Questions about rebuilds and VIN #s and the definition of original... :D

[cogaritis]

Okay, so I've been reading up on restoring stuff. Actually, I think it was 68Tom's thread about his resto project that got me thinking...

Example A:
If you start out with car A, and car A is hit by lightning and the entire shell disintegrates (the visible sheet metal, I guess), and you replace the entire shell with a new shell (in this example, lets say the new shell was hand-crafted by yourself), is car A still considered car A? Is it a new car? Is it considered original?

Example B:
The same exact scenario as Example A, but the new shell was taken from a donor car.

Example C:
You start out with car A. You strip car A to the very bone. As you work your way up, you replace any parts necessary with hand-crafted parts. Is this still considered car A? Is it a new car? Is it considered original?

Example D:
Same as C, but the parts are not handcrafted, they came from a donor car.

Just trying to wrap my head around this one. Thanks!

D

[Jamesbo]

I believe the 2 points you're not considering in the 'swapping of shells." are what/which trim [cowl] tag goes with which and what/which vin tag goes with what/which.

Sheet metal changing/swapping is one thing, ID changing is quite another

You're wading into some legally sensitive waters

[cogaritis]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

I believe the 2 points you're not considering in the 'swapping of shells." are what/which trim [cowl] tag goes with which and what/which vin tag goes with what/which.

Sheet metal changing/swapping is one thing, ID changing is quite another

You're wading into some legally sensitive waters

That's cool, I need to know this stuff.

I'll look up some of the terms you just mentioned in the Olds wiki.

[cogaritis]

I'm not sure if this is a hot topic or not (I don't want to start a fire), but I'm just learning this stuff and I don't mean to cause any problems.
---------------------------------------

I did a search on the Oldsmobile Wiki and I couldn't find anything related to VIN numbers or cowl tags (search results came up empty).

I did a search on google and got a vague idea of what a cowl tag is:
It's a stamped or etched metal piece attached to the firewall that harbors information about the vehicle. (Just from a quick search, not sure if they only reside on the firewall, or if they can be a sticker, or what else.)

I looked at this web page for a better idea:
http://www.69olds.com/decode.html

And here's an image of one:
http://www.siber-sonic.com/auto/olds...annotated.jpeg

Okay, cool. So now I know a lot more about the specific car. Which brings up another question: Do individual parts of the car have ID numbers stamped into them to identify them as part of the car? If so, if those individual parts have been replaced, what happens then? Does it turn into a non-numbers-matching car? Is it invalid as an original? Just looking for terms and stuff...

---- I have read that the factory would produce non-number-matching vehicles. ---- Hmm, anyone have a good read on that?

-----------------------------

Then I did another search on VIN numbers. A VIN number is basically a serial number for that car. They are unique. I'm assuming this is similar to a social security number (as an example for better understanding).

I was able to find on the same page (http://www.69olds.com/decode.html) an example of a 1969 VIN number.

...

Wait, lets back up. I did a search on VIN numbers and the wiki page said there was no standard for VINs until about 1980. (I forget the exact number.) Okay, back to the 1969 VIN.

...

So the VIN has a lot of information on it and I've read that the engines have a (partial?) VIN stamped into them as well. I'm not sure where the VIN tag sits on a '69 442, I'm not sure how many tags there are, and I'm not sure what other parts, if any, share the same VIN.

-----------

So that about sums up my small search. I guess after the above questions have been answered, I'll have a better idea of what to look for next.

Thanks!

[cogaritis]

Oh, and another question.

Car A was destroyed and the only thing left was the VIN number. If you replace everything exactly to the T so that it matched the VIN number, do you have a new Car A? Just wondering. Thanks!

[2blu442]

I'm not real comfortable with where your going on this...

The title of the car references the vin number on the dash or door jam for the mid-60's cars. If you swap the vin number then it looks like your illegally changing the title to a different car. Now if you say your car is very rusty how much of it can you change before you lost the "original" car that the title is attached to, I can't answer that question. There are other places on the car that have the vin number stamped in it, and as you have discussed the trim tag shows what the original car came equipped with and where it was built. So be careful with what your planning to do.

