy]

Thank you for correcting the spelling on the Syclone! I knew I was spelling it wrong both times!

I had forgotten about the AWD system in the Astro's and that they had used that for the Sy/Ty's too. The reason my thoughts were for using somehing like that originally was because of the road height they set those at originally. We have PLENTY of those AWD Astro's around here too andsome yards, they will let you buy a complete unit, this way you can get what you want and most will even buy back whatever is left from your scavenging.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

Originally Posted by Eddie Hansen

I always thought ( dreamed) of making a panel delivery out of a wagon ( albeit it was buying a lemans wagon and converting it with gto parts, I would leave the back doors and shave the handles...

Eddie,

I built a 1987 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser Pro Street that also went from 5-doors to 3-doors and sealed in the cargo windows. I too have considered something like that in the Cutlass Wagon of the same year as my Vista and possibly like you and go for a GTO Clone Sedan Delivery.

The last Sedan Delivery's made at the factory for GM were 1960 and that was based on the Chevy lineup. I think the last Pontiac was 1957 and don't think Oldsmobile ever built an actual Sedan Delivery.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by HotRodHearseGuy

The last Sedan Delivery's made at the factory for GM were 1960 and that was based on the Chevy lineup. I think the last Pontiac was 1957 and don't think Oldsmobile ever built an actual Sedan Delivery.

You could buy a Vega sedan delivery in the early 1970s. Chevy also now sells a sedan delivery version of the HHR.

As an interesting aside (and getting even further off topic), the 77-90 Custom Cruiser is almost the same size as a 68-72 Vista. The VC used a 121" wheelbase, the Custom Cruiser uses a 116" wheelbase (same as the 68-72 flattop wagons). The longer Vista wheelbase was to allow the forward facing third seat. The Custom Cruiser is about 2 inches wider and taller than the older car and a few inches longer, mainly due to the 5 miles per hour bumpers. The extra width is nice, because I can put a sheet of plywood flat in the 86 CC - I couldn't do that in my 68 VC.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

You could buy a Vega sedan delivery in the early 1970s. Chevy also now sells a sedan delivery version of the HHR.

I forgot about the Vega and the really sad thing about that, we had a neighbor who owned one. Drove the snot out of it and then a few years later, he converted it into a "baby" elCamino! I've seen the HHR's and they're cool, especially in SD form. I guess I was thinking more of when a Sedan Delivery was larger and had more capacity for carrying things like a body to the Funeral Home or things like that.

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

As an interesting aside (and getting even further off topic), the 77-90 Custom Cruiser is almost the same size as a 68-72 Vista. The VC used a 121" wheelbase, the Custom Cruiser uses a 116" wheelbase (same as the 68-72 flattop wagons). The longer Vista wheelbase was to allow the forward facing third seat. The Custom Cruiser is about 2 inches wider and taller than the older car and a few inches longer, mainly due to the 5 miles per hour bumpers. The extra width is nice, because I can put a sheet of plywood flat in the 86 CC - I couldn't do that in my 68 VC.

On another note on that too, 1964-1970, the ONLY station wagons available at that time were the Vista Cruisers and Cutlass wagon for Oldsmobile. They were at that time considered the full-size wagon. It wasn't 1971 when the Custom Cruiser would make it's debut as the larger full-size. I owned SEVERAL of the 1977-1990 Oldsmobile Custom Cruisers and liked that I could use it like a truck when needed and still had passenger comfort when I carried people.

I can also fit 4x8 sheets of plywood in my hearse and it's wonderful still having the rollers and a way to lock them into place with the bier pins!

[Oldsguy]

The thought of a Sedan Delivery built from a Vista Cruiser body with an all wheel drive chassis intrigues me. I envision a taller top than stock, with the VC windows. Maybe as tall as the Chevy Astro vans were. That would be nice visually, even nicer, incorporate the clamshell rear door/window assembly.
The HHR Sedan Deliveries leave a lot to be desired functionally speaking. They are much smaller than the old Astro vans and the visibility is nill for backing out of a straight in or even angle parking spot, the mirrors just don't hack it and without the side window you are backing blind. I hate it.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

The thought of a Sedan Delivery built from a Vista Cruiser body with an all wheel drive chassis intrigues me. I envision a taller top than stock, with the VC windows. Maybe as tall as the Chevy Astro vans were. That would be nice visually, even nicer, incorporate the clamshell rear door/window assembly.
The HHR Sedan Deliveries leave a lot to be desired functionally speaking. They are much smaller than the old Astro vans and the visibility is nill for backing out of a straight in or even angle parking spot, the mirrors just don't hack it and without the side window you are backing blind. I hate it.

I think the clamshell rear door/window assembly would be incredible as a sedan delivery. Take this one step further....instead of using a VC as the basis, why not use the 1971-1976 Custom Cruiser and incorporate the vista roof instead. I still see VC's in some of the salvage yards on my travels, especially around Colorado and Wyoming. I know of a yard north of Denver that has at least 14 Vista's just sitting there either waiting to be restored or used as donor material. You have now really got my motor running to add a couple more projects to my plate.

I know ALL about limited visibility as my daily driver is a 1981 S&S Cadillac Victoria hearse. The coach is still complete with drapes and is a landau. I have test driven an HHR Panel and they're actually a bit worse than my 20 feet of hearse for parking and backing up as they're so short. I tend to also scare people with the hearse because of how I'm able to handle it with turns, how much room between things, etc.

