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Old July 16th, 2011, 10:06 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Lifter angle/camshaft question

OK, I have read all the posted information I could find on which camshaft goes in what engine, and the whole lifter angle application. My question is, has anyone installed a 39 degree cam (67-up) in a 45 degree engine 330 (64-66)? What, if any, problems or symptoms occured? I believe the cam I was supplied for my wife's 64 330 is incorrect, although the company says it is a 45 degree. However, their parts application says this part number is for a 67 330 and 68-74 350 Olds, which are 39 degree engines. I won't get into the problems I have yet, as I don't want to affect any responses. I do want to see if anyone can say, "yes, it happened to me, and it did this...." That way, I have justification to tear the engine back down and get a different brand camshaft instead of having the supplier exchange it for the same thing. Thanks.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
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OK, I have read all the posted information I could find on which camshaft goes in what engine, and the whole lifter angle application. My question is, has anyone installed a 39 degree cam (67-up) in a 45 degree engine 330 (64-66)? What, if any, problems or symptoms occured? I believe the cam I was supplied for my wife's 64 330 is incorrect, although the company says it is a 45 degree. However, their parts application says this part number is for a 67 330 and 68-74 350 Olds, which are 39 degree engines. I won't get into the problems I have yet, as I don't want to affect any responses. I do want to see if anyone can say, "yes, it happened to me, and it did this...." That way, I have justification to tear the engine back down and get a different brand camshaft instead of having the supplier exchange it for the same thing. Thanks.
It'll run like crap. Others will chime in I'm sure.

I do custom cams, did a 330 45 for someone just a couple weeks ago. If they don't exchange it let me know, but they should.

Best of luck.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 11:06 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Can you be more specific? If this cam is incorect, I don't want an exchange, because they only show one cam for this engine.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Can you be more specific? If this cam is incorect, I don't want an exchange, because they only show one cam for this engine.
If you degree the cam on the No. 1 cylinder, that bank will be installed correctly and the other side will be 12 degrees retarded. Hence Mark's statement that it will run like crap. Don't confuse the lobe profile with the bank angle of the lifters. Any Olds cam profile can be ground for either a 39 deg application or a 45 deg application. You need the cam ground for the block you have.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Correct.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 02:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Again, "runs like crap" is a general condition, and can mean a variety of driveability symptoms. I'm looking for specific ones. I can tell you what our car is doing, but that could open up a lot of "me too" replies. Or a bunch of "my car did that and it was this." I've already tried searching for my symptoms, and noth quite matches. I want to know if anyone has put a 39 degree cam (or gotten one by mistake) into a 45 degree engine, and what they experienced.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 03:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You already have a notion that the cam is wrong. Throw a degree wheel on it and go from there. You can get a real good idea without ripping the motor apart.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 04:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Again, "runs like crap" is a general condition, and can mean a variety of driveability symptoms. I'm looking for specific ones. I can tell you what our car is doing, but that could open up a lot of "me too" replies. Or a bunch of "my car did that and it was this." I've already tried searching for my symptoms, and noth quite matches. I want to know if anyone has put a 39 degree cam (or gotten one by mistake) into a 45 degree engine, and what they experienced.
How it runs depends on how the cam was installed. If you degreed it to the no. 1 cylinder, half the cylinders will be running with the cam 12 degrees retarded. If you installed the cam by aligning the timing marks, half the cylinders will be 6 degrees advanced and half six retarded. Neither option will produce optimum power.
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Old July 16th, 2011, 08:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Power is not the issue with car. Without giving too much away, it has an idle problem. And no, it's not loping. I already have an opinion from Mondello, but I would like to correlate that with anyone who has installed the wrong cam.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 09:34 AM   #10 (permalink)
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but I would like to correlate that with anyone who has installed the wrong cam.
I suspect that you will find that most people go out of their way to install the RIGHT cam...
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Old July 17th, 2011, 09:43 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Without giving too much away,
Sorry, I just don't get what you're trying to do here.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 09:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Sorry, I just don't get what you're trying to do here.
Oh, sure you get it. The O.P. bought the wrong cam, installed it, and now wants us to tell him everything will be OK.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Oh, sure you get it. The O.P. bought the wrong cam, installed it, and now wants us to tell him everything will be OK.
What's the big secret Joe? Most people tell as much as they can to get the help they need. I don't understand the phrase "Without giving too much away."

But then again, You may be right [wrong cam] You usually are my friend
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Old July 17th, 2011, 10:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
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No. I rebuilt the engine and was supplied a cam by the shop who did the head work. All I did was ask that they locate a cam that would not be too erratic, and they ordered it. I assumed it was correct. According to the manufacturer (Melling), it is the correct cam. However, they do not have anything published stating whether it is a 45 degree (talking to them they claim it is) or a 39 degree (as their catalog seems to indicate by application: 67 330, 68-74 350--I found this out after the fact).