Many years ago I was at the big Portland Oregon swap meet. A buddy of mine had friend selling a 1970 Challanger or 'Cuda that was a convertible, 4 speed, 440 6 pack, etc. etc. car. Something like 7 or 8 built that way, I don't remember for sure. During the middle of the swap meet the Fed's swooped in, loaded the car on a trailer and hauled it away to inspect it. The story I was told is that the car had been purchased from someone on the East Coast. That someone had been caught changing numbers and fabricating supposedly "rare" cars to sell at inflated prices. The Feds carefully took his car apart looking for the vin numbers that are stamped in various places. His car turned out to be correct and not a fake, but that was their concern.

I have no problem putting 442 emblems on a Cutlass and bolting on fun options like the dual gate or converting it to a 4 speed. I have a real problem with someone selling a car AS a 442 when they know it came from the factory as a Cutlass.

So all that to say yes you can swap over fenders, replace a quarter panel, etc. But at some point if your going to unscrew the radiator cap, then roll a different car under that cap and screw it on, then call it the same car your going too far. I can't tell you where that line is, only to be careful if your flirting with trying to find out exactly where it is. My 2 cents..... John

[cogaritis]

Originally Posted by 2blu442

I'm not real comfortable with where your going on this...

The title of the car references the vin number on the dash or door jam for the mid-60's cars. If you swap the vin number then it looks like your illegally changing the title to a different car. Now if you say your car is very rusty how much of it can you change before you lost the "original" car that the title is attached to, I can't answer that question. There are other places on the car that have the vin number stamped in it, and as you have discussed the trim tag shows what the original car came equipped with and where it was built. So be careful with what your planning to do.

Ah, I see. This is a touchy subject.

For my own protection, I want to know what is legal and what is not. I want to be knowledgeable about the subject when I go looking for cars - your example was a perfect example. I don't want to deal with anything shady. I'm a very open and honest person, and I would like to know exactly what I'm doing and how it works.

Thanks for your help.

[csstrux]

Originally Posted by cogaritis

Oh, and another question.

Car A was destroyed and the only thing left was the VIN number. If you replace everything exactly to the T so that it matched the VIN number, do you have a new Car A? Just wondering. Thanks!

Others have a different view on this, but you raise a valid point. What ,essentially, is the difference between replacing every panel on a car and just replacing the shell. Personally and this is strictly my own opinion, if the shell is obtained legally ie a stripped shell from a bone yard that is perfect why cut it apart and reassemble it around a rusted out one. The shell IMHO is no different then the quarter, regardless of the model. In other words if you have a 442 holiday coupe and the shell is junk and you find a holiday coupe shell and install the shell to the 442 chassis and reassemble the car I don't see a difference beyond labor savings. again stressing both vehicles were obtained legally and you are not attempting to fake a rare car for gain. You already have the car(442) do you fab and raplace all the sheetmetal save the cowl...or do you get a solid shell. I know what I would do. That said others feel differently, and strongly with valid points to their arguments as well so which came first? the chicken...or the egg?

[wmachine]

The term most commonly used now is "rebody" Which does NOT carry the original identity of the car, I don't car what anybody tells you. Those that claim is does have a vested interest to believe and promote that belief. In other words, for the most it is because they did it themselves or have one that was done. As always, nothing wrong wrong with a rebody if you don't mess with the numbers.
I will continue to say it:There is one reason and one reason only to alter numbers on a car: FRAUD

[cogaritis]

Aye, wmachine, I've read your phrase? on a few threads now. Definitely understood, but the numbers should not change on a rebody, correct? Unless each piece of the car has an ID pertaining to that specific vehicle... do some parts have that? I believe the engine does, which raises another question. If the engine was replaced, what would the car be called/considered then? (Assume the new engine was an aftermarket engine of some sort.)

Thanks guys, lots of good stuff in here.

[Jamesbo]

IMHO you're asking Olds 506 questions w/o passing Olds 101

This vin/cowl/rebody stuff is not what you can clearly grasp w/o knowing the funadamentals [i.e. What is a vin/cowl/matching numbers, etc]

Take a few steps back...................and "eschew obfuciation"

[cogaritis]

It's all very exciting to learn about so I just kind of learn something and want to learn more, and more, and more... Hell, I don't even know how drum brakes work. (One could always guess though, lmao)

[cogaritis]

Mmm, thought I'd add this though.

Most "I want to buy this car" posts generally deal with this type of information. I guess I figured that's one of the places to start - what does all this mean and what's it for? I HATE being ripped off. It's unfortunate that there are so many douche bags in the world.