[Omicron]

Been thinking about this (so far, theoretical) project a bit more. The problem with going with Toronado front end components and Bravada transfer case etc is you're basically just making an old car 4WD. Don't get me wrong, I love old cars and drive my 442 whenever I can. BUT there's no denying that it's got old car brakes, steering, and so on. And when the roads get crappy enough to need 4WD, the last thing I want to be driving is my 442.

My original idea here was to modernize the underpinnings of a VC to the point where the Vista Cruiser is as nice and safe and reliable to drive as a modern SUV or AWD car is. So I think if/when I do this, I'm going to take everything but the bodyshell from a modern pickup or SUV and adapt it so the Olds VC fits on it. Done right, I'd be driving a "modern" Vista Cruiser.

[Oldsguy]

Good point but just too bad it couldn't have an Olds V8 powering it.

[gearheads78]

Another possible check donor would be an AWD Astro van

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Omicron

Been thinking about this (so far, theoretical) project a bit more. The problem with going with Toronado front end components and Bravada transfer case etc is you're basically just making an old car 4WD. Don't get me wrong, I love old cars and drive my 442 whenever I can. BUT there's no denying that it's got old car brakes, steering, and so on. And when the roads get crappy enough to need 4WD, the last thing I want to be driving is my 442.

You're still not reading my thread. Use the Toro differential, oil pan, and stub axle flanges. Use the Bravada transfer case. Front spindles will probably need to come from a Bravada also, which means the whole suspension and torsion bar setup. I'm not sure what else you think you would do?

Given unlimited money, you could get the AWD suspension and xfer case from something like a new Caddy STS. Good luck with that.

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

You're still not reading my thread.

Sure I am Joe. I'm musing here, not trying to get you annoyed.

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Use the Toro differential, oil pan, and stub axle flanges. Use the Bravada transfer case. Front spindles will probably need to come from a Bravada also, which means the whole suspension and torsion bar setup. I'm not sure what else you think you would do?

Yup, got all that. Believe it or not, I read "your" thread. I'm just thinking along a different line.

My thought: Take one modern pickup or SUV from the junkyard. Remove the body - basically everything but the engine and drivetrain - to the point where it would almost drive if you added a seat and steering wheel. Now cut the frame down to match the wheelbase of the Vista Cruiser, make custom driveshafts, and drop the VC body on. Fix steering, throttle/breaks linkages, fuel tank, etc; and VOLIA! You have a VC on a modern chasis with neat things like antilock breaks modern suspension geometry and drive train, reliable fuel injected efficient engine, etc.

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Given unlimited money, you could get the AWD suspension and xfer case from something like a new Caddy STS. Good luck with that.

Um, yeah.

[HotRodHearseGuy]

I had one more thought on this, but you would need to have some incredible fabricating skills. You're going to modify a ladder style frame to be adapted to a perimeter frame. Just pull all the drivetrain from an AWD Astro van and build your OWN perimeter frame using the newer components. Basically, this was my original thinking in just pulling the needed parts from a NEWER, more technologically advanced vehicle, not the 1972 technology, but that technology has been used since 1965 until 1996 on at least the B and D body GM cars. Sure it has anti-lock brakes and some other things, but you can adapt all that from the donor car too.

I guess once I get the Custom Delivery and my 1953 Cadillac hearse done, the Vista will be the next project lined up and more I think about this, yeah, will have to build an AWD, just to do one with my line of thinking.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with if/when you decidee to pursue this project also. Will be interesting to see how two different but similar cars will be built.

Joe has an idea too with using the STS AWD platform, but those cars are of a unibody design, so basically you take all the drivetrain and suspension. That's always a thought too, but the ones I've already seen at the dismantlers, they've been damaged beyond the point of salvagable parts from the suspension.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Omicron

My thought: Take one modern pickup or SUV from the junkyard. Remove the body - basically everything but the engine and drivetrain - to the point where it would almost drive if you added a seat and steering wheel. Now cut the frame down to match the wheelbase of the Vista Cruiser, make custom driveshafts, and drop the VC body on. Fix steering, throttle/breaks linkages, fuel tank, etc; and VOLIA! You have a VC on a modern chasis with neat things like antilock breaks modern suspension geometry and drive train, reliable fuel injected efficient engine, etc.

No, actually what you have is a VC on a TRUCK chassis. Not known for sports car handling. The "reliable fuel injected efficient engine" sounds a lot like an SBC LSx series. It's your car, do what you want, I guess.

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

No, actually what you have is a VC on a TRUCK chassis. Not known for sports car handling. The "reliable fuel injected efficient engine" sounds a lot like an SBC LSx series. It's your car, do what you want, I guess.

Again, it's a theoretical exercise. I don't have one now. From the first post of this thread:

Originally Posted by omicron

Something I've been pondering is how cool a Vista Cruiser would be with the utility of a modern AWD or 4WD vehicle. Has anyone ever heard of someone converting a VC to AWD?

Originally Posted by HotRodHearseGuy

... modify a ladder style frame to be adapted to a perimeter frame...

Now that's something I hadn't considered.

Originally Posted by HotRodHearseGuy

Just pull all the drivetrain from an AWD Astro van and build your OWN perimeter frame using the newer components.

Yup, I think you (and Joe) are both right here. I'm just trying to figure out the simplest way to do this, so long as it's more than just a conversion to AWD/4WD. Really want to get the upgrades of a modern car, especially ABS. Anyone aware of an aftermarket ABS kit?

[88 coupe]

http://www.pbase.com/xl1ken/image/97917198/large

Norm