All I have posted here was an inquiry on HOW the engine would behave with the incorrect cam. I don't want to know if it's OK, or that it would run like crap, or any theories of why it would run bad. I am not asking for anyone to diagnose the problem. I just want to know if anyone has experienced the wrong cam, and what symptoms they had.

OK--what the engine is doing is it will stumble and stall at idle speed. I can get it to idle fine (but rough) by increasing the idle speed, but then it will bang going into gear. If adjust it so it does not bang into gear, then it tries to stall when it is in gear. To try to correct it I have gone through the carb (brand new Edelbrock 600 CFM) adjusting the floats twice now to eliminate flooding. I've installed a 1/2" wooded Edelbrock carb spacer to reduce heat in the carb. I have lowered fuel pressure down as low as I can without it running out of fuel. The distriibutor has been gone through. I have no dwell fluctuations. The coil is new and is internally resisted--the resistance wire has been deleted. I have run a hot wire from the battery to the coil and it makes no difference. It has the stock intake manifold, and I have it sealed with Permatex Aviation sealer on the gaskets, and have checked it for cracks in the heat riser passage. It is not an EGR intake manifold. I've installed shorter pushrods to eliminate excessive lifter preload.

When I called Mondello, after covering carb and distributor, they said I probably have the wrong cam, then asked if the engine was running hot, which it is. He said that confirmed the cam was wrong. The shop is willing to exchange the cam, but it will be with another Melling. I called Melling, and the guy I talked to said it could be excessive base circle run-out, but that's moot if it's the wrong cam.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 12:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Before you pull the whole motor down, put a degree wheel on it, that will remove all doubt.

My guess is that's a 39 degree cam.
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Old July 26th, 2011, 06:25 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Your guess would be correct. I got a degree wheel and checked lobe center as described on CompCams web site:

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/In.../Files/145.pdf

Melling told me the spec for intake on this cam was 108 degrees. The reading I got was 115. To see if I had the cam timing off, I checked #6, and got a reading of 103 degrees. I rechecked both to verify I had not made any mistakes and the same readings came up time and again. If the cam was out of time, both of the readings should have been the same, but the left bank is advanced and the right bank is retarded, with a spread of 12 degrees. 12 divided by 2 is 6, 45 minus 6 is 39. It's got to be a 39 degree cam. I found more info at:

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofrbd.htm...lding%20Engine

(scroll down the page about 1/3 to the section on cams and cam bank angle). Two people left comments with similar symptoms as mine.

Last edited by pontiac1; August 28th, 2011 at 03:15 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2011, 06:49 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I guess you need a cam then don't you, I do 45's if you need one.
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Old July 26th, 2011, 08:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Do you have one, or do you regrind?
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Old July 26th, 2011, 09:44 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Brand new cores, just about any lobe combo you want. Got a bunch to choose from.

Thanks
Mark
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Old July 26th, 2011, 11:40 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Please contact me at:

dieselmann@intellidog.com
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Old February 11th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
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It's been a long, convoluted road, but I've finally got it ironed out. I ended up ordering a stock replacement 45 degree cam from Supercars Unlimited, ground to the original 65 4bbl/automatic transmission specs (since the only 64 cam they showed was for a stick). Got it together and it ran worse. Took it back apart and put the degree wheel back on it and found it was 4 degrees retarded (should have degreed it before assembling). Installed an adjustable timing set and got the cam set up correctly. It still had the stumbling idle, but it no longer acts like it's vapor locked on a hot start. The only oscilliscope I have access to is a Fluke lab scope, which has a fairly poor ignition patter display (everyone has gotten rid of their old Sun scopes!), and found I had an intermittent double spark from the coil. Bit the bullet and swapped out the points for an Accel points eliminator kit. The stubling was cured and I was able to get the engine to idle where it should, but it would intermittently misfire. Hooked up the lab scope again and found #4 showed a negative spark spike. Swapped a couple wires, and the spike followed the wire--less than 500 miles on the wire set. NAPA exchanged the spark plug wire set (lifetime warranty), and the engine is running as it should. I'll have to wait for the weather to get warmer to see if the high temp problem is cured. I hope this helps someone else.

I need to add that the hot start problem resurfaced, although more intermittent than before. Noticed in many cases the engine would try to fire up, or would actually start, when releasing the key from the start position back to run. It turned out to be the brand new coil was taking a dump when it got hot.

Last edited by pontiac1; April 21st, 2013 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Adding info
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Old February 11th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Wow! Sounds like a series of problems that'd happen to me.

Glad you got it running!

... And thanks for letting us know how it turned out!

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Old February 11th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm glad you got this worked out too. I followed this thread last summer..glad you cared to update it and let us know.
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Old February 11th, 2012, 06:30 PM
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