Dustin

[csstrux]

Originally Posted by wmachine

I will continue to say it:There is one reason and one reason only to alter numbers on a car: FRAUD

At the risk of starting an argument (which is not my intent) How would one approach this from the other end of the spectrum? Say the car is an F85 and the shell is a 442. You would not suddenly have a 442 would you? Where exactly is the heart of the car? In Wisconsin any how, you must have a clean title to register a car, and that is exceedingly difficult if not outright impossible to obtain from a salvage yard. I have not done a re-body nor do I own one. I see your concern and am asking with the utmost respect. I would have sent this via PM and may be opening myself up for public embarrassment, but feel this should be considered openly and is pertinent to the hobby. Admittedly the likelihood of a hero car being restored is infinitely greater than a base model, but still to me its the chassis and components that make the car...not the shell.

After rereading this I thought I should add that either way the car is devalued IMO as it no longer is original, and had not made that explicitly clear in my original post.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by csstrux

After rereading this I thought I should add that either way the car is devalued IMO as it no longer is original, and had not made that explicitly clear in my original post.

You are making not good, but excellent points that are quite valid, not starting an argument.
Part of the trouble we have here is that our vocabulary fails us by not giving us specific meaning to things. So we have terms like "original" and "numbers matching" floating around. And the word "correct", though not well defined itself, is hardly used.
This whole situation is not new to me, I've been looking at and evaluating it for the last 20 years, and as a few friends of mine can tell you, I've said for many years that this was going to become a real mess in the future, and it really has.
Without covering more now about what constitutes a car "still being a 442", suffice to say that you are dead on when you say "either way the car is devalued IMO as it no longer is original".

[cogaritis]

Very good information guys. Thanks.

[daves62]

To start Id like to say this is just my opinion.
OK say my frame is rusted out i replace it my car is still the same car.
you change the motor its still the same car albeit not origanal.
same with every other part of the car. the shell is the hart of the car. change any part of a car its still the same car till you change the body.
you can put all the 442 parts you want on a cutlass and its still a cutlass If that's what the Vin on the cab says.

so I guess as long as you don't remove a Vin from its origanal cab its still the same car not necessarily origanal but still the same car.

[MN71W30]

My 71 W30 was the only car I ever checked the frame numbers on and the came out right. They are easy to see and if I ever buy another old car I would take the time to check them. A shell change would be harder to idenify. I saw some fishy VIN tags on some cars at Barrett Jackson last winter. You could see the hexagon rivets were not in exactly the same spot as the impressions that were made by the original rivets. It was a Hemi car and nobody seemed to care anyway. I haven't even heard it mentioned by the commentators. I don't think they really want to know what is going on.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by daves62

To start Id like to say this is just my opinion.
OK say my frame is rusted out i replace it my car is still the same car.
you change the motor its still the same car albeit not origanal.
same with every other part of the car. the shell is the hart of the car. change any part of a car its still the same car till you change the body.
you can put all the 442 parts you want on a cutlass and its still a cutlass If that's what the Vin on the cab says.

so I guess as long as you don't remove a Vin from its origanal cab its still the same car not necessarily origanal but still the same car.

There are many scenarios of how a car can be changed that go well beyond what you've said, and some really do challenge the "is it still a ......?" question. Legally, a VIN tag can't be altered, so if you change the body, it keeps the VIN and the basic "identity" of the donor body. And the arguments go on from there, though, and believe me I've heard them all. cogaritis was starting to see possibilities and seeing how they create some real questions.

[ent72olds]

To further cloud the issue, and IMO, it really isn't that clouded! I will keep to myself as I don't want to offend anyone on this forum who may have put a lot of money and hard work into their car! How about these examples.....I believe Dynacorn now offers a complete A-Body shell.....somebody has a bad shell, and rivets their tag on the new shell! What is this car now? My Cutlass had the usual rot at the base of the windshield/top of the cowl and dash....very extensive! I replaced the whole top of the dash and cowl at the factory seams, with a good used dash from a 442! I DRILLED OUT THE RIVETS from the new and old pieces, and re-riveted the tag from my car into the new 442 dash! Being the VIN will read a Cutlass nobody will care(although you cant tell a '72 Cutlass 442 by VIN!?) is this going to make a difference? I'm not hiding anything! But if anyone were to look at the tag, they would be able to see it was ALTERED!
As far as 68TOM, I know he is building his car as a 442 and is calling it a 442, but as far as I understand, he hasn't swapped the tags? Nothing wrong with that! Lastly, I must agree with Kurt's thinking. Anybody doing anything to a car they wouldn't admit to a potential buyer or authorities or even insurance co's for that matter, is a problem. I would hate to see our cars get classified w/Mopars and Camaros/Chevelles!

[cogaritis]

Once again, good thoughts and concerns. Thanks everyone.

[Run to Rund]

In the old days when the cars were new, you could order a new body shell from GMPD. You could order every part from GMPD. I've seen "restored" 66s that were "new metal" from the mid line on down so to speak, everything rusted out. Is that better than a new shell done correctly? You could order a new frame for years after they were built, so is it OK to change the frame? Lots of questions, and as noted above, I think there is wiggle room so long as there is no fraud in representation of the final product.

GROUP 10.001 SHELL ASSY., BODY
Note: information pertaining to availability and prices of body shells will be furnished upon request. Body shells are less paint, trim, glass, hardware, instruments, doors and compartment lid. They are shipped F.O.B. Lansing, Michigan plus crating charge.

And what the heck is a "clone?" It seems to imply fraud. If you add a factory option, either the dealership or owner, does your car become a "clone?" Do you have a power steering clone car, or a radio clone car? Well, the 442 was an option most years (L69, L78, W29), not a series reflected in the VIN. W30 was always an option, and for 66-7 that option was available in kit form (Track Pack) intended for dealer/owner installation, blessed by Olds and GMPD. I feel the correct terms are "conversion" or "dealer/owner installed option" in these cases.

[csstrux]

Much better presented than i managed.

[daves62]

SO were does the old car end and the new car begin?
I totally agree we should be able to repair are dash area if need be.
BUT how can the average Joe tell the difference between honest Joe and
I stole this car buy it trust me

[Allan R]

I believe the original question was an attempt to know how to approach the issues of what is considered original, restored, modified or cloned. I also believe that everyone on this forum knows and accepts that the VIN attached to a car REMAINS with the car even after death it do part. (unless as WMACHINE correctly points out, the outcome is fraudulent representation). That being said, there are most certainly those out there who could give a crap whether they work on the legal side of the auto industry or not.

I consider original to mean: as the car left the factory. Nothing more nothing less. Not even a new paint job or windshield. Yes, that's a purist point of view, but that's my take on "original". So my car? No it's not original. It has many of its original parts, but it has been restored and/or modified significantly with "period correct options" from how it came out of the factory. And that's exactly what I tell anyone who asks about it. I also represent it that way if it goes to a car show. Anyone who checks the original VIN and GM broadcast sheet or the GM build sheet will know that I'm representing the car honestly.

I consider the theme of this post to mean: what can I do to either restore, modify or clone my A Body? Again, as most of you would likely agree, that means everything from NOS parts, to resto parts, patch panels, repro options etc to match the theme of the car being presented. However, with one basic catch: Honest representation of what the car started as and how it ends up. NO VIN SWITCHING.

cogaritis, a car and it's VIN do not get parted, even if when donor cars are involved. If you are thinking that swapping the VIN to a better body is the way to go, I suggest you rethink your strategy. Work with the better body and keep the VIN plates where they belong. As mentioned in this post by several CO members whose opinions are extremely valid and valued, the legal issues are significant. So what happens if you don't get caught? That's the rub isn't it? Let's say you found a "rare" VIN and you knew this because you decoded it and found the shell from 1 of 243 made? Keep the shell and its VIN tag together. Yes, you can remove the VIN tag to clean up and restore the mounting area, just put it back in the same shell. Use a picture and docuentation library to restore and authenticate your progress.

You realize that all these threads are monitored not just by us on the forum, but anyone who wants to look in? Keep your project and ethics on a legal groundwork and you'll never have to worry.

I'm sure that many of us on this site understand SOME of what you are trying to get at, although it sometimes comes out as sounding somewhat questionable largely due to the nature of legality you're "stirring" up. There's really nothing to stir if you don't open the pot. It's much easier to discuss in person than to try and put all your thoughts into type. When you're posting, think about how the general population will react to "controversial" topics and approach them sensibly. A direct question is ok, but it should also not leave an open or ambiguous road to follow. So, good luck on Car A.

[cogaritis]

Originally Posted by Allan R

I believe the original question was an attempt to know how to approach the issues of what is considered original, restored, modified or cloned.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Allan R

That being said, there are most certainly those out there who could give a crap whether they work on the legal side of the auto industry or not.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Allan R

I consider original to mean: as the car left the factory.

That's a fair definition.

Originally Posted by Allan R

cogaritis, a car and it's VIN do not get parted, even if when donor cars are involved. If you are thinking that swapping the VIN to a better body is the way to go, I suggest you rethink your strategy.

I'm new to cars (at least restoring/modifying/cloning) and I have no idea what's right, what's wrong, what are accepted practices, what are unaccepted practices, and what's plain illegal.

I have no strategy yet. I'm doing research to make an informed decision.

Originally Posted by Allan R

You realize that all these threads are monitored not just by us on the forum, but anyone who wants to look in? Keep your project and ethics on a legal groundwork and you'll never have to worry.

Mhmm, of course. I've dealt with a lot of shady people in the past involving reptiles, an old hobby of mine. There are a lot of laws that vary by country, state, and even county. I would have definitely broken some of them had I not done my research first.

I'm trying to think of a way to state my feelings on illegal stuff but it's always too long or doesn't make sense without a full explanation. For lack of better words, it's just not worth it.

Originally Posted by Allan R

So, good luck on Car A.

Thanks! Maybe Car A will be a 1969 Oldsmobile 442!

[daves62]

well I guess since everyone here at CO is honest dont do anything youre not willing to tell the buyer you did

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by cogaritis

I'm new to cars (at least restoring/modifying/cloning) and I have no idea what's right, what's wrong, what are accepted practices, what are unaccepted practices, and what's plain illegal. I have no strategy yet. I'm doing research to make an informed decision. ....... There are a lot of laws that vary by country, state, and even county..... I would have broken... had I not done my research first.

I'm trying to think of a way to state my feelings on illegal stuff but it's always too long or doesn't make sense without a full explanation. For lack of better words, it's just not worth it. .... Maybe Car A will be a 1969 Oldsmobile 442!

Uh, yeah, ok....I think I know what you're getting at. I am really glad that all this debate so far is just for the sake of testing the waters in a new hobby. Doesn't make sense to get bucked off the horse before you put your foot in the stirrup.

I think we all will be looking forward to seeing what it turns out to be. One thing you should be aware of, if not already. Car restoration, cloning or rodding is a passion and at some points a real money pit. Don't forget to research the financial aspect of your quest too ! There will be those days when you'll just want to walk away, and those that money can't buy when it comes to the pride of ownership angle.

[daves62]

The hobby of cars is a real money pit. if you are looking to make money buy something else if you love the style of your particular car fix it enjoy it love it if you make money when its all over you did better than most of us
but this is a hobby of love passion and sacrifice nothing more.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by Allan R

I believe the original question was an attempt to know how ...................or ambiguous road to follow. So, good luck on Car A.

Very well put Allen! Some clear solid thinking.

[68Tom]

And just to make clear, the Cutlass S VIN and body tag are still on the car I am completing. That is also what I've registered. After all the issues I had, I honestly didn't give a crap about the stupid VIN/body tag. I just wanted a cool car that I could drive. Still sort of feel that way.

Aside from $ issues, I feel much too much is made of "oh, your car isn't number's matching". As long as you're honest with what's been done to it (engine, transmission swapped, color changed, etc), that's all that matters.

However, as stated above, switching VIN #'s is illegal.

[cogaritis]

Cool, thanks guys.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by 68Tom

Aside from $ issues, I feel much too much is made of "oh, your car isn't number's matching".

And how, Tom!
And matching the numbers in a case like that not only doesn't make it right, it makes it hard on everybody else by putting altered (fraudulant) cars out on the market. Isn't that a nice contribution to hobby!

[ent72olds]

[quote=ent72olds;97622]
...As far as 68TOM, I know he is building his car as a 442 and is calling it a 442, but as far as I understand, he hasn't swapped the tags? Nothing wrong with that! ... QUOTE]

I figured as much Tom.....wish you would have made it to the Nats!

[MN71W30]

The cars are more fun without the original engines. I had an original 1970 SS454 Chevelle that caused alot of worry. I worried about throwing a rod, someone stealing the air cleaner, the carb etc. My old 65 Biscayne heinz 57 is a blast.
"The guy that puts the most miles on them wins"

[Eddie Hansen]

I remember reading similar threads, and that is an interesting conudrum with the New A body shell now being available too, for me personally if you had an original 442 that turned into a rust bucket ( remember that guy who bought the nice 68 442 4 speed car was doing the resto right and after having it blasted turned out it was beyond salvage!! he had an orginal 442 all numbers matching etc I personally wouldn't have any problem with him adding all or as much of his stuff from the original 442 and even changing the vin plate, but I also remember some snapper head selling the title and vin plate for a gto and just the title and vin plate on ebay!!! somebody grabs that then he buys a tempest or lemans swaps it out and voila an instant investment quality car, I would "LIKE" to think most guys wouldn't do something like that but the reality is quite different, The prices of muscle cars infect the enthusiast with greed, figuring he will just flip this one and use the money to buy a real one etc...
Funny enough I even see "clones" being given the thumbs up on Muscle car review magazine..... I dunno I think i like the idea that just build your car the way you want to and enjoy it...

[MN71W30]

Originally Posted by Eddie Hansen

I remember reading similar threads, and that is an interesting conudrum with the New A body shell now being available too, for me personally if you had an original 442 that turned into a rust bucket ( remember that guy who bought the nice 68 442 4 speed car was doing the resto right and after having it blasted turned out it was beyond salvage!! he had an orginal 442 all numbers matching etc I personally wouldn't have any problem with him adding all or as much of his stuff from the original 442 and even changing the vin plate, but I also remember some snapper head selling the title and vin plate for a gto and just the title and vin plate on ebay!!! somebody grabs that then he buys a tempest or lemans swaps it out and voila an instant investment quality car, I would "LIKE" to think most guys wouldn't do something like that but the reality is quite different, The prices of muscle cars infect the enthusiast with greed, figuring he will just flip this one and use the money to buy a real one etc...
Funny enough I even see "clones" being given the thumbs up on Muscle car review magazine..... I dunno I think i like the idea that just build your car the way you want to and enjoy it...

I remember that post as well.
I remember thinking that the kid may have been able to do it legally if he had changed the cowl and checked with the DMV of legal options like a rebuilt title, but he took alot of flak from the purests and went along with their advice. It seems a little disingenious to tell a kid to throw away thousands of dollars to help insure the gene pool of 442's when the real reason may be to to help protect their own investments or personal convictions that not everyone shares.
My 2 cents

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by MN71W30

........ to help protect their own investments or personal convictions that not everyone shares.
My 2 cents

But just to be fair, consider this. Why is a 442 more expensive than a Cutlass?
Because it is rarer *and* more desirable.
So someone buys a car that 1 of 100 made. Why shouldn't he protect his investment? When a car is gone, it can't be reconstructed from numbers. So why try to make "another" of the 100? Or 200 more of "the 100"?
That is what makes it special to begin with, is that it is one of 100.
And here's the real smoking gun: If it really *doesn't* matter, why try to make it like 1 of the 100 to begin with?

I'm not directing this at you, MN71W30, but it is not a just a matter of personal convictions. If you (anybody) don't believe in original cars, fine. Just don't mess it up for anyone else that does.
How would you (anybody) like it if you shelled out their hard earned cash for an original car just to find out that it isn't.

[cogaritis]

Ah, I'm starting to see both sides a lot clearer now.

I can see why a restored car would cost less than an original. I also have a good idea of what original means now, too.

This is kind of like the reptile trade in regards to people injecting bad apples into the bunch, knowingly or not. An example of this would be inbreeding.. which is controversial all on its own. In order to get a certain color or "morph" of animal, the genetics require it to be inbred. I've seen people breed father to daughter and granddaughter, etc., just because it's convenient and will make more money and take less time (we're still talking about animals here, lol). This can sometimes insert a genetic defect into a line of animals that may never be able to be bred out. An example of this would be snakes with one eye ball or a kinked back.

I mean no offense by that, just noting the similarities and how it makes sense to me.

Dustin

[Eddie Hansen]

Originally Posted by cogaritis

"......we're still talking about animals here, lol".....An example of this would be snakes with one eye ball or a kinked back.Dustin

Not sure about that.... seems I might have dated that woman LOL.... it was last call and I was sitting sipping my umpteenth brew with my jacks chaser and..... well ya know there aint no such thing as an ugly woman at closing time and heck ya can't let one eyeball and a kinked back get in the way of true love LOL....ohhhhh never mind it is a long story ....


seriously I see the point of keeping the " purity" of the breed as it were but if you Owned an original, and needed a complete new shell to make it really really right then I still think it is still a pure 442, no it isn't all original, and I agree the builder should put all the cards on the table but it should also be "ok" for the guy to make his car the best he can,just as if he put repop quarters on it, now if he cloned it and tried to pass it off as something it's not well this is wrong as well... like I said a conundum ( sp?)